38 replies to this topic

[TekFan]

...from what I've read this seems wrong on so many levels.

Don't get me wrong, I sure do appreciate trying to subdue these boating meta-builds.
But this?!

Ghost heat was never popular and wrapping it up in a system that is basically the same and goes against three decades of lore won't make it any more attractive.


Thirty dmg before you're getting penalized. This sounds like a massive nerf to assaults. Fast and manuverable mechs already receive a lot of durability due to latency(given that the pilot knows that they have to use their speed and agility) and now assaults get a dmg-limiter? I can't really say this sounds promising.


How about going back to a slot-system like in MW4? Reducing the heat-capacity for each weight-class, removing heat-cap-boni from the double heat sinks? Increasing weapon-cooldown or -heat?
You got all these options, why not use them?


I really appreciate that you're trying to balance your game, PGI. When I think back to the first months of playing your game, with Ravens with latency-godmode and basically nothing but LRM-spam you definitely improved, but I'd really appreciate if you stick to the basics and iron those out, instead of trying to pull new systems out of your hat.

[Tiantara]

- See... We already have slot system called Hardpoints. Many mech have restriction even having 3 ballistic hardpoints you can mount only 3 MG... not any gun you want. And that's good. Take off mech flexibility not a good idea, because every mech lost freedome to rebalanced by pilot and got strict purpose given by developers. And if their variant was not good... you got bad mech. Now you can easy change mech close to situation.
- All running longrange, make more speed and go closer.
- All become brawlers, put some longrange to make damage before they come.
- All become mixed build, construct your own variant based on premade chassis.
MW4 was good because it was mostly single player game.
Now we have good tool to balance mech - heatsinks which take hardpoints, structure, armor and part of XL engines. Less heatsink more space for weapon, more heat. And you can see them. Not click heatsinks by tons. besides the fact that mechLab in MW4 was terrible. Comparing with MW3.

Overall I can see the main idea here is:
- Put in mech heat limit = number of heatsink.
- Give each weapon proper heat points which would be taken from heatsink cold pool and heat mech up.
- Make mech cool only when it stops fire.
- Force user to balance - more heatsinks (small alphas) or more power (with using only chainfire because of overheating)

Sounds good on paper, but have some weak points.

[TekFan]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

- See... We already have slot system called Hardpoints. Many mech have restriction even having 3 ballistic hardpoints you can mount only 3 MG... not any gun you want. And that's good. Take off mech flexibility not a good idea, because every mech lost freedome to rebalanced by pilot and got strict purpose given by developers. And if their variant was not good... you got bad mech. Now you can easy change mech close to situation.
- All running longrange, make more speed and go closer.
- All become brawlers, put some longrange to make damage before they come.
- All become mixed build, construct your own variant based on premade chassis.
MW4 was good because it was mostly single player game.
Now we have good tool to balance mech - heatsinks which take hardpoints, structure, armor and part of XL engines. Less heatsink more space for weapon, more heat. And you can see them. Not click heatsinks by tons. besides the fact that mechLab in MW4 was terrible. Comparing with MW3.

Overall I can see the main idea here is:
- Put in mech heat limit = number of heatsink.
- Give each weapon proper heat points which would be taken from heatsink cold pool and heat mech up.
- Make mech cool only when it stops fire.
- Force user to balance - more heatsinks (small alphas) or more power (with using only chainfire because of overheating)

Sounds good on paper, but have some weak points.

We got a hardpoint-system. A ballistic hardpoint can mean everything from a machinegun to a AC-20.
I'm not suggesting to go entirely back to MW4, but slots would actually help to remove some of the boat-builds.

Forcefully limiting the DPS-output to the same amount across all weight-classes is utterly pointless in my opinion. The EDS/ghostheat mk2 won't do anything against small mechs full of small pulse lasers outmanuvering heavies and assaults, and will just limit the dmg-output of the weight-classes whose sole purpose is to be a slow moving dps-dispenser.

Just increase the heat-emission and cooldown-time of larger weapons, lower the total heat-capacity of smaller mechs compared to larger mechs and I'm sure that would deal with a lot of the problems.

