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Energy Draw Vs Zero Convergence


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#1 Gamuray

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 05:27 AM

This thread is going to review the goal that ghost heat, energy draw, and zero-convergence are supposed to address, and how energy draw measures up to a zero-convergence solution.

Yes, I know energy draw is in testing and subject to change. My issues with it aren't things that can be addressed without making the system overly complicated. Read on for what the issues are, OR stop by the intermittent TL:DR's that I provide for summaries.

Addressing Implementation "Issues" for Zero-Convergence (which don't actually exist)
Spoiler


(As a small note. When I say mixed build, I don't mean a few kinds of lasers. I mean more like lasers+srms. Or lasers+ac's. Or ac's+missiles. Something where the weapon leads/projectiles don't sync up and are thus, not as accurate. PPC's + Lasers isn't much of an issue, whereas PPC's+Gauss or Lasers+Gauss is because the lead differences are smaller.)

Ghost Heat:
On to the goal. Ghost heat was implemented to prevent boating and limit pinpoint alphas by discouraging people from taking many of a single weapon type. This led to synchronizing builds with multiple, similar enough weapons to get the same or greater pinpoint alpha damage.

Energy Draw:
Energy draw attempts to deal with this by being, essentially, an "all encompassing" version of ghost heat. The issue arises where it punishes a well mixed build, whose alpha strike was and is entirely inaccurate, just as much as it punishes a boated build whose alpha is pinpoint, very accurate, easier to use, and leads to faster deaths much more often.

Now, if you think that you shouldn't be alpha-striking with a mixed build anyways... so what? It still doesn't need to be penalized then, because it's already ineffective compared to a boated build's alpha strike. You could say "separate weapon draws more". But then you complicate the system just as much as ghost heat was, and get back into the synergy build alphas that ghost heat didn't address (maybe to a lesser extent). Energy draw is supposed to be a more new-player friendly version, as it is "less complicated" and "more obvious" than ghost heat. Differentiating weapon draws even more takes away these few beneficial features.

Ghost Heat vs Energy Draw:
Ghost heat managed to punish boating builds without hurting mixed builds (with exception for boated ballistics), whose alpha wasn't accurate. Energy Draw, while addressing workarounds to ghost heat, doesn't manage to punish accurate boated alphas more than inaccurate, mixed build alphas. And Energy Draw STILL doesn't really address boating ballistics. In fact it doesn't actually hurt boating any more than not boating. It punishes ANY build just as much as the next. Ghost heat directed its penalties at problematic areas, whereas Energy Draw just deals out punishment to everything equally, regardless of how effective/or accurate the build may be, so long as it is sending a certain amount of damage out (even if the damage is completely ineffective).


TL:DR-Ghost heat was a penalty directed at problematic boating builds. But had workarounds. Energy draw, while it reduces workarounds (ac boats aren't as effected, since they are dps anyways) deals out punishment to any and all builds equally, even if they aren't effective with the damage they send down range.


Zero-Convergence:

Goal Addessed:
The zero convergence idea is meant to address the accuracy of alpha striking DIRECTLY, instead of attempting to only address boating (ghost heat), or only address amount of damage being sent out (the in-testing energy draw). By removing convergence other than by means of a lower arm actuator, weapon fire is not only made more realistic (as you don't have bullets coming out of barrels at weird angles, or 90 degree turning in lasers or something) it also prevents the accuracy that one gets now by boating multiple of the same weapon OR matching weapons with similar trajectories WITHOUT effective mixed loadouts, as they were already spreading damage with differently functioning weapon systems.

Randomness? Skill? New Players?
Zero-Convergence makes each weapon hit in a different spot, but DOES NOT have any kind of randomness or skill takeaway. All it does it make each weapon shoot where the weapon itself is pointing. So if you have a weapon on your shoulder and a weapon at the hip, one will impact higher than the other, spreading damage out while keeping your hits entirely predictable, and requiring NO explanation at all for new players, since the mechanic itself is clearly visible, simple, and understandable.

