87 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Acutually we have: PPCs, Flamers, Lasers, ACs/Gauss, SRMs
I miss: LRMS, machine guns, LBX

FTFY

A couple Flamers added to a brawler is a comp tier build (read: good). PPCs are coming back in droves, on the Clan side especially, and on the IS side as well when quirks are present.

[Khobai]

pgis energy draw cannot become perfect because its inherently a flawed idea and a bad direction for the game

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Mech balance is utterly bad. Otherwise you wouldn't need to quirk the hell out of some mechs. As a dedicated medium pilot I could write a PHD thesis about what's wrong with mech balance ...

Quirks are the only way to fix mech balance.....what do you think would even come close to fixing the difference between the Vindicator or Phoenix Hawk versus a Hunchback IIC?

[Khobai]

quirks arnt the only potential way to balance mechs

mechs could also be balanced by revamping the skill and module systems

for example a skill system where each mech gets its own unique skill tree to match its role

and a module system where modules are divided into categories and the number of module slots for each category that a mech gets differs from mech to mech

or maybe even just combine the skill/module system into one giant module system where both skills and modules get slotted into slots on each mech.

Edited by Khobai, 22 August 2016 - 11:32 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

JC Daxion, on 22 August 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

I dunno, just go look at the latest event.. If mechs were really balances you would see more than 3 mechs in each class.. Heavy cue is the only one that has any sort of balance when it comes to top performers.. Lights and assaults are a total joke.. Mediums are not far behind.

Assaults are bad because of an outlier (Kodiak).

Lights got pretty rekt by the rescale, and haven't been properly balanced since. There is an issue among the community, where part of the group wants lights to be useless until PGI adds "tasks" for them to do in matches, where as the other side wants them to be able to do damage (in their own way of course.. exploiting angles, and taking advantage of their mobility). The former camp thinks the ACH is OP. The latter thinks the rest of the lights are UP. They need listen to the latter and help out all the lights that got rekt by the rescale.

Mediums.. as far as these guys go there is actually a lot of overlap in roles. At the same time, in a tourney event, if two mechs are similar but one is SLIGHTLY better, which one are people going to use? That doesn't mean balance is terrible, expecting 100% perfect balance is a pretty tall order.

Heavies, like you say are pretty good, but the point about mediums applies here as well.

[Johnny Z]

So now if Energy Draw is perfect its not good enough? Seriously? Really? That a new one.

Eve was yet another game that came out quite different than the rest of the games out and still is. Its done well because of that. Good for them but that game is last gen and unless it gets a total upgrade Star Citizen will bury it.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 August 2016 - 11:31 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

quirks arnt the only potential way to balance mechs

mechs could also be balanced by revamping the skill and module systems

Well what would that solve? Essentially give mechs quirk-like benefits but through an XP level out system and C-Bill cost equipment system (modules)? How is that different from just giving the mechs the quirks to start with other than making the gap between a mastered mech and a new mech larger.

[Spleenslitta]

I just had to add one more thing to my textwall post. It's a picture and 4 sentences.
One of those sentences is me ridiculing myself...
Might calm down those who think keeping an eye on a missile bar, recoil bar, power bar and the heat bar at the same time.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

quirks arnt the only potential way to balance mechs

mechs could also be balanced by revamping the skill and module systems

Unless they give a lot of extra to under-performers and practically nothing to the current top, it won't change anything. If it does give extra stuff to the under-performers, than it really isn't that much different from quirks, just arbitrary buffs to help out mechs with inherent flaws.

[Khobai]

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d unless it gets a total upgrade Star Citizen will bury it.

no it wont lmao

you think way too highly of star citizen if you think it will in any way bury eve online

star citizen is going to fall way short of everyones expectations just like no mans sky.

Quote

Unless they give a lot of extra to under-performers and practically nothing to the current top, it won't change anything. If it does give extra stuff to the under-performers, than it really isn't that much different from quirks, just arbitrary buffs to help out mechs with inherent flaws.

The whole point of balancing is to make all mechs roughly the same.

