167 replies to this topic

[L3mming2]

kapusta11, on 21 August 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

ED is just way too restrictive. All mech builds become the same. All energy lights are pretty much stuck with 30 damage small/medium laser alpha. All energy mediums except for Nova are stuck with either 3 large class lasers or 2 PPCs.All heavies and assaults are stuck with either 20 dps build (capped by energy regen rate), or 30 damage long range alpha build (gauss, peeps etc) or 30x2 alpha build. EVERYTHING in-between gets nuked. No more laser Blackjacks or Enforcers with 40 something alpha, apparently that's too OP. No more SRM + cSPL Mad Dogs and Timberwolves. Executioner gets shafted too.

It's much easier and creates more gameplay diversity to max out one weapon option with current GH (like put 4 SRM6 lanchers) and then add something else (AC20 or cSPL or LPLs) on top of that than to max out the same 30 effective damage caps on every single mech.

you need to go to the mech lab and test some more, ive found a host of builds that work gr8 and dont fit your description. examples boom jagers/hamers/rifelman AC40 for 17 heat (gr8 but only around 10 dps) 9srm4archer DPS misile build witch morks well (just dont alpha...) 5spl 5asrm4 mad dog... ebony jag with 2 uac20's if u put them in a chainfire groop they will fire without penalty... and there are so much more...

ps; dualGR jaguars with ERSL backup, 3ppc shadowhawk 2k,s 5 srm4 jenner2c's, 3LL + 6 mg arow, 1ac20 2ml BJ's, ac20 2ml hunchback...

3srm4+ac10's work quite well to, ...

Edited by L3mming2, 21 August 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[kapusta11]

Sable, on 21 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

the ones who like ghost heat are just those afraid of change.

And the ones who like ED have no clue about current state of the game. See how that works?

[davoodoo]

Kaptain, on 21 August 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

Something that can easily be fixed by changing weapon draw values.

I for one far prefer the simple mechanics of ED vs the massive chart needed to understand GH.

At which point you start to change ed into another ghost heat...

I dont find it any simple, its convoluted and doesnt provide any info if you didnt dig deeply into patch notes and you didnt do extensive testing yourself.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 08:51 AM.

[L3mming2]

davoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

At which point you start to change ed into another ghost heat...

I dont find it any simple, its convoluted and doesnt provide any info if you didnt dig deeply into patch notes and you didnt do extensive testing yourself.

everything you need to know
-total power 30
-replenichment 20/s
-all weapons exept spread splash 1draw/1damage
-splash en spread damage 0.75draw/1damage

now compare this to the multiple pages of tables you nead to calculate you GH..

[davoodoo]

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

everything you need to know
-total power 30
-replenichment 20/s
-all weapons exept spread splash 1draw/1damage
-splash en spread damage 0.75draw/1damage

now compare this to the multiple pages of tables you nead to calculate you GH..

Oh and what will be changed value for medium laser??
Maybe pulse lasers will get their own draw values next...
and now you get more things to remember.

Any info about gh you have in the game.
Try putting more than 3 llas or 6 mlas on is mech, you will have warning about gh...

While on ed we didnt even get what you posted in the game...

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 09:05 AM.

[kapusta11]

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

everything you need to know
-total power 30
-replenichment 20/s
-all weapons exept spread splash 1draw/1damage
-splash en spread damage 0.75draw/1damage

now compare this to the multiple pages of tables you nead to calculate you GH..

You don't need to calculate anything with GH, you just need to know how many weapons of the same type you can fire simultaneously. And with how few weapons are there in general I see no issue here.

As for ED and 1draw/1damage ratio, it will most likely be change based on weapon range so a lot of weapons will have their own modifiers just like SRMs do now and guess what? You'll have to remember them all. But that's ok, I'm sure someone will make a chart that will show how many weapons of the same type you can fire based on damage x draw modifier values so that you don't have to do the math yourself. Sounds familiar, isn't it?

Edited by kapusta11, 21 August 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[L3mming2]

davoodoo, on 21 August 2016 - 09:03 AM, said:

Oh and what will be changed value for medium laser??
Maybe pulse lasers will get their own draw values next...
and now you get more things to remember.

Any info about gh you have in the game.
Try putting more than 3 llas or 6 mlas on is mech, you will have warning about gh...

