92 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 23 August 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

So you agree with me?

I agree with you, I'm just saying it won't stop it from being the best.

[Aresye]

The only solution is 1:1 disparity within tonnages. This isn't Overwatch where you can change heros mid-game in order to counter the opposing team.

Trying to balance different mechanics and play styles between the two tech bases doesn't work in a game in which you have no way of knowing what your opponent is taking, and no way of switching mid-game.

[Alistair Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

I agree with you, I'm just saying it won't stop it from being the best.

To be honest, I think some mechs need negative quirks. The CPLT-K2 has a nerfed torso twist, why not the Kodiak 3? Or even straight negative quirks?

People are like "No, just buff every other mech in the game". Power creep ftw

[dervishx5]

Pfft, try to come up with a working system that acknowledges some mechs are crap and others great that doesn't resemble quirks.

Might be easier to build a new game engine than fix that problem.

[Kaveli]

Leaderboards are based on match score. They match score is based on damage, participation, mechs and components destroyed. If the Kdk3 dominates because it has a pure Dakka design that boats heat efficient, high damage, flexible range, and strategically positioned hard points, then that's just a byproduct of the mechs design. It can be just as easily taken out by focus fire, light swarm and poor positioning. It's a mech that will have a higher potential than many mechs to score higher based on the grading system within the game but that doesn't mean it's inherently OP unless we only care about match score.
Based on my experience match score doesn't guarantee victory, and damage potential doesn't mean it will beat every mech it crosses. If left unchecked, the kdk3 can be one of the most deadly mechs on the field and until people make that connection then people will continue to lose to them.

[Davegt27]

The KDK's are still pretty new so that might explain the reason for them being on top

they have to give new Mechs a boost or there would be a ton of people asking for refunds

seems logical to me, later new Mechs always get nerfed down

its the cooode of the west lol

PGI does a pretty good job of catering to the cry babies always asking to nerf this or that

I am sure it wont be to long before the KDK will get nerfed down

Edited by Davegt27, 23 August 2016 - 06:54 PM.

[Scout Derek]

Freebrewer Bmore, on 23 August 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

By now I know PGI has amassed enough data for this balance problem to be obvious, yet I see nothing in the new patch fixing it.

Even WE have data, like here:
http://mwomercs.com/...s?t=201605mechs
1st-place finishers: KDK5 - 3,409; KDK4 - 3,619; KDK2 - 3,906; KDK1 - 4,014; KDKSB - 4,440; KDK3 - 5,172
50th-place finishers: KDK5 - 2,044; KDK4 - 2,261; KDK1 - 2,419; KDK2 - 2,424; KDKSB - 2,777; KDK3 - 3,775

...and here: http://mwomercs.com/...t=201608assault
1st's: Victor - 3,080; Zeus - 3,392; Highlander - 3,477; Atlas - 3,674; Gargoyle - 3,733; Highlander IIC - 3,738; Mauler - 3,809; Awesome - 3,913; Executioner - 3,993; Banshee - 4,071; Stalker - 4,080; King Crab - 4,127; Warhawk - 4,162; Dire Wolf - 4,227; Battlemaster - 4,688; Kodiak - 5,488

75th's: Victor - 1,898; Highlander - 1,975; Zeus - 2,081; Gargoyle - 2,102; Executioner - 2,227; Banshee - 2,374; Highlander IIC - 2,391; Stalker - 2,412; Atlas - 2,444; Warhawk - 2,499; King Crab - 2,609; Awesome - 2,636; Battlemaster - 2,660; Mauler - 2,749; Dire Wolf - 2,818; Kodiak - 3,226

Obviously there are some shortcomings of this data into which PGI should have better insight (e.g. we're not sure just how many matches were run with each variant/chassis, and it'd be nice to see numbers from average-ish competitors in addition to the winning outliers), but it's pretty clear that a certain mech is head and shoulders above the rest.

...and in fact, the head and shoulders are all that said mech needs to expose in order to obliterate you in a couple salvos, at any range. It's simultaneously a beastly sniper, a beastly brawler, and a beastly blinding suppressive firer, plus it has enough mobility to frequently choose to engage at whatever range is bad for you and also avoid getting stabbed in the back, and enough armor to outlast multiple attackers if it does get caught alone.

But don't just let subjective nerf whining by myself or others sway you, PGI. Look at the objective freakin' data and freakin' fix the freakin' KDK3. PLEASE! Personally I'd recommend ghost-heating the absolute hell out of CUAC10's when more than 2 are fired AND linking that to CUAC5's (tho you could give the 5's a higher threshold when fired on their own, such that firing 4x5 would incur no ghost heat, but 3x10 or 2x10+1x5 would screw you; might also need to do something later about other configs, but decisively diluting 10's should go a long way toward making KDK3's a less ridiculously infuriating battlefield presence without needing a straight-up quirk nerf).

BTW Disclaimer: I own Kodiaks myself, but refuse to play the KDK3 until it's brought under control. It's a pity, because I really do enjoy dakka mechs. Easymode ain't my thing tho.

Really now? Nerf the 3 you say?

