29 replies to this topic

[AngrySpartan]

Kin3ticX, on 22 August 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

you may not need to punish ppfld more then with all weapons linked now. 2xGauss 2xERPPC and 1xGauss 2xERPPC will likely generate a lot of penalty points onces they polish the numbers

Define "punish more"?
As of now with 1d/1e ratio, PPFLD is the dominant weapon group on PTS. PPFLD is a pinpoint weapon, it hits single component! If you are hit with perfectly synced 2 Gauss/2PPC combo it's 60 points of damage. You will likely lose a component or it will be severely damaged. Do I even need to explain why big pinpoint alphas are bad for the game?
By raising multiplier to 1,5 there will be no sync with such builds. You will have to fire with 2 weapon groups in 1,5 sec, either accept the penalty. Thus, no sustained pinpoint alpha are possible, but you still can do it if you want to.

Kin3ticX, on 22 August 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

Other combos like 2xLPL, 3xERML and 2xGauss, 2xLPL, 3xERML are going to suffer even more. Those totally dodge the ghost heat system of the live build but were already nerfed with gauss cooldown nerfs and ERML range nerfs.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

I still don't see why these loadouts need to be nerfed more. The IS side will likely be okay because they can just boat LPLs, but any Clan energy boat is going to suffer, which is bad for balance.

IS is barely affected by this: 3LPL/2ml is only 5 heat penalty. Everything else will require to fire MLs/LPLs/Gauss in a separate weapon group, thus avoiding penalty. I consider it's good, because the damage spreads more this way, so TTK will go up. And again, if you want to - you can choose to fire big alpha at once. Option that was lacking at Ghost Heat.
Though I agree - Clan ERMLs got hit pretty hard and aren't that usefull anymore. Testing is required.

Mystere, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

In that case, for good measure let's also add zero convergence to the mix and see who are capable of seat-of-the-pants geometry and trigonometry. <maniacal >

Love the idea of messing with accuracy and convergence. Particularly Homeless Bill's original proposal (Targeting Computer Load), where you steadily lose convergence and accuracy once energy is completely drawn.
Both zero convergence and Bill's proposal opens a huge can of worms though: mech balance depends on hardpoint locations more, hitreg, not very intuitive, PGI engeenireeng time, etc.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 22 August 2016 - 11:54 PM.

[Kazzun]

What makes no sense 4 me is the fact that Missiles and Ballistics (except gauss 4 capacitors reload) draw power.
The only power those weps need is 4 cooling after fire.
It would make much more sense if the whole P D sys would be based on heat rather than damage.
This would affect energy boats and ppc / gauss (would set it at 15 draw 4 his capacitors) spamming alot more than with current implementation using hard penaltys, like op says 1.5 or above, 4 firing over cap.
Example Spirit Bear w 4 srm6 1ac20, its 4*4 + 7 = 23 heat rather than EBJ laser vomit w 4 mlas 2 lpulse, 4*6 + 2*10 = 44 heat. First could alpha as usual, second would get penalitys.
It may need adjustmenst on coolwown and heat on some weapons but at least it would seem somewhat logic.

Edited by Kazzun, 23 August 2016 - 01:52 AM.

[AngrySpartan]

Kazzun, on 23 August 2016 - 01:52 AM, said:

What makes no sense 4 me is the fact that Missiles and Ballistics (except gauss 4 capacitors reload) draw power.
The only power those weps need is 4 cooling after fire.
It would make much more sense if the whole P D sys would be based on heat rather than damage.
This would affect energy boats and ppc / gauss (would set it at 15 draw 4 his capacitors) spamming alot more than with current implementation using hard penaltys, like op says 1.5 or above, 4 firing over cap.
Example Spirit Bear w 4 srm6 1ac20, its 4*4 + 7 = 23 heat rather than EBJ laser vomit w 4 mlas 2 lpulse, 4*6 + 2*10 = 44 heat. First could alpha as usual, second would get penalitys.
It may need adjustmenst on coolwown and heat on some weapons but at least it would seem somewhat logic.

Let me rephrase: you suggest to make Energy draw based on heat rather than damage, is that correct?

Goal of ED is to prevent pinpoint alphas, is to make them spread over small period of time, thus to lose their accuracy.
Big advantage of the ED combined with what I suggested is that it only takes into account damage(1) and how pinpoint that damage(2). Those two variables are completely independent from heat, cooldowns, etc. Changing the damage/spread of CERPPC will not make it OP, as it would adjust it's draw anyway. On the contrary, system based on heat will apmlify the effects of reduced/increased heat.

[Kazzun]

Yep i would base it on heat rather than damage.
From a logical viewpoint.
Why should an AC actually draw power from my engine (and thus produce heat)? Only 2 reasons are Cooling the Barrel after firing it and ammo resupply. I cannot imagine that resupply cost that much...

BTW goal of ED is actually prevent alphas in general, not only pinpoint.
While pinpoint builds are present most common are those with combinations of 3 lpl and 4-5 med laser 4 IS and 4-6 med and 2 lpls for Clan.
The current implementation does penalize short range Builds more cause if u r already in combat u cannot avoid return fire by hiding nor u can actually continue firing, with a mid range vomit build u still can (and thus u can actually still alpha and wait 4 cooling).
Thats why i would rise the penalty over cap to 1.5 or more but dont have different multipliers 4 each weapon type.