While on ed we didnt even get what you posted in the game...

its PTS, they havent changed the CD of the weapons on display in the mech lab for example... once the values are desided they will... you are on a test server not a finiched product..

kapusta11, on 21 August 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

You don't need to calculate anything with GH, you just need to know how many weapons of the same type you can fire simultaneously. And with how few weapons are there in general I see no issue here.

As for ED and 1draw/1damage ratio, it will most likely be change based on weapon range so a lot of weapons will have their own modifiers just like SRMs do now and guess what? You'll have to remember them all. But that's ok, I'm sure someone will make a chart that will show how many weapons of the same type you can fire based on damage x draw modifier values so that you don't have to do the math yourself. Sounds familiar, isn't it?

i'm not so sure they will, example, the ac5/uac5's where to powerfull in the ED system.. they nerfed them by giving them a longer CD and more heat... same with GR CD... i hope they continue like that, dont change the system, balance the weapons..

Edited by L3mming2, 21 August 2016 - 09:12 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

I don't know what to think or vote. All i know is that ghost heat has had it's chance and energy draw has only recently seen the light of day.
I don't like either one much but i have seen about half a dozen ideas that improved on the energy draw and one that combined GH and ED to decent effect.
I'd pick one of our own versions of energy draw and to be honest my own idea is far from being the best idea here.

We got Navid A1's idea which is very easy to balance.
Ammo Reload Capacity... An Improved Approach Favoring Mixed Builds.

LordNothing's idea which has this really flexible way of doing things.
What If We Have 3 Bars?

[Atreides76]

Sable, on 21 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

the ones who like ghost heat are just those afraid of change.

I disagree IMO the one's who dislike it are the one's who want a wide variety of mechs and builds, ED seems to encourage the opposite.

[kapusta11]

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

i'm not so sure they will, example, the ac5/uac5's where to powerfull in the ED system.. they nerfed them by giving them a longer CD and more heat... same with GR CD... i hope they continue like that, dont change the system, balance the weapons..

In other words: rebalance the whole game and quirks just so ED can work properly. Yeah, based on PGI's record it will take them only another couple of years.

[L3mming2]

kapusta11, on 21 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

In other words: rebalance the whole game and quirks just so ED can work properly. Yeah, based on PGI's record it will take them only another couple of years.

current weapon balance on life is horible, lbx's, mg's AC2's are crap LPL, GR, UAC5's and UAC10's CSPL are king...

if we lose current weapon "ballance" we lose depresingly little.. and IMO the reason WB on life is so bad is because it hinges on a broken system, you cant fix the symtoms without adressing the underlying cause...

[kapusta11]

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

current weapon balance on life is horible, lbx's, mg's AC2's are crap LPL, GR, UAC5's and UAC10's CSPL are king...

if we lose current weapon "ballance" we lose depresingly little.. and IMO the reason WB on life is so bad is because it hinges on a broken system, you cant fix the symtoms without adressing the underlying cause...

Something tells me all those worthless weapons that you've mentioned won't be of any use in the future either. PGI had countless opportunities to fix them but they didn't, actually they even nerfed MGs and AC2s in the past. AC2s retained their TT heat despite having a drastically inceased RoF too.

It's not the system, those weapons are bad because their weapon stats suck.

Edited by kapusta11, 21 August 2016 - 09:38 AM.

[L3mming2]

kapusta11, on 21 August 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Something tells me all those worthless weapons you're talking about won't be of any use in the future either. PGI had countless opportunities to fix them but they didn't, actually they even nerfed MGs in the past. And it's not the system, those weapons are bad because their weapon stats suck.

they managed to make flamers usefull, MG's on the PTS are good as they have no ED and are very usfull suplements fore some mechs because of that.

and the weapon stats are subject to change, look at the AC5's ... there is a point between the current CD and a CD of 1.5s where a LBX10 is good, not OP but good... the same can be said for the Heat and CD of AC2's ... UAC10s probably need a slight increase in CD but all tose adjustments are the whole reason why there is a PTS...

[davoodoo]

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

its PTS, they havent changed the CD of the weapons on display in the mech lab for example... once the values are desided they will... you are on a test server not a finiched product..