Workarounds?
Convergence does not have a workaround. Even a mech like the nova will have its damage spread out more. Even the laser banshee with close mounted weapons on the shoulder will spread damage more. A mech like the timberwolf may begin to seem ideal for zero convergence, as each arm can point in and the central hardpoints impact close to center, but you still don't have pinpoint accuracy, and even the timberwolf must then spread its weapons out more.

You can put more weapons in the arms to take advantage of lower arm actuators, but arms are more vulnerable and are lower mounted weapons. This also means that mechs with every weapon in a single arm have an accuracy advantage, BUT they can easily be completely disarmed (pun intended).

Risk vs Reward Building:
The only way to gain accuracy in a zero-convergence environment is taking a smaller mech (since the weapons are closer together, they impact closer together), or putting every weapon in one spot, AND OR putting all your weapons in arms with lower arm actuators. All of these have drawbacks. Smaller mechs have less armor. By putting all your weapons in one spot, you MAY gain a shield side, but you can easily have all your firepower taken away. Having all your weapons in the lower slung arms means you have to expose more of your mech, while also making you easier to disarm.

Firepower vs Accuracy Building:
You can build an assault for large firepower, a light for higher accuracy, and anything in between. Lights now gain a proper combat role as accurate shooters, whereas assaults properly shred enemy mechs faster, but do waste some firepower IF and only IF they fire everything.

Chainfire vs Alpha Striking:
You now gain a decision to make. Do I alpha strike and attempt to finish of the enemy through immense firepower, and waste heat and damage on unimportant locations, potentially failing to kill, or do I fire each set of weapons individually to focus on that component and take the target out efficiently while having more face time and risk him running away to soon? An alpha strike no longer becomes a go-to strategy to build for, as an alpha strike simply won't hit the right spot with every weapon. (unless you are a small light shooting a large assault mech. Which is perfectly fine)


TL:DR-A zero-convergence environment addresses the issue of accurate alphas directly. Boating is allowed, high alpha is allowed, but neither is inherently better anymore. It does not punish inaccurate mixed builds, because they were already inaccurate to begin with. It has no randomness, does not remove skill-based shooting whatsoever, and is easily seen and understood by newcomers. It has no workarounds. Accuracy always has a drawback of armor (light mech accuracy), location vulnerability (getting disarmed or torso'd and being combat ineffective), and time (chaining takes more face time). It brings about risk vs reward building/playstyles, firepower vs accuracy building/playstyles, and chainfire vs alphastriking is turned into a meaningful and very impactful decision, where both methods have benefits and drawbacks.


Super TL:DR-Ghost heat addresses boating only. Energy Draw addresses damage only. Zero-Convergence addresses BOTH by addressing accuracy of alpha strikes in a predictable and non-skill inhibiting fashion, than is easily seen and understood by new players. In addition, it has multiple beneficial effects on gameplay and mech building variety.

Edited by Gamuray, 21 August 2016 - 05:29 AM.


#2 Kaptain

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 07:22 AM

Do you imagine multiple cross-hairs for each location of the mech?

#3 Spleenslitta

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 07:42 AM

View PostKaptain, on 21 August 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Do you imagine multiple cross-hairs for each location of the mech?

Not necessary to imagine it at all. Here is something that might be our new crosshairs if torso convergence goes away.
Only look at crosshairs number 3. That's the only one that counts in my book.
Posted Image
Yeah...i know the drawing is crappy.
This is how crosshairs would look like from a Vindicator 1X if it had MG's in the LA, PPC in the RA, SRM6 in the LT and ML in the cockpit.
Blue is ballistics, Red is energy and green is missiles. O are the arm reticules and X are the torso reticules.
The further away you are from a target the more the reticules expand when it comes to SRM, LBX and MG's.

See how big the SRM and MG reticules are? That is how wide the spread will be.

