87 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

pgis energy draw cannot become perfect because its inherently a flawed idea and a bad direction for the game

yep, this tells me all i need to know and make a conclusive decision about the differences in the mechanics

[Johnny Z]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

but thats my point. games dont need to upgrade graphics for people to keep playing them

look at minecraft it has some of the worst graphics ever but its one of the most popular games of all time

eve online doesnt need to complete with star citizen in graphics to retain its players. as long as eve online fills a niche that star citizen cant do better. and star citizen wont do it better from what weve seen.

]

Ya but those were never that good to start with. Players wanted a Sci-fi sim they got Eve. Players wanted to be in an adventure movie they got World of Warcraft.

Minecraft is like lego and some players like that and that's fine.

Again if MechWarrior Online put any effort into trying to do what MechWarrior 2 did then players would get a pretty decent sci-fi sim experience. But looks like its Bobbleheads only up until now. I can see why players are mad at that.

Edited by Johnny Z, 22 August 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:49 AM, said:

Energy. Draw.

Why is the hunchback 2C better than e.g. Vindicator?

However, What would happen, if the Hunchback 2C is limited to an effective alpha of 30?

To answer your question, absolutely nothing changes because the current meta Hunchback IIC is unaffected by energy draw because it runs 2 ERPPCs (in tourney, live, and PTS). So the Hunchback IIC is still THE best medium and still a much better than the Vindi.

Energy draw doesn't solve mech balance.

[Spleenslitta]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

but thats my point. games dont need to upgrade graphics for people to keep playing them

look at minecraft it has some of the worst graphics ever but its one of the most popular games of all time

eve online doesnt need to complete with star citizen in graphics to retain its players. as long as eve online fills a niche that star citizen cant do better. and star citizen wont do it better from what weve seen.

Kind of my point of bringing up EVE. I want to imagine MWO getting new players with a mechanic that stands out.
Ghost Heat and Energy Draw just don't stand out enough.
Both of GH and ED are like a couple of zombies with plain stabwounds in their bellies....

No spectular wounds like....a zombie walking around with an active chainsaw inside it's arse.
GH and ED bring no....zaaasam or whatever.

[Khobai]

Quote

Energy draw doesn't solve mech balance.

to the contrary it makes it worse

because mixed loadouts are punished

while boated loadouts are rewarded

[xe N on]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

To answer your question, absolutely nothing changes because the current meta Hunchback IIC is unaffected by energy draw because it runs 2 ERPPCs (in tourney, live, and PTS). So the Hunchback IIC is still THE best medium and still a much better than the Vindi.

Energy draw doesn't solve mech balance.

Until now, I never saw any 2 ER-PPC hunchback. It has low dps. It has high heat. It has no velocity quirks.

With ED, why would a hunchback 2C with 2ER-PPC better than a SHD-2K with 3 PPC?

Edited by xe N on, 22 August 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

for example a skill system where each mech gets its own unique skill tree to match its role

Ok.. maybe i am missing something.. But how is this not a quirks system? If you take skills that improve a mech, How is that not exactly what we have with quirks? Each mech has individual quirks.. If each mech had an individual skill system, that gave boosts isn't that the same thing, Only a far more difficult thing to go and tweak everyime?

Instead of just a bunch of bonus values to change you would need to change entire skill tress. Sounds like tons more work for the exact same effect..


Now modules on the other hand i could see.. Adding flags that certain mechs CAN or CANNOT use could be an added layer of balance, outside of module numbers..

aka maybe a timber wolf might only be able to load missile modules, or Or maybe a Kodiak KDK-3 can not add ballistics, they can only load up energy.. (yes i know the outrage that would cause.. lol ) But that is one way to help balance with out giving negitive quirks, Just take away the performance boosts on top mechs/weapons that make um even better performing

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

With ED, why would a hunchback 2C with 2ER-PPC better than a SHD-2K with 3 PPC?

Clan XL, better mounts, better velocity (due to TC), no minimum range, longer total range.

The better question is why you are taking a SHD-2K with 3 PPC over a BJ-3 with 3 PPC?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Clan XL, better mounts, better velocity (due to TC), no minimum range, longer total range.

I think you end up faster as well, with more DHS.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 11:55 AM, said:

Until now, I never saw any 2 ER-PPC hunchback. It has low dps. It has high heat. It has no velocity quirks.

And despite that it is the medium of choice for the top units currently in the tournament, and the rescale and PTS left it untouched.

[xe N on]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

to the contrary it makes it worse

because mixed loadouts are punished

while boated loadouts are rewarded

Mixed loadouts. LoL! With "mixed" loadouts you mean loadouts like:
- Gauss + Laser
- AC + Laser
- Large Laser + Medium Laser
- SRMs + AC20 + Short Lasers

For me, that is not "mixed". It is still stacking compatible weapons to maximize alpha.

"mixed" weapon loadouts are e.g. 3 ER-LL for long range and 3 SRM6 for brawling.

Mixed loadouts should aim on different weapons for different situations.

[Tordin]

CapperDeluxe, on 22 August 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Having 3 new bars is really not a good idea. Not because of balance issues, that part may be fine, the problem is that it starts to overcomplicate the UI in a way that would be detrimental to the experience.

Immersion you know! More doodads and stuff to evaluate on the screens and hud the better..


