17 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

So with the AC5 cooldown set to 2.3 seconds (wow), I have to ask... if we have to nerf this weapon into this state (2.17 DPS), less than the DPS of the AC2, in order to make Energy Draw work, doesn't that meant this system has an issue? I mean that is pathetic DPS for a DPS weapon. Yes, I know my initial concerns were the AC5 legitimately taking over as the de-facto heavy and assault boating weapon under Energy Draw, but this is an excessive nerf.

Anyone else see this as an issue?

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

So with the AC5 cooldown set to 2.3 seconds (wow), I have to ask... if we have to nerf this weapon into this state (2.17 DPS), less than the DPS of the AC2, in order to make Energy Draw work, doesn't that meant this system has an issue? I mean that is pathetic DPS for a DPS weapon. Yes, I know my initial concerns were the AC5 legitimately taking over as the de-facto heavy and assault boating weapon under Energy Draw, but this is an excessive nerf.

Anyone else see this as an issue?

Yeah, it's pretty obviously screwed up given it's got lower DPS than the AC2. I can only hope it was a PTS endeavor and won't stick around as it was.

[Antares102]

Typical PGI overreaction. The 1.5 heat per shot would have probably already solved the issue,
but NO we need double whammy nerf bat hit similar to the KDK-3 when it was nerfed.

But al least PGI noticed that high sustained DPS is TEH EEEVIL with the new power draw system.
We have to grant them that...
AND the current changes are not final to lets hope for the best.
IMO 1.5 heat is enough nerf for the AC5.

[Signal27]

Does a flat 2 second cool down sound about right for the AC5?

[FupDup]

1.91 seconds would put it at the same 15% nerf that everything else got. Start there and adjust as needed.


To avoid AC/5 boats from taking over in Ghost Power matches, do these things:

1. Increase the power rating of the AC/5 to like 7 or 8. The idea is that if you only have a few of them, you don't get hit as hard. This lets the weapon be somewhat useful in a non-boated state.

2. Reduce ballistic quirks on "offending" mechs.

3. Adjust power ratings for other things like lasers and SRMs so that there are more competitors.

Edited by FupDup, 22 August 2016 - 09:47 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Signal27, on 22 August 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

Does a flat 2 second cool down sound about right for the AC5?

Sounds a little more reasonable yeah.

[SpiralFace]

My question would be then is the AC 5 really "Unbalanced" against the AC 2 even if it where to have lower DPS?

I mean, seriously, its more DPS, but not by much, and that DPS is achieved by both the fact that it needs to land 2.5 projectiles just to EQUAL the single projectile from one AC 5, and much worse Heat efficiency and hardpoint efficiency to the 5's (I think the most you can get is 6 on a King crab, and even then, your looking at lower damage output to mass AC 5's.)

I could really care less about the fact that the AC 2 does more DPS to the five provided that the overall system itself is balanced AGAINST the 5.

So far I haven't seen anything either way to really form an opinion. But to the point that the AC 5 is flawed because the 2 does more DPS doesn't really strike me as being that big of a deal as even with this change, I would argue the 2 is still the inferior weapon due to all of its other drawbacks.

If it does end up that the AC 2 in the actual game is superior to the AC 5, then sure, AC 5 should probably get some changes dialed back towards what it was. But I have yet to see this. AC2 still seems like the inferior choice, so I really don't see it as much of an issue.

[Gas Guzzler]

SpiralFace, on 22 August 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

My question would be then is the AC 5 really "Unbalanced" against the AC 2 even if it where to have lower DPS?

I mean, seriously, its more DPS, but not by much, and that DPS is achieved by both the fact that it needs to land 2.5 projectiles just to EQUAL the single projectile from one AC 5, and much worse Heat efficiency and hardpoint efficiency to the 5's (I think the most you can get is 6 on a King crab, and even then, your looking at lower damage output to mass AC 5's.)

I could really care less about the fact that the AC 2 does more DPS to the five provided that the overall system itself is balanced AGAINST the 5.

So far I haven't seen anything either way to really form an opinion. But to the point that the AC 5 is flawed because the 2 does more DPS doesn't really strike me as being that big of a deal as even with this change, I would argue the 2 is still the inferior weapon due to all of its other drawbacks.

If it does end up that the AC 2 in the actual game is superior to the AC 5, then sure, AC 5 should probably get some changes dialed back towards what it was. But I have yet to see this. AC2 still seems like the inferior choice, so I really don't see it as much of an issue.

So should the AC10 and AC20 do less DPS than an AC5 as well, since it takes 2-4 AC5 projectiles to equal ONE AC10 or AC20, without any other drawbacks, other than the projectile velocity and range differences which apparently don't matter.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 22 August 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

3. Adjust power ratings for other things like lasers and SRMs so that there are more competitors.

This would go a long way to fixing the imbalance issue, though I do think the AC5s needed something since they have been one of the best ACs for a while; also PGI, why have you not fixed the heat values for AC2/5s? There is clearly a pattern not only with their damage, but their heat, and yet you refuse to adjust them.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 10:35 AM, said:

This would go a long way to fixing the imbalance issue, though I do think the AC5s needed something since they have been one of the best ACs for a while; also PGI, why have you not fixed the heat values for AC2/5s? There is clearly a pattern not only with their damage, but their heat, and yet you refuse to adjust them.

The PTS nerfs the AC/5 heat to 1.5.

Also, there is a pattern, but the AC/5 is not the one that deviates from the pattern. It's the AC/2 that does.