For those that are worried that mechs with closely clustered hardpoints will get a huge advantage i got a possible solution.
Look at the Hunchback 4P for example. It has 6 energy hardpoints clustered in it's RT so it has a good advantage but that is where local heat comes in.

Let's say that mech fires all of it's weapons. Heat goes up like normal but the heat inside the RT will be much higher because that's where most of it's weapons are.
Anything inside that RT bodysection is subject to getting damaged by heat. If it had ammo in there that ammo could blow.
Yeah i know....4P's don't have ammo weapons but it's just an example.

#4 Appuagab

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 07:55 AM

Desync projectile weapons by different projectile speed and adding ballistic trajectory to ACs (and gauss?).
Add some small convergence time for lasers (reduced/removed when locked).
Lots of problems solved.

#5 Hit the Deck

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 08:29 AM

View PostSpleenslitta, on 21 August 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

Not necessary to imagine it at all. Here is something that might be our new crosshairs if torso convergence goes away.
Only look at crosshairs number 3. That's the only one that counts in my book.
Posted Image


Those individual crosshairs/circles offset from the center need to be redrawn constantly for every distance unless you want your weapons to not hit the correct point of aim. This is acceptable in space (Elite) but won't work here where your target distance is constantly changing.

#6 Spleenslitta

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 08:32 AM

View PostHit the Deck, on 21 August 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

Those individual crosshairs/circles offset from the center need to be redrawn constantly for every distance unless you want your weapons to not hit the correct point of aim. This is acceptable in space (Elite) but won't work here where your target distance is constantly changing.

That is a very good point. But it's better than nothing if convergence dissappears on torso weapons.
I do hope you got a better idea for how our new crosshairs would be.

#7 Hit the Deck

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 08:40 AM

View PostSpleenslitta, on 21 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

...
I do hope you got a better idea for how our new crosshairs would be.

I assure you that I do because it has been proposed several times in the past but it always have the same problem (how those offset x-hairs should behave).

#8 Spleenslitta

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 08:49 AM

View PostHit the Deck, on 21 August 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

I assure you that I do because it has been proposed several times in the past but it always have the same problem (how those offset x-hairs should behave).

I just had a thought. In the BT novels the mechwarriors had somewhat....bad aim. They could barelly hit a barn to tell the truth.
What if these offset crosshairs got redrawn as distance changed but they had snapto sizes.
50 meters - 100 - 300 - 500 - etc.

That way there wouldn't be a constant need to redraw every second. The slight inacuracy would be part of the lore.
If it's redrawn too often then we need fewer crosshair sizes. That's my solution for now at least till i come up with something better.

#9 Hoffenstein

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 09:20 AM

If you wanted to keep it simple, don't even redraw the size of the reticles, just use them as equivocal iron sights. Mastering your favourite Mechs will actually mean something now :D

#10 Spleenslitta

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 09:35 AM

View PostHoffenstein, on 21 August 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

If you wanted to keep it simple, don't even redraw the size of the reticles, just use them as equivocal iron sights. Mastering your favourite Mechs will actually mean something now Posted Image

You know what? You got a strong point there. I said it myself earlier.

View PostSpleenslitta, on 21 August 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

I just had a thought. In the BT novels the mechwarriors had somewhat....bad aim. They could barelly hit a barn to tell the truth.

We might want to just....take it as a part what it means to be a mechwarrior. It's part of the lore.
We are all crosseyed and can't find our own arses with a flashlight and both hands.

Oh yeah...i need to say i'm not being sarcastic. I mean it.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 21 August 2016 - 09:47 AM.


#11 davoodoo

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 09:46 AM

"Kell's critically damaged 'Mech toppled to its knees right in front of Kurita's Warhammer who then fired all weapons at Kell's Archer ("Alpha strike") at pointblank range, but miraculously missed with each and every weapon although Kell did not even move. Conversely, Kell fired his long-range missile launchers. The missiles failed to arm due to the very short range; their impact did crack open the canopy of Kurita's 'Mech, however. Kurita fired all his weapons once more, only to completely miss Kell again."