[davoodoo]

This sounds like massive nerfs to mediums...

2 uac20 hunchback 2c.
hbk 4p with 8 mlas
Nova with 6 mlas per arm

stock canon variants which cant effectively use their weaponry...

Edited by davoodoo, 22 August 2016 - 05:49 AM.

[Tiantara]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 05:49 AM, said:

This sounds like massive nerfs to mediums...

2 uac20 hunchback 2c.
hbk 4p with 8 mlas
Nova with 6 mlas per arm

stock canon variants which cant effectively use their weaponry...

- I tested stock build as well as cold and hot build on different maps. Your fire pattern changes, but all mech works even better than now on living server. So limiting alpha wont hurt them much.

[davoodoo]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

- I tested stock build as well as cold and hot build on different maps. Your fire pattern changes, but all mech works even better than now on living server. So limiting alpha wont hurt them much.

hunchbacks cant fire their weaponry with big penatly on both live and pts.

But nova?? **** me cant fire single arm without ghost heat on pts on a mech which had that arm heat neutral in tt.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 August 2016 - 06:16 AM.

[Tiantara]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

hunchbacks cant fire their weaponry with big penatly on both live and pts.

But nova?? **** me cant fire single arm without ghost heat on pts on a mech which had that arm heat neutral in tt.

- And how many lasers in hand, which lasers, how low your heat management parameter? Which map you use? What full DMG you have in one hand? Have you wait 1.5 second delay to fire second hand?
Without that hardly calculate where is problem.

I know that nova with 6C-ERML in torso and hand with energy quirks work perfect in strike 3+3 laser. I know that same nova with 6C-MPL lasers work worse than it on live server. Nova with 4MG+4ML(4MPL) works great and kill everything more efficient than on live server.

Edited by Tiantara, 22 August 2016 - 06:41 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

hunchbacks cant fire their weaponry with big penatly on both live and pts.

But nova?? **** me cant fire single arm without ghost heat on pts on a mech which had that arm heat neutral in tt.

The Nova almost always chain-fired in lore, as did the Warhawk with its 4 ERPPCs.

[davoodoo]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 06:40 AM, said:

- And how many lasers in hand, which lasers, how low your heat management parameter? Which map you use? What full DMG you have in one hand? Have you wait 1.5 second delay to fire second hand?
Without that hardly calculate where is problem.

I know that nova with 6C-ERML in torso and hand with energy quirks work perfect in strike 3+3 laser. I know that same nova with 6C-MPL lasers work worse than it on live server. Nova with 4MG+4ML(4MPL) works great and kill everything more efficient than on live server.

Stock prime variant
12 erml on 2 hands...
84 total dmg, 42 per arm.
cant fire 6 erml without 6 ghost heat(for now cause pgi is bound to increase penatlies)

Gentleman Reaper, on 22 August 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

The Nova almost always chain-fired in lore, as did the Warhawk with its 4 ERPPCs.

Nova had 18 dhs, while single arm produced only 30 heat.

It meant that she(?) could fire that 6 erml without any heat and even alpha 60 heat would only mean 24/30.
Ingame 54% heat(no skills) when firing single arm... then waited for complete energy refill and fired 2nd arm, shutdown... Alpha results in 8second shutdown(basically 2 turns if we adjust for ppc cooldown)


and warhawk
20 dhs and only 30 heat per arm, alpha would put it at 20/30

It would be literally ******** to create a mech which cant alpha all weapons of the same class without shutting down.. if you arent meant to fire more than 6 erml EVER then dont put more than 6 erml use rest of tonnage to mix weapons and looking at how ppl who worked on battletech put that mech there i expect it to work...

Edited by davoodoo, 22 August 2016 - 08:14 AM.