Even though I say it's cheese, it's fine where it's at.


Do you know why it has such a high score?

-Assault event, lotsa armor to eat

-Good Hardpoint placement

-Tonnage to fit the weapons that make it an assault

-Clan Tech + Battlemechs + 100 Tons = Pwns most IS Bmechs and Clan Omnis and Bmechs too.

It's not a matter of that it's strong, it's a matter of fact that other mechs don't share the majority of pros I just listed for it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 23 August 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

The CPLT-K2 has a nerfed torso twist

One of the many artifacts of an age long since past.

[SamsungNinja]

Everyone white-knighting the KDK needs to look inside themselves and admit that it's a Dire Wolf with none of the DWF's balancing drawbacks.

It has speed, high weapon mounts, and maneuverability. All of these things are what players defending the DWF cited as making it balanced when it released. Now, these made sense to me and so I got on board with those saying the DWF wasn't broken. If you walk in front of it, you're hosed, but they're easy to avoid and are vulnerable if caught alone.

Yeah, that doesn't apply to the Kodiak, and I'm failing to find a believable reason that it's balanced. I have nothing against that level of firepower, but I do when there's nothing keeping it in check.

[Darth Hotz]

DjPush, on 23 August 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

I don't know man... This community freaks out whenever the game gets hard. So what. There is a new mech that has some OP characteristics. If you don't want to get killed by this new mech. Develope a strategy to beat it. I think the kids in this game are too quick to ask the developers to change the difficulty settings on for them by nerfing every damn thing that gets released.

Hey, hey... hey...

Who remebers when video games where so hard that you and your friends would stay up all night, taking turns trying to beat levels or bosses? Grow a pair and some facial hair.

Davegt27, on 23 August 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

op your sort of jumping the gun

the leader board stats mean nothing without some frame of reference

maybe the leader board numbers are just for our benefit

was the leader board event applied before the bucket system or after
where players computer balanced yes or no

to many unknowns on our side to draw any kind of conclusions

Kaveli, on 23 August 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

Leaderboards are based on match score. They match score is based on damage, participation, mechs and components destroyed. If the Kdk3 dominates because it has a pure Dakka design that boats heat efficient, high damage, flexible range, and strategically positioned hard points, then that's just a byproduct of the mechs design. It can be just as easily taken out by focus fire, light swarm and poor positioning. It's a mech that will have a higher potential than many mechs to score higher based on the grading system within the game but that doesn't mean it's inherently OP unless we only care about match score.
Based on my experience match score doesn't guarantee victory, and damage potential doesn't mean it will beat every mech it crosses. If left unchecked, the kdk3 can be one of the most deadly mechs on the field and until people make that connection then people will continue to lose to them.

Davegt27, on 23 August 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

The KDK's are still pretty new so that might explain the reason for them being on top

they have to give new Mechs a boost or there would be a ton of people asking for refunds

seems logical to me, later new Mechs always get nerfed down

its the cooode of the west lol

PGI does a pretty good job co catering to the cry babies always asking to nerf this or that

I am sure it wont be to long before the KDK will get nerfed down

Scout Derek, on 23 August 2016 - 12:34 PM, said:

Really now? Nerf the 3 you say?

Even though I say it's cheese, it's fine where it's at.


Do you know why it has such a high score?

-Assault event, lotsa armor to eat

-Good Hardpoint placement

-Tonnage to fit the weapons that make it an assault

-Clan Tech + Battlemechs + 100 Tons = Pwns most IS Bmechs and Clan Omnis and Bmechs too.

It's not a matter of that it's strong, it's a matter of fact that other mechs don't share the majority of pros I just listed for it.

I can not listen to this crap anymore. Faction play or Pug, the KDK 3 is dominating everywhere, but still people are trying to defend that it is not op and shouldnt be nerfed because of various reasons:

- its the event
- its new
- money was paid
- others need to git gud
- its just not as bad as other assaults
- bla bla bla

I tell you the only reason why you dont want it nerfed:

BECAUSE IT FEELS SO GOOD TO STROKE YOUR EPEN AND TELL YOURSELF IT IS YOU AND NOT THE MECH.

I do own the Kodiak pack and in the KDK 3 I broke all of my personal records in this game. But I am not bigheaded enough not to see the reality of my skill level. The KDK 3 is the incarnation of power creep and it is the power creep that is slowly destroying this game.

[Kirkland Langue]

From the beginning of time (or at least the beginning of MWO) - I've advocated dynamic quirks that are based upon one particular performance/usage stat - and regularly buffs/nerfs mechs based upon that stat.

While I believe that such a system is needed in MWO more than basically any other game (simply because MWO is at the nexus of impossible to properly balance, and not affluent enough to hire a team of balance specialists whose entire job is tweaking balance as needed), the community as a whole, and PGI in particular, do not like the idea.

So instead we go about our merry way constantly requesting.. nay, demanding.. PGI manually tweak the balance of every mech and every weapon and every map.