For proofs, here are the original (TT) heat values of each Autocannon:
AC/20: 7 (MWO reduced to 6)
AC/10: 3
AC/5: 1 (1.5 on the PTS)
AC/2: 1 (0.8 in MWO)

How do we get from 7 to 3? We divide by 2, and then round down.

How do we get from 3 to 1? We divide by 2 again, and round down again.

But the AC/2 for some reason didn't divide by 2 and didn't round down. By TT's own formula, the AC/2 would arguably sit at zero heat. 1 / 2 = 0.5, 0.5 rounded down = 0.

TT also shafted the damage per shell (should be 2.5) and the damage per ton of ammo (90 instead of 100) for it as well. FASA seriously hated the AC/2 for some reason...

Edited by FupDup, 22 August 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

It seems to me that they noticed people saying dakka would do very well under this system and hit AC5s harder to compensate. I don't think it had much impact on UAC5s, though.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rouken Vordermark, on 22 August 2016 - 10:40 AM, said:

It seems to me that they noticed people saying dakka would do very well under this system and hit AC5s harder to compensate. I don't think it had much impact on UAC5s, though.

Yeah this is my fault, I didn't think they would nerf the AC5 that hard.. maybe a slight DPS adjustment would have been better?

[The Basilisk]

FupDup, on 22 August 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

[...]
TT also shafted the damage per shell (should be 2.5) and the damage per ton of ammo (90 instead of 100) for it as well. FASA seriously hated the AC/2 for some reason...

Obvious reason is its range and to prevent lights and meds to use longrange ballistics to much effect.
Due to the engine efficency of lights and meds they need to be limited on short and med range and single longrange weapons.
Their maneuverability advantage over heavy weapon platforms (aka assaults) would be to great.
(Surprise surprise assaults in MWO are ineffective due to the exactly this problem, cause terrain has no noticable effect on meds and lights, ya know light or med runns at 100kph into water and keeps his legs or just turns at a hundret kph on a city street without skidding and crashing into a building distributing his internals over two blocks and stuff)

[FupDup]

The Basilisk, on 22 August 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

Obvious reason is its range and to prevent lights and meds to use longrange ballistics to much effect.
Due to the engine efficency of lights and meds they need to be limited on short and med range and single longrange weapons.
Their maneuverability advantage over heavy weapon platforms (aka assaults) would be to great.

As opposed to lights and mediums making use of multiple long-range energy or missiles?

Really though, the AC/2's range is not out of line with the others. It falls exactly into the standard pattern of other ACs.

AC/20: 9 hexes
AC/10: 15 hexes (+6)
AC/5: 18 hexes (+3)
AC/2: 24 hexes (+6)

If anything, the AC/5 should have been +6 instead of +3 (which would also ripple out to buff the AC/2 as well).


The AC/2 boogeyman is a lie.

Edited by FupDup, 22 August 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 22 August 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

The PTS nerfs the AC/5 heat to 1.5.

Also, there is a pattern, but the AC/5 is not the one that deviates from the pattern. It's the AC/2 that does.

I missed the heat nerf for some reason, if that's the case then yes the AC2 is now the one that deviates the most.

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Yeah this is my fault, I didn't think they would nerf the AC5 that hard.. maybe a slight DPS adjustment would have been better?

With 2 of them they are still about double the DPS of Gauss so I don't think it was all unnecessary, I'd say they could find a middle man between what it is now and what it would be if they had only done the 15% nerf.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

I missed the heat nerf for some reason, if that's the case then yes the AC2 is now the one that deviates the most.


With 2 of them they are still about double the DPS of Gauss so I don't think it was all unnecessary, I'd say they could find a middle man between what it is now and what it would be if they had only done the 15% nerf.

Do keep in mind that the Goose does 50% more upfront damage, requires a few tons of less weight, only 1 hardpoint, less facetime (since you're alpha striking instead of DPS'ing) greater velocity, and greater range.

I'm not saying that the values are perfect for either weapon type, but double AC/5 should have significantly more Dee Pee Ess than a Goose or else there would be little reason to use AC/5 instead of Goose.

Edited by FupDup, 22 August 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 22 August 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

I'm not saying that the values are perfect for either weapon type, but double AC/5 should have significantly more Dee Pee Ess than a Goose or else there would be little reason to use AC/5 instead of Goose.

It doesn't take much for DPS to start to overwhelm it, especially when you combine it with UAC5s, I do think it could stand to have more DPS than it does currently though.

[SpiralFace]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

So should the AC10 and AC20 do less DPS than an AC5 as well, since it takes 2-4 AC5 projectiles to equal ONE AC10 or AC20, without any other drawbacks, other than the projectile velocity and range differences which apparently don't matter.

No, but they should be relatively balanced against each other within the context of their entire stat line and not just a single value. Otherwise you could argue that shouldn't it be the AC 2.5 because its the only one that doesn't halve or double on the adjacent classes of auto-cannons?

At least with the AC 5, twin AC 5's double up to equal a single projectile damage from a 10. Even if you "doubled up" on an AC 2, your still at only 80% of the total damage of a single 5.

Again, no horse in this race. The only thing I care about at the end is relative balance between everything. From what I've seen so far, yeah, the extra dps on the 2's seems odd, but the fact that it also has many negatives that fail to line up to the rest of the ballistic line ups still doesn't make me think its relatively "unbalanced" to the 5 even with its current stat line.

I'll happily welcome AC 5 buffs if the AC 2 is shown to be out of sync with it through in-game performance, but I have yet to see the AC 2's cause any kind of indication through the PTS that they are unbalanced with the AC 5 and their current values being what they are.