57 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

A higher Archer Cockpit would increase my customer satisfaction with the product. Right now it is poorly designed and delivered.

We don't need to import every comic book artist's tactical combat design decisions into this game. We should let logic prevail every once in a while.

This is one of those times.

[Bud Crue]

El Bandito, on 22 August 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

But we didn't know just how much it will affect the mech until we actually got to play it.

Sure. I'm just saying, that from PGI's perspective it is working as intended, and even if it isn't, they still are not going to change it.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Why add high hardpoints if they cannot shoot over obstacles? You cannot shoot over terrain features, no matter how high your weapons are, if your pilot cannot see over the berm. That's because the pilot's Line of Sight determines the point-of-impact for Direct-fire weapons like TAG.

So, raise the cockpit and make the darn Mech more worthwhile!

Edited by Prosperity Park, 22 August 2016 - 09:27 AM.

[Novakaine]

The TT version of the Archer has a high cockpit.
One of the things I was bemoaning because of PGI.
Make me sad.

[El Bandito]

Novakaine, on 22 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

The TT version of the Archer has a high cockpit.
One of the things I was bemoaning because of PGI.
Make me sad.

Why yes, it does. Would have been much better option.

[MerryIguana]

Spheroid, on 22 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Why?

Because there are a myriad of things hamstringing that mech?

[El Bandito]

MerryIguana, on 22 August 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Because there are a myriad of things hamstringing that mech?

Yep, and higher mounted cockpit is a relatively simple fix for one of its glaring flaws.

Bishop Steiner, on 22 August 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

Nope. It's part and parcel to the design.

But the original TT version of the mech had high mounted cockpit, so "part of the design" is debatable.

[Drunken Skull]

El Bandito, on 22 August 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

Do you think PGI should raise the cockpit of the Archer?

Actually the vision package for the Archer (Spartan) is supposed to be housed in the the black box on top of the CT with the antenna/lasers on it. Where the Cockpit is now, is in fact a weapons bay on the original mecha design.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 22 August 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 22 August 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

Yep, and higher mounted cockpit is a relatively simple fix for one of its glaring flaws.




But the original TT version of the mech had high mounted cockpit, so "part of the design" is debatable.

No, it's actually not. Because art often is inconsistent. Both the official TRO versions, and the novels are specific. Thus, any incidental art before they set the canon is just that, incidental.

"The Archer is one of the few BattleMechs whose cockpit is located beneath the central torso."
TRO 3025.

THAT is canon.

[Drunken Skull]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 August 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

No, it's actually not. Because art often is inconsistent. Both the official TRO versions, and the novels are specific. Thus, any incidental art before they set the canon is just that, incidental.

"The Archer is one of the few BattleMechs whose cockpit is located beneath the central torso."
TRO 3025.

THAT is canon.

Only because the twit that wrote that sentence never cared enough about what he was doing to do any research whatsoever. Maybe if He'd seen this pic that sentence could have turned out quite different.

The only thing the original Mecha design specifies at that location is an articulated IR Searchlight.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 22 August 2016 - 06:14 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Drunken Skull, on 22 August 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

Only because the twit that wrote that sentence never cared enough about what he was doing to do any research whatsoever. Maybe if He'd seen this pic that sentence could have turned out quite different.

https://www.google.c...&tbnw=197&w=564

as opposed to the pic that was commissioned for that work with the low cockpit? And the description in every novel?

Perhaps that "twit" was trying to create some distance between the battletech version and the macross one?

Naw, because that doesn't fit your preconception. So that can't be it.

[Drunken Skull]

When at the same time they weren't game to be experimental enough to even remove the UN-SPACEY logo from the Warhammer in all major iterations of the TT box art and advertisement posters?

Yeah, not buying it.

More likely the artist screwed the pooch and rather than fixing it they decided to run with it instead. Now thanks to poor communication about a misunderstood component of the mech(It's an IR searchlight on a gimbal ffs, not "the eyes of the mech" and most certainly wasn't supposed to be the position of the cockpit, which is what the artist OBVIOUSLY misunderstood), the problem has finally come back to bite someone in the ***. Best thing to do here would be to admit to the mistake and the disinformation in these poorly conceived novels, and fix it.

"Save a few pennys and the artist's dignity" they said, "no one will ever cotton on to the massive f**kup", they said...

Imagine putting the Warhammer's cockpit in it's TV-Box Searchlight, because that's exactly what you've done here with the Archer and it's gimbal Searchlight.

