92 replies to this topic

[Robot Kenshiro]

Kodiaks arent god mode, they still get killed. Leader board stats are just that, stats. If the Kodiak had the ability to face front 2 alphas from a Black knight or Ebon or even a Hopper and not get cored...then its god mode. Currently, its ppl who know how to play them, and how to pilot them well. I assure you a Kodiak in the open is just as dead as an Atlas in the open. Please...add more salt for PGI...Please keep asking for more mechs...please waste more time on balancing game problems.... many ppl have stated this game is so stale due to the fact ppl are crying about this sort of stuff. How bout we all cry about MORE GAME MODES THAT ARENT REWORKS OF WHAT WE HAVE NOW....PLEASE......

MAPS and MECHS are NOT CONTENT. And crying over a mech that is good, has no quirks whats so ever is fruitless. UAC10 ghost heat has been added already, firing more then 2 spikes like crazy, double tapping even more so, firing all 4 shuts you down like you fired off 2 UAC20s.

[Reza Malin]

Kaveli, on 23 August 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

Leaderboards are based on match score. They match score is based on damage, participation, mechs and components destroyed. If the Kdk3 dominates because it has a pure Dakka design that boats heat efficient, high damage, flexible range, and strategically positioned hard points, then that's just a byproduct of the mechs design. It can be just as easily taken out by focus fire, light swarm and poor positioning. It's a mech that will have a higher potential than many mechs to score higher based on the grading system within the game but that doesn't mean it's inherently OP unless we only care about match score.
Based on my experience match score doesn't guarantee victory, and damage potential doesn't mean it will beat every mech it crosses. If left unchecked, the kdk3 can be one of the most deadly mechs on the field and until people make that connection then people will continue to lose to them.

I'm so sick of these rhetoric BS comments defending Kodiak 3, when it has clearly landslided through an event aimed at every class.

You also manage to sound like you have never played a game of MechWarrior without being in a 12 man VOIP setup with lifelong best friends.

The fact is, you said "If left unchecked, the kdk3 can be one of the most deadly mechs on the field and until people make that connection then people will continue to lose to them."

Yep sounds great bro, the execution though, i would like to hear more about that.

So half the team goes looking for one or more KDK-3 while the other 9 or 10 mechs just go to town right?
When the pug game starts and people head off in a wave, how exactly do you marshal that into "Comrades, there are 3 x KDK3's over there, lets all go there now and focus them down, amirite? No, ignore that other lance that is shooting you, we have to focus the overpowered mechs down first, and trade that for damage from the other 9 enemy, because, logic."

Complete rubbish. In the solo queue, the KDK3 is ridiculously overpowered.

[kesmai]

The problem is called:
Unlimited modification of hard points. There is no restriction on weight and size outside of tonnage and crits.
The same goes with every other top mech, all of them are top because of this.
The kdk3 just happens to have 4 of the best hard point locations in the game too. Lucky mech it is.

[XtremWarrior]

DaZur, on 23 August 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

The problem with striving for equity across all mech and chassis you eventually reach a point of "beige" I.e all mechs and chassis begin to play / feel the same.

I understand and appreciate why we'd want this but at the same Token, I'm one of those players that intentionally play those challenging mechs on purpose.

Wow that' weird. Balance = Same?
So you never play Starcraft or a strategy game with diiferent armies, for exemple? Nor played any DOTA/LOL/HotS? Nor any RPG with different classes?

Cuz those games are balanced (or rather close), and no, TeamFortress/Overwatch characters don't feel or play the same, neither do the DOTA2/LoL heroes, SC2 races don't play as each other, you get the point.

So no, balance is very different than equal.
But yeah you're THE MAN, you're strong, you play any Mech, any time and you beat every other Mechs. Your Victor vs KDK, of course you win! And we should all praise you and try to be like you because screw balance, the problem is the players not being good enough, right?