[Tiantara]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Stock prime variant
12 erml on 2 hands...
84 total dmg, 42 per arm.
cant fire 6 erml without 6 ghost heat(for now cause pgi is bound to increase penatlies)

- As I said before and in many comments and my own post... all mech with heat management lower than 1 - extreme variants of firepower constructed for chainfire (also with limitation). That NVA-PRIME have only 0.81 heat management. Most of it. You even have message abow mech than fire more than 6 lasers can produce high heat. You can fire 3,4 or even 5 laser... but untill you have 0.81 heat management your mech under rick to shutdown after each shot.
Now we get Energy Draw pool which demonstrate why that message so important. And with that - normal heat.
You can have cold mech with heatmanagement = 1.1\1.6 and have no problem with burst fire.
You can have hot mech with heatmanagement = 0.70\1 and be forced to use chainfire or split alpha without penalty.
You choice optimal strategy and playstyle.

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Nova had 18 dhs, while single arm produced only 30 heat.

It meant that she(?) could fire that 6 erml without any heat and even alpha 60 heat would only mean 24/30.
same with warhawk

20 dhs and only 30 heat per arm, alpha would put it at 20/30

- DHS is how fast your mech cooldown after taking full heat bar. If you have less DHS - you got heat longer and make additional heat quicker than cool off engine. If you got more DHS your heat went down quicker. And repeated fire wont add too much heat.

[davoodoo]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:

- As I said before and in many comments and my own post... all mech with heat management lower than 1 - extreme variants of firepower constructed for chainfire (also with limitation). That NVA-PRIME have only 0.81 heat management. Most of it. You even have message abow mech than fire more than 6 lasers can produce high heat. You can fire 3,4 or even 5 laser... but untill you have 0.81 heat management your mech under rick to shutdown after each shot.
Now we get Energy Draw pool which demonstrate why that message so important. And with that - normal heat.
You can have cold mech with heatmanagement = 1.1\1.6 and have no problem with burst fire.
You can have hot mech with heatmanagement = 0.70\1 and be forced to use chainfire or split alpha without penalty.
You choice optimal strategy and playstyle.



- DHS is how fast your mech cooldown after taking full heat bar. If you have less DHS - you got heat longer and make additional heat quicker than cool off engine. If you got more DHS your heat went down quicker. And repeated fire wont add too much heat.

It got terrible heat management in mwo only.

In tt it was working just fine.firing 6-7 at a time(np with 42-49 dmg alphas btw despite half the armor of mwo)
In mw4 it overheats after 2nd alpha just like in tt, and firing 1 arm at a time makes it heat neutral(again 6 and even 12 medlas alpha is fine)
In mwo 6 erml on live overheats after 14s and on pts after 7 seconds.(12 medlas alpha?? sacrebleu, 6 medlas alpha?? too op)

So far only pgi managed to **** up stock prime variant of black hawk to the point where it cant use its weaponry in a way it was designed for, 1 arm at a time with occasional alpha when needed.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 August 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

hunchbacks cant fire their weaponry with big penatly on both live and pts.

But nova?? **** me cant fire single arm without ghost heat on pts on a mech which had that arm heat neutral in tt.

with the current Stock Nova arm Alpha 42 damage,
you would only get 6 extra heat for 12 damage over 30,

thats not much when you consider that breaking GH on live Severs gets you 7 Extra heat for 1ER-ML(7dam),

so in a way its more relaxed than Ghost heat, as here its a soft Counter to heat,
where GH has Harsh Penalties, you Dare not go over GH or Face the Fire Gods,
here its ok to go alittle over, but you will get more heat, Efficiency vs Damage,

[Gentleman Reaper]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Stock prime variant
12 erml on 2 hands...
84 total dmg, 42 per arm.
cant fire 6 erml without 6 ghost heat(for now cause pgi is bound to increase penatlies)


Nova had 18 dhs, while single arm produced only 30 heat.

It meant that she(?) could fire that 6 erml without any heat and even alpha 60 heat would only mean 24/30.
Ingame 54% heat(no skills) when firing single arm... then waited for complete energy refill and fired 2nd arm, shutdown... Alpha results in 8second shutdown(basically 2 turns if we adjust for ppc cooldown)


and warhawk
20 dhs and only 30 heat per arm, alpha would put it at 20/30

It would be literally ******** to create a mech which cant alpha all weapons of the same class without shutting down.. if you arent meant to fire more than 6 erml EVER then dont put more than 6 erml use rest of tonnage to mix weapons and looking at how ppl who worked on battletech put that mech there i expect it to work...