Mechwarriors doesnt really aim thesmelves, targeting system does calculations and pilot adjusts aim.
It needs to mention that targeting systems arent precise.

"The Targeting-Tracking System (TTS), also known as Advanced Fire Control system (AFCS) , is the system that controls weapons fire from a combat unit. Introduced circa 2439[1], all combat units (BattleMechs, Combat Vehicles, AeroSpace Fighters, Battle Armor, etc.) include an Advanced Fire Control system as part of their basic cockpit/command center."
"The BattleTech Rules call this system Sensors and assume the presence and functionality of this piece of equipment so no bonus is gained. In fact, a +2 Gunnery skill penalty takes effect if either of the criticals are marked off. When both criticals are marked off a BattleMech can no longer fire."

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 09:53 AM.


#12 cazidin

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:11 AM

PGI either cannot or will not implement convergence. Sorry.

#13 Gamuray

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:48 AM

View PostAppuagab, on 21 August 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

Desync projectile weapons by different projectile speed and adding ballistic trajectory to ACs (and gauss?).
Add some small convergence time for lasers (reduced/removed when locked).
Lots of problems solved.


1. Each projectile weapon already has different projectile speeds, and non-ppc, non-srm projectiles have bullet drop (gauss is hard to notice due to extreme speed)

2. Adding convergence time gives a small amount of randomness, which many people seem to be against. Even if it's just lasers. I myself want my weapons to fire predictably...

View PostKaptain, on 21 August 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

Do you imagine multiple cross-hairs for each location of the mech?


No, I don't. Right now if you lead a target with projectile weapons you don't get extra crosshairs and your weapons won't converge on the target location. I see no reason to add extra crosshairs for something that we already deal with when leading projectile weapons. One just has to keep in mind where the weapons are on their mech, which again, already comes into play while leading.

View PostHoffenstein, on 21 August 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

If you wanted to keep it simple, don't even redraw the size of the reticles, just use them as equivocal iron sights. Mastering your favourite Mechs will actually mean something now Posted Image


Exactly! You got it spot on man!

View Postcazidin, on 21 August 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

PGI either cannot or will not implement convergence. Sorry.


Can you even read? Even the TITLE says zero-convergence. ZERO-CONVERGENCE. Meaning a LACK of convergence. My gosh man, this entire thread is about getting rid of weapon convergence to eliminate precise alpha-striking. Posted Image

#14 Spleenslitta

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:55 AM

View PostGamuray, on 21 August 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Exactly! You got it spot on man!

He totally convinced me for certain. It's part of what has always been a part of the BT lore.
Mechwarriors are all crosseyed and can't aim for %¤&/(" so we should be so too.

And no. That is not sarcasm. I actually mean it.

#15 Gamuray

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:11 AM

View PostSpleenslitta, on 21 August 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

He totally convinced me for certain. It's part of what has always been a part of the BT lore.
Mechwarriors are all crosseyed and can't aim for %¤&/(" so we should be so too.

And no. That is not sarcasm. I actually mean it.


Hm? I was talking about the guy that said we don't need extra crosshairs just because our weapons don't magically fire diagonal out of their barrels. Instead we can just get use to how the mech plays as part of mastering the mech. Nothing about this makes anyone a bad aim man, makes them better aims actually, since they'll learn how far off they need to aim to get their shoulder mount to hit versus their center torso mount.

#16 Spleenslitta

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:38 AM

View PostGamuray, on 21 August 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:


Hm? I was talking about the guy that said we don't need extra crosshairs just because our weapons don't magically fire diagonal out of their barrels. Instead we can just get use to how the mech plays as part of mastering the mech. Nothing about this makes anyone a bad aim man, makes them better aims actually, since they'll learn how far off they need to aim to get their shoulder mount to hit versus their center torso mount.