Seriously I think the power draw will be great, though they might up the heat penality for energy weapons a bit. Certain.. build including boating lpl for example dosent make alpha striking that worrysome to do. Yeah I know Russ mentioned that the power draw wasnt meant to murderly punish alpha strikes but make more Spread" use of weapon systems.

[JC Daxion]

Khobai, on 22 August 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

no it wont lmao

you think way too highly of star citizen if you think it will in any way bury eve online

star citizen is going to fall way short of everyones expectations just like no mans sky.

Star Citizen won't touch EVE.. they are night and day. EVE is the biggest pvp MMO on the market, with global corperations, and politics rule the day.. SC, is a RPG, with sandbox aspects, that you can adventure in space, and on ground, and explore.. on servers with 64 other people.. (isn't that the max or has it increased?) even so, they are not even going after the same market.. I don't even think elite dangerous is close enough to be worth thinking about.. though i do suspect some fans of that, and say X3 might find SC to their liking.. Way to early to tell.


SC, i have high hopes for sure.. But my hopes for that game don't rest on 2017.. I am thinking,, 2020 the game might be something i really can sink my teeth into.

Tordin, on 22 August 2016 - 12:00 PM, said:

Immersion you know! More doodads and stuff to evaluate on the screens and hud the better..


Seriously I think the power draw will be great, though they might up the heat penality for energy weapons a bit. Certain.. build including boating lpl for example dosent make alpha striking that worrysome to do. Yeah I know Russ mentioned that the power draw wasnt meant to murderly punish alpha strikes but make more Spread" use of weapon systems.

Yea an extra bar is no biggy.. Kinda like the JJ bar.. its simple to see/use/understand.

But i don't think it will really effect energy weapons much.. in fact as it is now, it works better for some, unless it gets tweaked more, you can fire 3 LL's or 3 LPL's, then wait a sec, and fire your ac-20 or SRM stack or quad ML's and such.. And you can still alpha if you don't mind the extra heat

Edited by JC Daxion, 22 August 2016 - 12:04 PM.

[xe N on]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Clan XL, better mounts, better velocity (due to TC), no minimum range, longer total range.

And only 20 PPFLD. While IS got 30. The other advantages can be quirked slightly in favor of the SHD. But currently you would need to add some insame quirks to make the SHD worthwhile

Quote

The better question is why you are taking a SHD-2K with 3 PPC over a BJ-3 with 3 PPC?

Blackjack would be fine too, but since it sizes was increased I really see no advantage in this case over SHD-2K. Currently, without ED, the game mechanics clearly favor the Blackjack. No doubt.

Edited by xe N on, 22 August 2016 - 12:05 PM.

[JC Daxion]

I have a feeling you won't be able to fire 3 PPC's even IS side by the time this goes live..

[Spleenslitta]

I give up...nobody wants to talk about alternative ideas to ED or GH. Just mech balance.
Proof that i'm being ignored....i posted this post and nobody even said anything.

Spleenslitta, on 22 August 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Kind of my point of bringing up EVE. I want to imagine MWO getting new players with a mechanic that stands out.
Ghost Heat and Energy Draw just don't stand out enough.
Both of GH and ED are like a couple of zombies with plain stabwounds in their bellies....

No spectular wounds like....a zombie walking around with an active chainsaw inside it's arse.
GH and ED bring no....zaaasam or whatever.

Put up a picture in the first post that explained how small a problem it would be to keep an eye on 3 bars.
No response....oh well. Ain't the first time and probably won't be the last.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Blackjack would be fine too, but since it sizes was increased I really see no advantage in this case over SHD-2K

You mean other than it having near the same heat efficiency and better velocity quirks on top of being better at poking than the 2K?

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

And only 20 PPFLD. While IS got 30. The other advantages can be quirked slightly in favor of the SHD. But currently you would need to add some insame quirks to make the SHD worthwhile

Bolded the important part because it is moving the goal posts. The rest is just silly, the Shadow Hawk doesn't need any crazy quirks in live so much as the PPC ghost heat threshold just needs to go up to 3 instead of 2 in live and then both SHD in live and the PTS would need the same level of quirks, problem solved.

[Gas Guzzler]

xe N on, on 22 August 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

And only 20 PPFLD. While IS got 30. The other advantages can be quirked slightly in favor of the SHD. But currently you would need to add some insame quirks to make the SHD worthwhile

Two things. One, you could just raise the PPC ghost heat limit and accomplish the same thing for the SHD.
Two, PGI is likely to raise the draw value of PPCs on the PTS so it is not longer viable for a mech like the SHD, based on complaints of 3 PPCs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 August 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

Two, PGI is likely to raise the draw value of PPCs on the PTS so it is not longer viable for a mech like the SHD, based on complaints of 3 PPCs.

This makes me so sad, and a little disappointed they pre-emptively nerfed AC5s.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 22 August 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

MWO failed as a Mechwarrior game a long, long time ago. The most obvious thing we see is tht we have IS mechs that have more customization than Clan Omnimech when the defining characteristic of an Omnimech was its customizability. Also the game is very shallow and would pretty much require a complete remake to correct this.

Honestly, what they should have attempted to model was a MW:LL experience especially since they already had a outline for how it could work and that is what everyone wanted out of the game but this is what we got.

Honestly, we aren't going to get a good Mechwarrior game until PGI gives up/loses the licence and someone committed to doing it right pick it up again.