MWO heat mechanics are vastly different from TT's, where heat sinks increase your heat cap and dissipation, rather than reducing the heat that a weapon produces.

Would be interesting to see if this kind of mechanic would work though, but I am fine with how it is now, it promotes less spamming and careful heat management.

[Tiantara]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

It got terrible heat management in mwo only.

In tt it was working just fine.firing 6-7 at a time.
In mw4 it overheats after 2nd alpha just like in tt, and firing 1 arm at a time makes it heat neutral

So far only pgi managed to **** up stock prime variant of black hawk to the point where it cant use its weaponry in a way it was designed for, 1 arm at a time with occasional alpha when needed.

- Both of game live now and have f2p mechanic?
Also we play now in that MW:O, we testing mechanic and complaining about how it works in another games wont help make it better. I love mechanic of MechCommander and MW2\MW3... What now? Whining about bring it here? Nope. I'm searching the way to make game interesting for all players. Especially for newcomers. Old game has limit of mech use. Each mech can used in it's own situation and when 2 of team die - all team die. MW:O take off that - each mech can be customized within it class to be useful in any situation until "last men standing".

[davoodoo]

Gentleman Reaper, on 22 August 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

MWO heat mechanics are vastly different from TT's, where heat sinks increase your heat cap and dissipation, rather than reducing the heat that a weapon produces.

Would be interesting to see if this kind of mechanic would work though, but I am fine with how it is now, it promotes less spamming and careful heat management.

Heat dissipation in tt is done in the moment of firing. so extra heat capacity from heat sinks is some way to interpret this.

You could make it closer to tt by heat sinks simply negating x points of heat and then going on cooldown during which they dissipate it, but i wont blame pgi for going with simple heat capacity as no other game in the series to my knowledge did it any better.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

with the current Stock Nova arm Alpha 42 damage,
you would only get 6 extra heat for 12 damage over 30,

thats not much when you consider that breaking GH on live Severs gets you 7 Extra heat for 1ER-ML(7dam),

so in a way its more relaxed than Ghost heat, as here its a soft Counter to heat,
where GH has Harsh Penalties, you Dare not go over GH or Face the Fire Gods,
here its ok to go alittle over, but you will get more heat, Efficiency vs Damage,

Live got penatly for 7 or more, so at least i can fire 1 arm at a time
Pts got penatly for 5 or more, so i need to spread it into 3 groups of 4 or ill overheat when trying to fire second arm.
In both alpha means shutdown.

And single arm should be efficient, this is what this mech was designed for in canon.
Game is ignoring source material it attempts to make as selling point...

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

- Both of game live now and have f2p mechanic?
Also we play now in that MW:O, we testing mechanic and complaining about how it works in another games wont help make it better. I love mechanic of MechCommander and MW2\MW3... What now? Whining about bring it here? Nope. I'm searching the way to make game interesting for all players. Especially for newcomers. Old game has limit of mech use. Each mech can used in it's own situation and when 2 of team die - all team die. MW:O take off that - each mech can be customized within it class to be useful in any situation until "last men standing".

There are no newcomers anymore, mechwarrior will appeal mostly to ppl who liked previous games and to battletech fans...

To which of these groups do you appeal with ghost heat and energy draw which pisses on decades of established lore and proven balance of previous games??

But **** ok, lets say you want to make something that wasnt done before, how come you have problems which previous products didnt have?? First time i hear that nova is op because 6(not even all 12) medlas. Clearly you introduced this problem and maybe you should backpedal on your design and not make it more convoluted and trying to introduce system which breaks fundamental parts of the game in form of canonical mechs.

And to be fair, ghost heat at least preserved stock mech functionally for the most part(awesomes 3ppc werent awesome enough), if mech had strong mix of close range weaponry(which clearly meant he should be able to use it in original) it could use it all(im looking at you atlas) but power draw doesnt even do that.

