87 replies to this topic

[AztecD]

Yet i still played EVE-Online for 5+years, yes its hard, but once you wrap your brain around it, its a very cool game, start in the "safe" empires and move to 0.0 space when you feel up to it, everyone on the same server/world, its excellent.

i would pay a monthly subscription to MWO if it moved in that direction, but alas we can only dream, its way to hard for PGI to do. They are reluctant to implement heat effects for crying out loud, and i don't mean a copy/paste from TT rules, but something, anything from that heat effects table, but nothing, instead they come with this complex/mixed mechanic of Power-draw.

sigh

[AztecD]

Here is another one from EVE-Online, and yes its a very accurate representation of how hard it is.

[Chuck Jager]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 August 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

Clan XL, better mounts, better velocity (due to TC), no minimum range, longer total range.

The better question is why you are taking a SHD-2K with 3 PPC over a BJ-3 with 3 PPC?

I think everybody is still basing this argument assuming PPC quirks will be kept and the GH to Draw changes to heat uses will stay the same as they are now. I have played BJ and SHK a ton, but the Hunchie IIc just feels better.

[Drunken Skull]

It doesn't matter either way now, the damage is already done.

It's funny you brought EVE up in this analogy though, because CCP did a similar thing that was equally as stupid and detrimental to their game.

Back a while now, can't remember the exact date, CCP listened to someone they shouldn't have, and decided to try and monetize first person play on stations. The thing that did the real damage here wasn't Walk in Stations, or even the monetization of it through real-cash-only clothing and other bauble-head micro-transactions. It was the mandatory Graphics card minimum that was slapped onto the game, where previously anyone with a functioning potato could play. The very next day most of us didn't log back on, not because we didn't want to, but because we couldn't as our potatoes fell below the "NEW" minimum requirement. It was a very similar experience to the introduction of Ghost Heat. People just didn't log back in the next day, and many haven't, and won't be, returning.

The EVE company I was in, before WiS and GFX card minimums, was easily over 100 players/accounts (many players wold run up to 5 or 6 accounts simultaneously) active at any one time. After, it was like an apocalypse or something had wiped them all out, nobody logged back in after the update, all gone, never to return. Sure some people still played, but things in EVE have never been the same since.

Same thing happened to MWO with the Ghost Heat, everyone in a 48 strong unit(bar 3 die hards) said "F**K it" and never came back. People didn't want this level of hand-holding in MWO, the truth is Ghost Heat broke many builds, and took away the most entertaining things we had in game.

As for Balance, that's ridiculously easy to fix, just remove all hard point restrictions all together, if it fits crit-wize and it fits tonnage-wise that should be all the restrictions we need. PGI's "NEED" to hold our hands while we make our mechs is another reason all this is falling down like a house of cards. The more restrictions, the less the imagination, very simple really.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 22 August 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Perfect is relative. Depends what you want to accomplish. If I'm a waiter, I could give a guest at my restaurant the most perfect knife in the history of mankind. But if he wants a soup, what does he care about how perfect the knife is?

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Alistair Winter, on 22 August 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

Perfect is relative. Depends what you want to accomplish. If I'm a waiter, I could give a guest at my restaurant the most perfect knife in the history of mankind. But if he wants a soup, what does he care about how perfect the knife is?

What is the metal composition of this knife?

Has the metal been folded numerous times?

Has it been enchanted to a +5?

I am pretty sure if I was a guest and ordered soup, but instead recieved a Gundonium +5 vorpal katana of everything slaying... i would be quite pleased and would probably be inclined to tip a bit more then usual.

[Drunken Skull]

Alistair Winter, on 22 August 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

Perfect is relative. Depends what you want to accomplish. If I'm a waiter, I could give a guest at my restaurant the most perfect knife in the history of mankind. But if he wants a soup, what does he care about how perfect the knife is?

Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, on 22 August 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

What is the metal composition of this knife?

Has the metal been folded numerous times?

Has it been enchanted to a +5?

I am pretty sure if I was a guest and ordered soup, but instead recieved a Gundonium +5 vorpal katana of everything slaying... i would be quite pleased and would probably be inclined to tip a bit more then usual.