Pfahahaha. The missunderstandings textmessages can bring when tone of voice and facial expressions cannot be used.
I like Hoffensteins suggestion and i want torso mounted weapons to have no convergence whatsoever.
Torso weapons fire in the direction the torso points.
I was refering to the fact that in the BT novels the mechwarriors are a bit notorious for inaccuracy.

#17 Gamuray

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:44 AM

View PostSpleenslitta, on 21 August 2016 - 11:38 AM, said:

Pfahahaha. The missunderstandings textmessages can bring when tone of voice and facial expressions cannot be used.
I like Hoffensteins suggestion and i want torso mounted weapons to have no convergence whatsoever.
Torso weapons fire in the direction the torso points.
I was refering to the fact that in the BT novels the mechwarriors are a bit notorious for inaccuracy.


Ah, yes. I understand now. And this would simulate that inaccuracy in a limited way. I mean, you'd be easily just as accurate firing individual weapon locations at a time once you figure out the offset you need to hit with offset hardpoints (ones not in lower arm actuated arms anyways). Just inaccurate when firing different locations at the same time (but predictably instead of random inaccuracy)

#18 Vincent Quatermain

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:52 PM

This again? There is a better name for the zero convergence solution that keeps rising like a zombie on these forums: Ghost Aim.

That's how it will feel when players point their targeting reticle at the enemy's right torso at a mere 200m and the right arm weapon hits the enemy mech's left arm. They are going to think things like:

1) Man, the netcode in this game is garbage. Screw this game.
2) Are there hidden dice rolls determining shot trajectory? If so, screw this game.

And if you try to fix this with HUD indicators?

3) This is really cluttered, but if I do an assymetric boat build, it becomes really simple.

Ghost Aim can die in a fire. It is the only idea for balancing MWO that is actually worse than no fix at all. Ghost Heat is practically genius by comparison.

#19 Gamuray

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 02:25 PM

View PostVincent Quatermain, on 21 August 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

This again? There is a better name for the zero convergence solution that keeps rising like a zombie on these forums: Ghost Aim.

That's how it will feel when players point their targeting reticle at the enemy's right torso at a mere 200m and the right arm weapon hits the enemy mech's left arm. They are going to think things like:

1) Man, the netcode in this game is garbage. Screw this game.
2) Are there hidden dice rolls determining shot trajectory? If so, screw this game.

And if you try to fix this with HUD indicators?

3) This is really cluttered, but if I do an assymetric boat build, it becomes really simple.

Ghost Aim can die in a fire. It is the only idea for balancing MWO that is actually worse than no fix at all. Ghost Heat is practically genius by comparison.


Another person that needs to learn to read. This is ZERO convergence. If you read through I literally say "weapons shoot where the barrels are pointing". There is no randomness to NO convergence. You are thinking of delayed or dynamic convergence, where you have an area that the weapon can hit in. ZERO convergence means the weapons DON'T converge. They just shoot where they point.

Here, I'll give you a visual.
Posted Image

In this example, if the king crab alpha striked, the weapon would fire down range in exactly the pattern shown (assuming arms not pointing higher than torso). So if he shoots everything with the locust in the middle... well, he'll probably miss everything unless the travel time causes the locust to run into the projectiles. Whereas the locust will be firing it's smaller weapon pattern down range, as shown, and IT will hit with everything, because the crab is larger than the locust's widest point between weapons.

Now, if the crab wants to hit the locust, then he can aim down and left for lasers, down and right for missiles, or to either side to get a ballistic to hit.

Everything is PERFECTLY PREDICTABLE. Things just shoot where they are pointing instead of magically turning when they leave their weapon barrel.


Learn to read.

#20 davoodoo

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Posted 21 August 2016 - 03:24 PM

Also arms weapon placement will become more important as arms can actually move and adjust barrel angle regardless of torso instead of so many builds simply using arms as disposable shields protecting actually armed torsos.

Edited by davoodoo, 21 August 2016 - 03:25 PM.






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