So im complaining and my feedback goes like that.
"dont try to reinvent the wheel" and "use proven concepts from the past".

And to cement my point
"Designed by Cosara Weaponries in 2741 at the request of General Aleksandr Kerensky for an assault 'Mech that could "cripple or destroy another 'Mech in one salvo," the King Crab is one of the most fearsome BattleMechs to have ever existed."
Which part of this description tells me i shouldnt fire 2 ac20 at once, yet game penalizes me for doing so and tells me i should avoid that.

Edited by davoodoo, 22 August 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[Tiantara]

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

There are no newcomers anymore, mechwarrior will appeal mostly to ppl who liked previous games and to battletech fans...

- That sad, I know. I like MW2 in my time and now I glad to have game to play free or put some $$ to get some nice stuff and have fun. f2p model bring that game up. And in alternative we have... emm... nothing?

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

To which of these groups do you appeal with ghost heat and energy draw which pisses on decades of established lore and proven balance of previous games??

- Old games was not balanced for massive multiplayer with possibility to abusing game mechanic. Back in time they was at least skirmish for lan-internet and don't need powerfull servers. And in same time culture of players was higher than now. Nowadays finding ways to break mechanic is a goal. In all game gamers searching most easy way to obtain great power. Limitation, restriction and soft forcing to right way - only possible decision.

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

But **** ok, lets say you want to make something that wasnt done before, how come you have problems which previous products didnt have?? First time i hear that nova is op because 6(not even all 12) medlas. Clearly you introduced this problem and maybe you should backpedal on your design and not make it more convoluted and trying to introduce system which breaks fundamental parts of the game in form of canonical mechs.

- Who say they don't? Nova OP, because of pinpoint no ammo require weapon with pretty mid-range and hand agility. Two such shots in back of mech = kill. Two shots in medium\heavy mech arm - loose hand and component. We remember - pinpoint, not splash or scatter. Two shots to leg... well even hero mech and some sturdy types got yellow structure, or loose it.
Again, main goal - leave firepower intact but tach players how to use chainfire and split alphas with 1.5sec delay. On PTS you can shot 6ML, wait 2sec and shoot again.

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

And to be fair, ghost heat at least preserved stock mech functionally for the most part(awesomes 3ppc werent awesome enough), if mech had strong mix of close range weaponry(which clearly meant he should be able to use it in original) it could use it all(im looking at you atlas) but power draw doesnt even do that.

- Under ghost heat most of presented in store mech won't work before its build hammered with knowledge. And even after that, underpowered mech can't do in real battle with fullpower mech who can rip hand and leg in 1 shot and then freely go to shutdown for a few seconds. ED goal - make battle longer. By cooldown of weapon, by limiting 1 shot alpha, by rising or lowering some heat and heat penalty.

davoodoo, on 22 August 2016 - 08:57 AM, said:

So im complaining and my feedback goes like that.
"dont try to reinvent the wheel" and "use proven concepts from the past".

- Not all old mechanic works in f2p mechanic and games where everyone want nuclear hammer and no one want to be a bard with flute or decoy. For all holy engines - most of players have no idea of each mech role and how to use support fire or flank! By old concept each lance must have 1assault, 1 heavy, 1medium and 1 light mech. Ok, but no one want play light... or medium... Especially when most of mech junk in front 70point punch. I hope that ED can bring more different mech from each class.
And for that we need test what we have and make it better if possible. Better from that position, not rethinking all from scratch.

[UMPA TAS]

Just installed it. Tried to test it. No one was on. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't impliment it on the main game until we can coordinate a thourough test and give you feedback on the merits PG!

[Tiantara]

UMPA TAS, on 22 August 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Just installed it. Tried to test it. No one was on. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't impliment it on the main game until we can coordinate a thourough test and give you feedback on the merits PG!

- Yeah... no one here.. all play Event ladder. I was lucky to have battles and duels... But... All I found interesting or tweakable I wrote in my post. You can read it. Also I can be in PTS and take invite to private lobby to test anything with pleasure. If you want - even now.