Great for you, you are easily distracted by shiny sparkly things, what about the rest of us who now have to eat our soup with our fingers?

Edited by Drunken Skull, 22 August 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Drunken Skull, on 22 August 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

Great for you, you are easily distracted by shiny sparkly things, what about the rest of us who now have to eat our soup with our fingers?

Actually... I am not sure you were brought soup... You have to ask the DM if you were brought you soup...

But dont worry, now that we got a Gundonium +5 vorpal katana of everything slaying, we can go into the goblin encampment and try to make a couple copper pieces to buy soup at a different restaurant! If we are lucky enough, we might find enough gold that you can buy more then just soup!

[Andi Nagasia]

Gyrok, on 22 August 2016 - 10:36 AM, said:

The problem is that energy draw is a waste of development resources on reinventing the ghost heat wheel, when it could be spent on actually fixing things that are broken, like faction warfare, or maybe Assault game mode, or advancing the timeline to add new weapons instead of more mech packs.

By the way...regardless of what happens with power draw...unless the rest of the game changes, you will still be asking each other if you want to buy a mech pack in another year.

It is a waste of resources. My advice is to spend a week fixing GH that we have now, add a little UI component and call it a day.

obviously PGI doesnt think its a waste of time, or they wouldnt have spent development resources on it,
Ghost heat has holes, and id rather have Energy Draw, then have All lasers in the same GH group,
edit- spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 August 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[AlphaToaster]

Unless I'm missing something, if they perfect power draw we can get rid of ghost heat. That's it.

I don't even feel bad if people are expecting stomps to somehow go away. I just want them to come here and post about it so I have something funny to read.

[Johnny Z]

AlphaToaster, on 22 August 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

Unless I'm missing something, if they perfect power draw we can get rid of ghost heat. That's it.

I don't even feel bad if people are expecting stomps to somehow go away. I just want them to come here and post about it so I have something funny to read.

I have not seen a topic about stomps in quite a while. I guess there will be even less of those after power draw is in or what.

[Alex Morgaine]

If it was perfect? Someone would figure or a way to game the system and people would complain about the new meta that forms from it. Or no one games the system... And people complain about the meta that does or does not form from it.

[Drunken Skull]

Alex Morgaine, on 22 August 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

If it was perfect? Someone would figure or a way to game the system and people would complain about the new meta that forms from it. Or no one games the system... And people complain about the meta that does or does not form from it.

Exactly. As long as there's been an Online MW experience, there's been Salt over it. There always was and always will be Salt. From the tearful mech-jockey who got PPC'd in the head one too many times, to the LRM's are OP'ist cults, there always was, and always will be, Salt.

What PGI needs to do is realize that this Salt is indicative of PVP sandboxes, and needs to step back and steer clear of knee-jerk reactions that f**k the rest of the game in the process. They may have placated a salty mech-jockey or two with Ghost Heat, but at what cost? Most of the community evaporated overnight because of that "Great Idea", and a greater portion of gameplay and content is rendered useless by it needlessly.

The core of MW gameplay is breaking the other guys toy, as long as that is occurring, the "other guy" is going to find a way to be legitimately salty about it. The only way to stop the flow of salt would be to stop people from being able to break each others toys, and if you do that, then you don't even have a game anymore. Perhaps if we were all equally equipped with only a foam baton to clobber each other, the salt would subside, but honestly, who the f**k would want to play that? Well get used to the idea, because as long as PGI continues to eat the wrong peoples Salt, that is the direction we are headed in.

Edited by Drunken Skull, 22 August 2016 - 04:56 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

They may have placated a salty mech-jockey or two with Ghost Heat, but at what cost?

That is assuming it was to placate anyone. Remember, the other titles were single player campaigns with multiplayer aspect. Any patches were to fix technical issues. The other MPBT and MWLL did not have a Mechlab.