(sorry if i get carried away a bit, but this kind of attitude makes me angry... )

Edited by XtremWarrior, 24 August 2016 - 01:51 AM.

[Reza Malin]

Robot Kenshiro, on 24 August 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

Kodiaks arent god mode, they still get killed. Leader board stats are just that, stats. If the Kodiak had the ability to face front 2 alphas from a Black knight or Ebon or even a Hopper and not get cored...then its god mode. Currently, its ppl who know how to play them, and how to pilot them well. I assure you a Kodiak in the open is just as dead as an Atlas in the open. Please...add more salt for PGI...Please keep asking for more mechs...please waste more time on balancing game problems.... many ppl have stated this game is so stale due to the fact ppl are crying about this sort of stuff. How bout we all cry about MORE GAME MODES THAT ARENT REWORKS OF WHAT WE HAVE NOW....PLEASE......

MAPS and MECHS are NOT CONTENT. And crying over a mech that is good, has no quirks whats so ever is fruitless. UAC10 ghost heat has been added already, firing more then 2 spikes like crazy, double tapping even more so, firing all 4 shuts you down like you fired off 2 UAC20s.

Newsflash: 2 UAC10 and 2 UAC5 works just as well if not better.

Please comment with more vague rhetoric about how a KDK3 should be easy to kill, yet consistently isn't. Hence, the leaderboard event.

Its not about how easy they are to kill, they are just mechs. its about the amount of damage they can consistently manage to do given their unique combination of speed, hardpoints, armour and firepower, all in one package.

[DrxAbstract]

Robot Kenshiro, on 24 August 2016 - 01:35 AM, said:

Kodiaks arent god mode, they still get killed. Leader board stats are just that, stats. If the Kodiak had the ability to face front 2 alphas from a Black knight or Ebon or even a Hopper and not get cored...then its god mode. Currently, its ppl who know how to play them, and how to pilot them well.

So... The BK I run has a 52 Alpha (Which is actually higher than the widely used BK build) which makes 2 shots equal 104 Damage, and no self respecting Assault pilot has less than 110 Front CT Armor. By your reasoning, the KDK is God Mode... Just saying.

Now nobody is saying KDKs cant be killed, certainly not. What they're saying is the collective advantages it has lends to a level of performance potential no other Mech comes close to. The average player can decimate with one quite handily, while an excellent pilot can melt faces with one hand and eat delicious cookies with the other... That's just not kosher.

It can certainly do without the Bonus Structure it has, especially in the CT, considering it can spread damage better than an Atlas.

[MeanMachinE]

1 vs 1 which one would win, locust (or ach, oxide..) or kdk-3? Both have a chance, but I would put my money on the locust. So, should we nerf the locust now? Just saying...

[DrxAbstract]

MeanMachinE, on 24 August 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

1 vs 1 which one would win, locust (or ach, oxide..) or kdk-3? Both have a chance, but I would put my money on the locust. So, should we nerf the locust now? Just saying...

That's just...

[Aetes Nakatomi]

I remember Imperius and most others on the Forums telling me how the KDK was gonna be a scrub mech and I was some kind of uber clown for requesting it...

That aside, I think they need to drop the KDK quirks down to 0 on most variants just to stop the whining. My guess is that they are waiting for ED to come in so they only need to re-quirk once.

[Kirkland Langue]

Aetes Nakatomi, on 24 August 2016 - 04:16 AM, said:

That aside, I think they need to drop the KDK quirks down to 0 on most variants just to stop the whining. My guess is that they are waiting for ED to come in so they only need to re-quirk once people to stop buying KDK packs so they can maximize their bottom line on the KDK before giving it the axe.

FTFY

[DaZur]

XtremWarrior, on 24 August 2016 - 01:45 AM, said:

Wow that' weird. Balance = Same?
So you never play Starcraft or a strategy game with diiferent armies, for exemple? Nor played any DOTA/LOL/HotS? Nor any RPG with different classes?