[Kaveli]

Darth Hotz, on 23 August 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

I can not listen to this crap anymore. Faction play or Pug, the KDK 3 is dominating everywhere, but still people are trying to defend that it is not op and shouldnt be nerfed because of various reasons:

- its the event
- its new
- money was paid
- others need to git gud
- its just not as bad as other assaults
- bla bla bla

I tell you the only reason why you dont want it nerfed:

BECAUSE IT FEELS SO GOOD TO STROKE YOUR EPEN AND TELL YOURSELF IT IS YOU AND NOT THE MECH.

I do own the Kodiak pack and in the KDK 3 I broke all of my personal records in this game. But I am not bigheaded enough not to see the reality of my skill level. The KDK 3 is the incarnation of power creep and it is the power creep that is slowly destroying this game.

You quoted me but didn't read what I wrote. You're only basing a Mech as op on damage alone. The kdk3 runs like 2-3 common builds. It can be killed, it can be flanked, it can be easily beaten. If you literally are going to go off of damage alone which in my kdk3 people usually just stand in front and don't react then guess what? They get hosed just like a Dire.

It is faster than the dire, because you can put a bigger engine
It turns faster because it has a bigger engine.
It has higher mounts.
The dire can still do the same loadouts.

If we're talking strictly damage potential it's at the top of the food chain.

But can we seriously just get over it? I don't want to play a perfectly balanced game and kdk3 is strong but not unbeatable.

[FalconerGray]

dervishx5, on 23 August 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Might be easier to build a new game engine than fix that problem.

It's this.

[Davegt27]

yeah I am getting sick and tired also

"Mom I got killed again today"

you name me one stand alone game that you bought or one arcade game that you played in an arcade

that you went and contacted the manufacture and demanded them to change there game

I never had a problem with DW in 2014 or any mech that has came out since I started in Jun of 2014

I did get Microprose on the phone one time but you can probably guess how far that got me

If I was Russ I would tell you guys we designed the game this way if you don't like it go design your own game

the problem with crybabies is they expect people will listen to them and only them

now if you would say hey lets vote on nerfing the KDK's ok I could get behind that

1,647 Davegt27
1,557 is my score in the KDK-3 it does not seem OP to me
I am not asking PGI to buff or nerf any Mech

[CanadianCyrus]

It's not the mech, it's PGI's unwillingness to add new IS Tech to shore up the differences. With just the presence of the IS Ultra AC10, the potential for a lot of IS heavy/assault will increase dramatically, let alone the rest of the stuff IS is missing.

[Sorbic]

Not sure they should put much focus on tweaking other stuff when they are busy tweaking powerdraw/gh. Good way to get stuff muddled.

[Kirkland Langue]

Sorbic, on 23 August 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

muddled

Pretty accurate description of MWO as a whole.
In the long term, MWO will be remembered (by me) as a case study of how not to develop a game.

PGI took a well known IP, and built a game that ... resembles a number of other games on the market - but didn't bother to try and learn anything from any of those other games or the IP that they pulled from. Instead they took some artists, created the assets, and then tried to cobble together some kind of gameplay.

Even this late in the game, I bet they could find someone able to right the sinking ship. But I doubt they really want to.

[Rock Roller]

You all have missed the point. That includes the OP. The data clearly shows a desperate need to fix the VICTOR!!!!!!!!

[The Lost Boy]

There is a new mech that has some OP characteristics.

Some?!

Some?!

The Kodiak 3 is the best mech in game by far. What glaring weakness does it have? A big CT, sure, but that means the cannons dont get critted out as easily. Maybe some limiting vision in the cockpit. Its the best hands down out there. Period. The closest thing to pay to win in this game to date.
It shifted the balance soooo far to one side. How can it be balanced?

[XtremWarrior]

Kaveli, on 23 August 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

You quoted me but didn't read what I wrote. You're only basing a Mech as op on damage alone. The kdk3 runs like 2-3 common builds. It can be killed, it can be flanked, it can be easily beaten. If you literally are going to go off of damage alone which in my kdk3 people usually just stand in front and don't react then guess what? They get hosed just like a Dire.

It is faster than the dire, because you can put a bigger engine
It turns faster because it has a bigger engine.
It has higher mounts.
The dire can still do the same loadouts.

If we're talking strictly damage potential it's at the top of the food chain.

But can we seriously just get over it? I don't want to play a perfectly balanced game and kdk3 is strong but not unbeatable.

Yes we're talking damage, what else do you do in MWO? Are you trying to say that's KDK are balanced because they're bad at Narcing or Taging?

Let's take an exemple: having a weapon in a Shooter (say, CS:GO) with max damage ammo (insta-kill whenever you're hit), with a load of 100 ammo, firing at a machine-gun rate, able to pass through walls.
Is the user unbeatable?
By your own logic, no, not at all since one regular sniper shot in his head would kill him, the guy can be flanked etc. So that would be perfectly normal to have such a weapon, right? No prob...

Nobody says it's unbeatable, but it's clearly too strong. Don't wanna have balance? Just take a MystLynx or Victor and play your Hardmode, but for most player, balance is something important, if not critical.

If you can't see why, please take time and think.

Edited by XtremWarrior, 24 August 2016 - 01:27 AM.