[AngrySpartan]

Kazzun, on 23 August 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

Yep i would base it on heat rather than damage.
From a logical viewpoint.
Why should an AC actually draw power from my engine (and thus produce heat)? Only 2 reasons are Cooling the Barrel after firing it and ammo resupply. I cannot imagine that resupply cost that much...

I like realistic gameplay, but in the end of the day it's gameplay that matters, not realism for me. Thus I am not looking for realistic explanations, why ACs generate heat at all.

Kazzun, on 23 August 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

BTW goal of ED is actually prevent alphas in general, not only pinpoint.
While pinpoint builds are present most common are those with combinations of 3 lpl and 4-5 med laser 4 IS and 4-6 med and 2 lpls for Clan.

Well, that's what was stated in the official post: "greater risks and penalties for powerful and frequent Alpha Strikes"
Not to prevent, but make the punishment more severe. And this is exactly my point, i'll rephrase it: there is nothing wrong with single pinpoint alpha or several alphas, spread all over the mech. There is a problem of sustained pinpoint alpha striking we have on PTS right now.

Kazzun, on 23 August 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

The current implementation does penalize short range Builds more cause if u r already in combat u cannot avoid return fire by hiding nor u can actually continue firing, with a mid range vomit build u still can (and thus u can actually still alpha and wait 4 cooling).

Agreed, short range builds are pretty lackluster on PTS. They spread damage (SRMs/LBXs), so they should be rewarded with higher alpha value. Lowering multiplier to 0,5-0,75 will buff them. 1,5x multiplier for PPFDL weapons will make the difference between the two groups significant, so there will be a reason to take short range builds. Lasers stand exactly in the middle as I see it, as they are semi-pinpoint, the duration provides natural spread which will balance them with other weapon types.

Kazzun, on 23 August 2016 - 03:32 AM, said:

Thats why i would rise the penalty over cap to 1.5 or more but dont have different multipliers 4 each weapon type.

Can't say "it's not an option", but:
1. Raising heat penalty will equally strike Splat and Pinpoint damage. It will not differentiate the size of an alpha strike, will not take into account that LBXs/SRMs have spread. Multipliers do that, though they are slightly more complex.
2. Raising heat penalty is similar to exponential heat we have now - it doesn't give you a choice. Noone is building mechs that trigger ghost heat now on live servers, it is not worth the penalty. Penalty of 0,5/damage gives you a choice: should I fire 4PPCs now and hide to cooloff or I can risk 1sec of facetime? DPS or burst damage? That's one of the biggest advantages of ED over GH, and raising heat penalty will nullify it.

Edited by AngrySpartan, 23 August 2016 - 04:00 AM.

[Kazzun]

But since Splat damaging Weapons already do less heat those would benefit more.
And as new player i would have nothing 2 worry about various multipliers.
Only thing i have 2 know is if i produce 2 much heat simultaneously my mech gets punished hard.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kin3ticX, on 22 August 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

3xC/LPL is also going to put out less heat under the current PTS and now 2xC/LPL is within just a few damage of 3xLPL

I wouldn't count on that. All the pro-Energy Draw people are gun-ho about larger penalties, and since they are the ones giving the positive, constructive feedback, they will be the ones that PGI listens to. Rather then those giving the negative feedback and identifying the obvious issues with linking all weapons to the same damage pool.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

I still don't see why these loadouts need to be nerfed more. The IS side will likely be okay because they can just boat LPLs, but any Clan energy boat is going to suffer, which is bad for balance.

Yeah I think there needs to be some adjustment now to clan lasers because "more damage at a cost of longer burn time" isn't much of an advantage when everyone is limited to the same sized alpha. (and for the most part it's been a losing trade off outside of a few specific weapons.


The closest you can get on a clan mech to say a 4x LPL Warhammer or similar is to take like 5x CMPLs (fire 3 then 2) and slap on a MK VII Targeting computer for more range.

Even then you can only get to, IIRC, 385m or so.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...81d95e9fd6da231

It's not quite there.

You can move up to 3x CLPLs but that's a very different build and plays more like a 4x LLAS which isn't as strong as the 5x LLAS builds IMO (which can still be played pretty much exactly how they are now, although I'm not sure how well they will trade vs. 3x PPCs or similar)

[Reno Blade]

I think this might be useful for this discussion:
http://mwomercs.com/...-the-ed-system/
value of 28 capacity and a multiplier of 1.5 after reaching 0 energy for PPCs:


EDIT because of PTS2 comming up with 12 Draw and 1.0 multiplier:

Edited by Reno Blade, 23 August 2016 - 03:31 PM.

[AngrySpartan]

Just saw upcoming test adjustments, and overall I am satisfied. Apart from the nonsense Gauss rifle changes (health and explosion chance) and SRM spread it's moving in the right direction I think. Still wonder, why it's necessary to mess with cooldown, rather than straight energy draw increase, but that's a test anyway.

Ultimax, on 23 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Yeah I think there needs to be some adjustment now to clan lasers because "more damage at a cost of longer burn time" isn't much of an advantage when everyone is limited to the same sized alpha. (and for the most part it's been a losing trade off outside of a few specific weapons.

Exactly my thoughts. Hopefully PTS2 will reflect this, though increase of the duration of IS lasers seems more appropriate to me.

Reno Blade, on 23 August 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

I think this might be useful for this discussion:
http://mwomercs.com/...-the-ed-system/

Thanks for the link and for you time, graphs usually helps a lot!