One of the cool aspects of the REAL cockpit for this mech, is it's resemblance to a modern day Tank's gun cupola.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 22 August 2016 - 07:23 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Drunken Skull, on 22 August 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

When at the same time they weren't game to be experimental enough to even remove the UN-SPACEY logo from the Warhammer in all major iterations of the TT box art and advertisement posters?

Yeah, not buying it.

More likely the artist screwed the pooch and rather than fixing it they decided to run with it instead. Now thanks to poor communication about a misunderstood component of the mech(It's an IR searchlight on a gimbal ffs, not "the eyes of the mech" and most certainly wasn't supposed to be the position of the cockpit, which is what the artist OBVIOUSLY misunderstood), the problem has finally come back to bite someone in the ***. Best thing to do here would be to admit to the mistake and the disinformation in these poorly conceived novels, and fix it.

"Save a few pennys and the artist's dignity" they said, "no one will ever cotton on to the massive f**kup", they said...

Imagine putting the Warhammer's cockpit in it's TV-Box Searchlight, because that's exactly what you've done here with the Archer and it's gimbal Searchlight.

One of the cool aspects of the REAL cockpit for this mech, is it's resemblance to a modern day Tank's gun cupola.

Gosh, so didn't they put a gun cluster in the CT while they were at if?.

Huh.

[DaZur]

While I empathize with your issue and recognize your point...

As a purist, I have to withhold my support.

I see the potential for a wide range of shenanigans regardless of how well intended the premise may be. Short answer is this is a slippery slope that can easily end up like this:

[Drunken Skull]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 August 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

Gosh, so didn't they put a gun cluster in the CT while they were at if?.

Huh.

A lot of stuff didn't quite fit in to the BTECH Cookie-Cutter, the Marauder's center line cannon is another good example, and I'm sure the Goliath provided endless amusement to the bakers armed with this cookie-cutter armor map.

@DaZur; I prefer crotch-rockets myself.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 22 August 2016 - 08:58 PM.

[DaZur]

Drunken Skull, on 22 August 2016 - 08:55 PM, said:

A lot of stuff didn't quite fit in to the BTECH Cookie-Cutter, the Marauder's center line cannon is another good example, and I'm sure the Goliath provided endless amusement to the bakers armed with this cookie-cutter armor map.

@DaZur; I prefer crotch-rockets myself.

So what you're saying it the infamous "Peter-Peen Cannon" is not high on your meta scale?

[El Bandito]

DaZur, on 22 August 2016 - 07:59 PM, said:

While I empathize with your issue and recognize your point...

As a purist, I have to withhold my support.

I see the potential for a wide range of shenanigans regardless of how well intended the premise may be. Short answer is this is a slippery slope that can easily end up like this:

A valid concern, but super low cockpit is something that really should be addressed, IMO. Exposing your entire torsi just so you can see the enemy is utterly stupid. Especially on a mech that is not that good in the first place, thanks to its hitboxes, and lack of offensive quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 22 August 2016 - 09:53 PM.

[ChapeL]

I think your point is valid. I'm not a purist per say but then again, on all the art I saw for the Archer prior to MWO, I had a hard time finding the cockpit anyway. So if someone were to tell me it's really supposed to be way up there or down by the waist, I wouldn't bat an eye.

As a side note, I'll say that I enjoy both my Archer and Mad Dog equally but play them quite differently in part due to the physical differences you mentioned.. The MDD is the vulture on the hill raining down missiles and the ARC is the spitting cobra in the high grass getting its prey while it's distracted. ( .. and that's enough lame metaphors for one night )

Oh one last thing! We could leave the cockpit where it is but bring everything else down. Like so :

[zagibu]

Bud Crue, on 22 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Two: As to that "fixing"... the geometry of the Archer was presented that way when the mech was first announced, and we got almost exactly what was promised. So it isn't actually broken from PGI's perspective.

So if they announce a broken design, it's not broken when it's delivered in the announced state? Interesting perspective...

[Drunken Skull]

^ Make it Like this please
Remember, the barrel on it's waist is supposed to be the Search Light, the 3 battletank style vision slits up top is where the cockpit is.

This isn't just any random mech design, it's a Kazutaka Miyatake masterpiece, to change it is akin to drawing on the Mona Lisa with a permanent marker. It DEMANDS to be FIXED!

Edited by Drunken Skull, 23 August 2016 - 03:18 AM.