Cuz those games are balanced (or rather close), and no, TeamFortress/Overwatch characters don't feel or play the same, neither do the DOTA2/LoL heroes, SC2 races don't play as each other, you get the point.

So no, balance is very different than equal.
But yeah you're THE MAN, you're strong, you play any Mech, any time and you beat every other Mechs. Your Victor vs KDK, of course you win! And we should all praise you and try to be like you because screw balance, the problem is the players not being good enough, right?


(sorry if i get carried away a bit, but this kind of attitude makes me angry... )

No offense but if you think your comparisons are at all balanced, I don't know what to tell you....

Each one of those examples have their own respective meta characters / units that are the "go to" apex example.

Understand there's a big difference between balance and equity....

You can take the exact same mech with exact same weapons and by simply placing a single hardpoint in a different place, create a mech that is superior to its counterpoint. In theory you'd consider these mechs balanced as their respectfully the same mech. Reality is they're not equal.

Edited by DaZur, 24 August 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[Baulven]

I needed to say thank you. The thread specifically talks about the kdk3. A lot of threads complain about the Kodiak in general when the other variants are not outliers. Thank you for making that distinction.

[Kaveli]

XtremWarrior, on 24 August 2016 - 01:24 AM, said:

Yes we're talking damage, what else do you do in MWO? Are you trying to say that's KDK are balanced because they're bad at Narcing or Taging?

Let's take an exemple: having a weapon in a Shooter (say, CS:GO) with max damage ammo (insta-kill whenever you're hit), with a load of 100 ammo, firing at a machine-gun rate, able to pass through walls.
Is the user unbeatable?
By your own logic, no, not at all since one regular sniper shot in his head would kill him, the guy can be flanked etc. So that would be perfectly normal to have such a weapon, right? No prob...

Nobody says it's unbeatable, but it's clearly too strong. Don't wanna have balance? Just take a MystLynx or Victor and play your Hardmode, but for most player, balance is something important, if not critical.

If you can't see why, please take time and think.

I think your hyperbole is amusing considering the Kdk3 is nothing like that. The Dire Wolf does that exact same thing with the exact same load outs but we're only talking about the KDK 3. The mounts are higher and it moves faster but at it's core it's doing the same exact thing. I don't play CS Go but I played CS years ago, and yes I remember the auto sniper. It was almost always a one shot and you could shoot multiple times. People complained and complained but it stayed there as a powerful weapon.

Balance =/= all mech created equal. Balance is there is "some" counter to every mech design. Some designs will be innately weaker and some stronger but looking at a newer, popular, assault mech and saying "look everyone is killing it. It must be OP" is short sighted. I haven't had a SINGLE GAME where I saw the score board and thought to myself "That Kodiak 3 on the other side ruined our winning game"

A lot of the people in hear crying about the Kodiak are the same people that'll be here next month or the month after crying foal about the next mech they all deem OP. Get over it and play the game. When you see a KDK 3 on the other side, single it out and focus fire. Just like you would a Dire Wolf....

[xWiredx]

As a former top 50-er in KDK-3 during the original event, I did find it a little too easy and would be in favor of a small (5-7.5%) negative heat quirk for UAC10s on the KDK-3. Alternatively, maybe a 5-7.5% negative cooldown quirk.

Honestly, anything more than that would be detrimental because we shouldn't be forcefully gimping things just based on how well top-tier players do in it. I have seen an awful lot of KDK pilots lately that aren't breaking 500 dmg in a match, which to me seems pretty silly. Especially when I was averaging 1k-1.2k per match when the excessive ghost heat bug was still around.

Besides, much like the Atlases and then Dire Wolfs, Kodiaks fall very quickly when exposed as long as teams focus their targets. In higher-tier play, and especially in group queue, this is common. This outcry of OPness happened when the UAC5 DWF became the 'meta' and everybody survived. I'm sure everybody will continue to survive through the KDK meta.