Which is why I hate the concept of energy draw because it totally !@#$s over mixed loadout mechs and makes boating supreme.

Edited by Khobai, 22 August 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

pgis energy draw cannot become perfect because its inherently a flawed idea and a bad direction for the game

No, looks like it will be pretty close to perfect. This new tactic that even if it is its not good enough is funny though.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

quirks arnt the only potential way to balance mechs

mechs could also be balanced by revamping the skill and module systems

The skill tree is basically quirks that require XP to unlock instead of being free.

Modules are like quirks that require both C-Bills and GXP to unlock.

[Spleenslitta]

Johnny Z, on 22 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

So now if Energy Draw is perfect its not good enough? Seriously? Really? That a new one.

Eve was yet another game that came out quite different than the rest of the games out and still is. Its done well because of that. Good for them but that game is last gen and unless it gets a total upgrade Star Citizen will bury it.

Point with bringing up EVE was simple....compare EVE and MWO because they are both niche games.
It is to make people imagine what it would be like if MWO had such success.

[Johnny Z]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

no it wont lmao

you think way too highly of star citizen if you think it will in any way bury eve online

star citizen is going to fall way short of everyones expectations just like no mans sky.

Looks like Star Citizen will do pretty good after recent reveals. The ONLY ones playing Eve if it doesn't upgrade is the ones that have invested tons of time and money into it or those that don't know any better. Eve is last gen game, and games don't last longer than at most 10 years?

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 August 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[Khobai]

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Eve is last gen game, and games don't last longer than at most 10 years?

games last as long as people are willing to play them

world of warcraft has been going on 12 years and is still one of the most top 5 played games

[Johnny Z]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

games last as long as people are willing to play them

world of warcraft has been going on 12 years and is still one of the most top 5 played games

Sad isn't it? I am not trying to be mean, its just sad. World of Warcraft was never next gen which makes it even sadder.

Luckily MechWarrior Online is next gen.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 August 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

The whole point of balancing is to make all mechs roughly the same. equally useful.

You are correct, but you would need arbitrary bonuses for inherently flawed mechs to actually make them balanced without arbitrary bonuses the Vindicator will NEVER be as good as the Hunchback IIC.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2016 - 11:44 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

I got a little tiny question because i'm curious. How many of you actually read my entire textwall post at the start of the thread and took a look inside those two links?
Just curious.

[Khobai]

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Sad isn't it? I am not trying to be mean, its just sad. World of Warcraft was never next gen which makes it even sadder.

but thats my point. games dont need to upgrade graphics for people to keep playing them

look at minecraft it has some of the worst graphics ever but its one of the most popular games of all time

eve online doesnt need to complete with star citizen in graphics to retain its players. as long as eve online fills a niche that star citizen cant do better. and star citizen wont do it better from what weve seen.

star citizen is going to hit a development brickwall because they made the absolutely ******** decision to use cryengine. and when that happens its going to be hilarious.

Quote

You are correct, but you would need arbitrary bonuses for inherently flawed mechs to actually make them balanced without arbitrary bonuses the Vindicator will NEVER be as good as the Hunchback IIC.

which is where role warfare comes in.

a vindicator will never be as good as a hunchback as long as they compete at the same role

but if they had different roles then they wouldnt really be comparable

Edited by Khobai, 22 August 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[xe N on]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 11:26 AM, said:

Quirks are the only way to fix mech balance.....what do you think would even come close to fixing the difference between the Vindicator or Phoenix Hawk versus a Hunchback IIC?

Energy. Draw.

Why is the hunchback 2C better than e.g. Vindicator?

One aspect is, that it can stack weapons. Lasers. SRMs. ACs. It has a large amount of hardpoints. However, What would happen, if the Hunchback 2C is limited to an effective alpha of 30? It would make all my SHDs much happier ...

Energy draw could solves a major problem*: hard point inflation.

* if tweaked correctly

Give the Kodiak the same weapon hardpoints as the Atlas and it would perform much worser.

You are correct that quirks even with ED cannot be removed completely, but they could be reduced.

Edited by xe N on, 22 August 2016 - 11:53 AM.