So basically, PGI is and has been breaking new ground on tranlating the board game and previous PC games into MWO. I am definitely not saying it has been perfect, fall from it for many different reasons. Will PGI meet the goals set for with this comes up for renewal 2018? /shrugs. Would they allow it to expire? Maybe, especially if it generates enough funds to use on their next non-BT project but not enough to keep the license.

That is simply lots of ifs. We all know things are not forever, but... who the frak am I kidding..

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 22 August 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[Davers]

Spleenslitta, on 22 August 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

Kind of my point of bringing up EVE. I want to imagine MWO getting new players with a mechanic that stands out.
Ghost Heat and Energy Draw just don't stand out enough.
Both of GH and ED are like a couple of zombies with plain stabwounds in their bellies....

No spectular wounds like....a zombie walking around with an active chainsaw inside it's arse.
GH and ED bring no....zaaasam or whatever.

GH, Energy Draw, or even a perfect representation of TT's heat scale are not really things that bring the 'Wow' factor.

Andi Nagasia, on 22 August 2016 - 03:55 PM, said:

obviously PGI doesnt think its a waste of time, or they wouldnt have spent development resources on it,
Ghost heat has holes, and id rather have Energy Draw, then have All lasers in the same GH group,
edit- spelling

New school gamers love unified mechanics, while old school gamers love all kinds of quirky subsystems.

Johnny Z, on 22 August 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

I have not seen a topic about stomps in quite a while. I guess there will be even less of those after power draw is in or what.

Power Draw will have nothing to do with the number of stomps. Stomps are the natural progression of single elimination systems. In fact, "close matches" are mostly due to poor coordination rather than players being equally skilled.

[PhoenixFire55]

What if ... what if ... what if. Too many what ifs during 4 years of development with nothing to show for it.
At some point Eve was progressing and getting better. MWO is regressing and getting worse by the day. Don't need to be a genius to see where this is going. Nothing but MechPacks and dumb events every week to make at least someone play.

[Steinar Bergstol]

Drunken Skull, on 22 August 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

As for Balance, that's ridiculously easy to fix, just remove all hard point restrictions all together, if it fits crit-wize and it fits tonnage-wise that should be all the restrictions we need. PGI's "NEED" to hold our hands while we make our mechs is another reason all this is falling down like a house of cards. The more restrictions, the less the imagination, very simple really.

In two words: Bugger that!

We can customize mechs far too much as it is. I'd rather see the mechlab disappear altogether than PGI allowing even more customization freedom! At that point you might as well toss the setting out the window altogether and just name it Big Shooty Generic Robots. Any steps in this abominable direction would make me abandon the game in a heartbeat.

Customization is the bane of balance and variety, and it has been since the start of Mechwarrior.

Edited by Steinar Bergstol, 23 August 2016 - 02:47 AM.

[Crushko]

Alienized, on 22 August 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

power draw will just be a worse ghost heat totally screwing up mixed builds and mechs that depend on them or alpha strikes at close range.

theres no way balancing power draw for all weapon systems equally as ghost heat does it.

Exactly.

I don't understand why Ghost Heat isnt appreciated more. It prevents unwanted builds like firing 4 PPCs in sync and it rewards - for example - adding two medium lasers to a LBX 40 build.

With Energy Draw all builds will try to sustain those 30 (20) DPS or whatever it will be, as good as possible. Most likely it will lead to more not less boating.

[Mycrus]

they want to cater to the lowest term (mouth breather)...

for some reason they think that mouth breathers have disposable income to keep them afloat...

[Gas Guzzler]

Steinar Bergstol, on 23 August 2016 - 02:46 AM, said:

In two words: Bugger that!

We can customize mechs far too much as it is. I'd rather see the mechlab disappear altogether than PGI allowing even more customization freedom! At that point you might as well toss the setting out the window altogether and just name it Big Shooty Generic Robots. Any steps in this abominable direction would make me abandon the game in a heartbeat.

Customization is the bane of balance and variety, and it has been since the start of Mechwarrior.

Customization has been part of MechWarrior for 20 years. If you don't like it then you don't have to use it. No customization, no MechWarrior as far as I am concerned. Also, its impossible to balance stock builds amongst each other, so no way would balance be better without customization.