Well then we only got pts and theres 0 info here...

I dont vote for what it might be in future, i vote for current iteration which i could test and experience and which got 0 info.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[kapusta11]

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

MG's on the PTS are good as they have no ED and are very usful suplements for some mechs because of that.

Are you serious? Ok I guess I'm done here, this is pointless.

[Tiantara]

- Im reading all that and still cant understand...
Lets take some longranged mech on Caustic:

1. Kodiak with 4 or 3 ERPPC. (Basic skills\Elite)
- 2+2 fire - 3rd shot = overheat and engine damage.
- 2+1 fire - 4th shot = overheat and engine damage.
- Chainfire 1+1+1 - 8th shot = overheat and shutdown.

2. STK-4N (Full armor\300STD engine\ 9DHS\ Basic Skills) 6xERLL
- 3+3 - 4rd shot = overheat and shutdown
- 2+2+2 - 7th shot = overheat.
- Chainfire - 19th shot = overheat.

Time to cooldown, time of weapon delay, gives faster mech shorter distance and take attention of longrange (because in close combat they not good). Make possible tactic when all running for fast mech and leave longrange unprotected.
Most of FW maps - hot. And mech take more heat.
Most of Quick game maps - cold. So new players don't get bad feelings about game dynamic when brand new own mech become overheated garbage with nearly impossible mechanic to play (I don,t even mention about winning). Its fast light mode where everymech should be playable. Every mech. Especially - which cost real money or sold in pack for $. Even if it in stock build. No need to push new players wait until they can buy new engin and understand that whole chassis just wrong, not his hands. You buy, you play, better play - better mech, better understanding - moving to FW, higher tier and like that.
Now - most of mech playable only after hard work under build and some mech even after that bad and no one play them. New players don't know that. They take what they like as it looks and can take negative emotions about chosen mech.
In that case - better take alphastrike in cockpit glass, than blow own mech after overheat or have no possibility to anyhow harm enemy because you got hot map and your mech hot in stock build as devils kitchen.

As I think - Energy Draw definitely need some tweaks and changing in energy pool, points recheck, some weapon heat rescale and cooldowns. But it gives feel of action and already make some old mech better to play.

[L3mming2]

thttp://mwomercs.com/news/2016/08/1613-energy-draw-public-test-session

you had to go past this page to download it, if u did not deem it nesesary to read the notes of the PTS then maybe you are not the kind of tester they are looking for...

[Tiantara]

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

current weapon balance on life is horible, lbx's, mg's AC2's are crap

- AC2 could be better weapon if weights less or take less hardpoint. Nope? LBX pretty good weapon to splash\crit hit instead of slow AC10 which take more slots as well. That weapon created for killing small\medium mech, wreck components without armor and shake enemy mech. MG best in close combat, in zombie mode, in duel light vs light \ medium vs light. Just like flamers.
Another word - that players chose damage over tactic. DPS over kills. Fast long fire over piloting and brawling. Ant to change that - maybe can help more reward for tactical move than DMG in whole.

[L3mming2]

kapusta11, on 21 August 2016 - 09:41 AM, said:

Are you serious? Ok I guess I'm done here, this is pointless.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b9b516de4e410d4

on the PTS this is not a bad build ... due to its mg's (dont forget the 25%cd reduction on them)

thats 6.24 heatles dps of the mg's alone on a mastered mech. in a world where every other weapon has been nerfed by 15% and alphas are much lower, yes that helps a load...

Edited by L3mming2, 21 August 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[davoodoo]

Players chose what kills effectively.

If boats are easy to use then they increase chance that your fire will hit enemy which in turn increases dmg done which decreases amount of time enemy stays alive under fire.

You cant root alphas out from the game when you have so much cover on the place and cooldowns are so long.
Its obvious choice to wisely use ppfld when you have only few seconds of contact with enemy before they fall back to cover...

L3mming2, on 21 August 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b9b516de4e410d4

on the PTS this is not a bad build ... due to its mg's (dont forget the 25%cd reduction on them)

Would rather use this
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6d77882597ba5ea

Less face time so i dont need to stare at my enemy at 120m with xl engine in a medium mech to put dmg in. This btw will more likely end with me being dead rather than enemy...

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 10:09 AM.