Edited by Tiantara, 22 August 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[davoodoo]

Tiantara, on 22 August 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

- That sad, I know. I like MW2 in my time and now I glad to have game to play free or put some $$ to get some nice stuff and have fun. f2p model bring that game up. And in alternative we have... emm... nothing?



- Old games was not balanced for massive multiplayer with possibility to abusing game mechanic. Back in time they was at least skirmish for lan-internet and don't need powerfull servers. And in same time culture of players was higher than now. Nowadays finding ways to break mechanic is a goal. In all game gamers searching most easy way to obtain great power. Limitation, restriction and soft forcing to right way - only possible decision.



- Who say they don't? Nova OP, because of pinpoint no ammo require weapon with pretty mid-range and hand agility. Two such shots in back of mech = kill. Two shots in medium\heavy mech arm - loose hand and component. We remember - pinpoint, not splash or scatter. Two shots to leg... well even hero mech and some sturdy types got yellow structure, or loose it.
Again, main goal - leave firepower intact but tach players how to use chainfire and split alphas with 1.5sec delay. On PTS you can shot 6ML, wait 2sec and shoot again.



- Under ghost heat most of presented in store mech won't work before its build hammered with knowledge. And even after that, underpowered mech can't do in real battle with fullpower mech who can rip hand and leg in 1 shot and then freely go to shutdown for a few seconds. ED goal - make battle longer. By cooldown of weapon, by limiting 1 shot alpha, by rising or lowering some heat and heat penalty.



- Not all old mechanic works in f2p mechanic and games where everyone want nuclear hammer and no one want to be a bard with flute or decoy. For all holy engines - most of players have no idea of each mech role and how to use support fire or flank! By old concept each lance must have 1assault, 1 heavy, 1medium and 1 light mech. Ok, but no one want play light... or medium... Especially when most of mech junk in front 70point punch. I hope that ED can bring more different mech from each class.
And for that we need test what we have and make it better if possible. Better from that position, not rethinking all from scratch.

You wot mate??

Buisness model got jack **** to do with balance.
You want to tell me that either heroes of newerth were balanced because it was buy 2 play and lol was imbalanced because it was free to play, or the opposite...

Earliest mentions of meta ive heard off were in regard to w40k tabletop which is 1987 while mw2 came out in 1995.
Concept of ppl using meta was known already and if you say its because kindness then i would like to point a zerg rush in 1998 starcraft, 3 years didnt make such difference... ppl always strived to look for path of least resistance or in this case easiest way to win.

No you cant shoot 6 ml wait and shoot another 6, it will shutdown your nova on pts...
5 ermeds already trigger penatly.
Even ignoring heat penatlies ou have 58.8 heat capacity, you dissipate 3.2 heat per second. you fire 6 you generate 36 heat, you wait 1.5s during which time you dissipate 4.8 heat leaving you at 31.2/58.8, next 6 ermeds put you at 67.2/58.8. Shutdown. Now also add 6 heat each time you fired because 42 energy 79.2/58.8

"The lance is the smallest organizational unit, equivalent to an infantry platoon. A 'Mech lance consists of four separate BattleMechs (although occasionally a "light lance" consists of only three 'Mechs) and are categorized based upon the average weight of the 'Mechs that comprise it (Light, Medium, Heavy, Assault)"
Lance oraganization isnt hard rule, it was simply strategy adopted by inner sphere military...

Also this deserves a mention
"Augmented Lance"
"After learning of the Novas used by the Clans, the Capellan Confederation Armed Forces began to experiment with mixing unit types."

Also no, we can throw whole ED into trash as it never went live and removing it from existence wont break any other system in the game... Its actually best mooment to get rid of anything, before it even enteers system.

And i could easily compare ed to a w40k.
Imagine relic making new dawn of war and changing rules because herp derp, it aint tt.
Your tactical marine squad can have 10 men but only 5 will be able to fire their weaponry at once others wait for them to start reloading. Why is that?? because they would deal more dmg at once than lightly armored eldar guardians, is it ******* ridiculous?? yes but we made space marines 100% accurate because they are speehs mahreens and so eldar now became ridiculously squishy...
You know what that would be called?? ******* heretical and you would have change.org petition directed to emprah asking to fire exterminatus at relic hq...

Edited by davoodoo, 22 August 2016 - 03:05 PM.

[Tiantara]

- Ah you are from them... I understand.

As you say.

Quote

ppl always strived to look for path of least resistance or in this case easiest way to win.

- That's the reason of rebalancing, making limits or restriction if no another way. Some game just rip off something what can't be rebalanced even if it based on lore (card games, strategy, limiting units to solo mission not multiplayer, make weapon less powerful or bring shields... Its hard to do when you need rethink and review every single detail. Easier when you have blocks.

Quote

No you cant shoot 6 ml wait and shoot another 6, it will shutdown your nova on pts...
5 ermeds already trigger penatly.
Even ignoring heat penatlies ou have 58.8 heat capacity, you dissipate 3.2 heat per second. you fire 6 you generate 36 heat, you wait 1.5s during which time you dissipate 4.8 heat leaving you at 31.2/58.8, next 6 ermeds put you at 67.2/58.8. Shutdown. Now also add 6 heat each time you fired because 42 energy 79.2/58.8

- Oh really? I have Nova-Prime with 12C-ERML. Map - Canyon.
1 hand = 6
2 nand = 6
I fire one hand and got 49% heat in standing 53% heat when running.
I fire again when heat went down to 33% and fire second hand. Heat went up 75% standing and 83% running... No shutdown.

Yes, you need to wait longer than 1.5sec to run that build. But you can.
Split-Alpha strike do damage... and that logical.

Now lets see what that build can bring else...
1st shot 4 CERML = 24% heat, 2nd shot 4 CERML = 49% heat, 3rd shot 4 CERML = 69%
Delay - 1.5sec. 3sec = 84 damage on target... you don't miss it.

Lets see next possibility to use...
Split chainfire with cross fire... 45 shots untill you got 75% heat.
45 shots (every 2.56sec) = 315DMG in first 2 minute of battle... Really bad right?

So... Nova working. Maybe a little different, but working. On colder map you got better heat status... on hot - worse (or go to chainfire)


- About lances and... it was an example. Example when something strict can be flexible if needed. We not talking about strategy and units. We talking about mech and skills. Best build in novice hands can be junk... and not top build in hands of master can be fearful. But when some mech are junk whatever build you put in them - something wrong. Am I right?

Your advice nearly like erase all and start anew game.
Mine - take already forged tools and make tweaks and improvements. Easy make something when you need to turn 4 screws, than every part in every mech and every component and weapon aside skills and pilot skills.
I see how under limit some mech got second chance. Also I see how changes big-guns mech strategy from "see and kill" to "Make damage in right time and take less impact back". Also I see how fragile become gauss mech. Especially in torso. yeah they got power.. with chance to lose hand or side torso.

Also I seem many new builds, which can use as "Shield and Sword" or "Rock, scissors, paper". When one type of mech good vs another, third can kill it. Not always, but for that we have test server!
But all I see - tons of discussing small details like "Gauss or not to gauss, that is the PPC" and advice to remake game, mechanic, engines, mech, lore, GUI... and etc.

In result...
Less real test.
Less real experiments with something new, not "Known meta". With different mech, not already known and with old build which must work better and be the button "kill them all" you pilots gonna be sad and cry.
Less really useful information on which map and how works mech in that build, that or even that build (even if on live server it not a meta or even looks funny).

Where all this?
Instead of that I hear about glorious past of MW2\MW3\MW4 and so on. Even about another game... And "all and each" think like he - game-designer who bring salvation to MW:O by new idea and some parts which need a quarter of year hard-coding.

With such "test" I starting understand why "end users" got worst ever mini-map in result earlier.
Seems here same situation - If all bad - better do as it goes. Right? In result you got that ED but with not optimal tweaks.

Come one guys! We have new mechanic which can become even better when it in test! To replace GH, to make battle more interesting.

Edited by Tiantara, 22 August 2016 - 05:29 PM.