[DrxAbstract]

Kaveli, on 24 August 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

I think your hyperbole is amusing considering the Kdk3 is nothing like that. The Dire Wolf does that exact same thing with the exact same load outs but we're only talking about the KDK 3. The mounts are higher and it moves faster but at it's core it's doing the same exact thing. I don't play CS Go but I played CS years ago, and yes I remember the auto sniper. It was almost always a one shot and you could shoot multiple times. People complained and complained but it stayed there as a powerful weapon.

Balance =/= all mech created equal. Balance is there is "some" counter to every mech design. Some designs will be innately weaker and some stronger but looking at a newer, popular, assault mech and saying "look everyone is killing it. It must be OP" is short sighted. I haven't had a SINGLE GAME where I saw the score board and thought to myself "That Kodiak 3 on the other side ruined our winning game"

A lot of the people in hear crying about the Kodiak are the same people that'll be here next month or the month after crying foal about the next mech they all deem OP. Get over it and play the game. When you see a KDK 3 on the other side, single it out and focus fire. Just like you would a Dire Wolf....

So what's the balancing factor for KDK-3... Focus Fire? That's a cop out and you know it. The chassis needs to be balanced by its own detractors while strong in specific, relevant roles before, and in order to, be balanced against the open spectrum of the game in its entirety... Currently it has none aside from those inherent to being an Assault Mech (Large and Slow) and even that's heavily mitigated relative to other Assaults.

The Dire is slow and ponderous, even among Assaults - The KDK is Muhammad Ali by comparison. The Dire must expose 40% of itself over a hilltop to use its weapons versus the 10-12% of a KDK-3. The KDK in general can spread damage exceptionally well with its geometry, and has the torso twist speed to make it happen whereas even if the Dire did have the geometry to do it, it doesnt have the twist speed to pull it off. The KDK has Full Customization, the Dire does not.

Focusing a Dire is childs play by comparison; They're too slow to escape, cant roll off the damage and it's much easier to damage specific points of their geometry, especially the sides.

There's no valid justification for the KDK, especially the KDK-3 to exist as it currently does... None. It's too powerful relative to its weight class, its own variants and in general. Bringing other Assaults up to its level presents a massive power imbalance debacle between Assaults and the other 3 weight classes, and increasing all weight classes to the respective and relative power of a KDK-3 presents a egregious TTK power creep issue...

The only viable option is to reduce the effectiveness of KDK's in general slightly and hit the KDK-3 specifically with a Paul Bunyan-sized nerf bat... Removing their structure quirks is a start. Energy Draw may solve the rest of it, we'll have to wait and see.

[XtremWarrior]

Kaveli, on 24 August 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

I think your hyperbole is amusing considering the Kdk3 is nothing like that. The Dire Wolf does that exact same thing with the exact same load outs but we're only talking about the KDK 3. The mounts are higher and it moves faster but at it's core it's doing the same exact thing. I don't play CS Go but I played CS years ago, and yes I remember the auto sniper. It was almost always a one shot and you could shoot multiple times. People complained and complained but it stayed there as a powerful weapon.

Balance =/= all mech created equal. Balance is there is "some" counter to every mech design. Some designs will be innately weaker and some stronger but looking at a newer, popular, assault mech and saying "look everyone is killing it. It must be OP" is short sighted. I haven't had a SINGLE GAME where I saw the score board and thought to myself "That Kodiak 3 on the other side ruined our winning game"

A lot of the people in hear crying about the Kodiak are the same people that'll be here next month or the month after crying foal about the next mech they all deem OP. Get over it and play the game. When you see a KDK 3 on the other side, single it out and focus fire. Just like you would a Dire Wolf....

The hyperbole is here to show the short-mindedness of your answer.
But i think you know that and just keep saying the same things because you have no argument apart from "DireWolf is also a 100T people used to complain about".

Mind you, i had no grief against Kodiaks (even though the 1st one i saw on a battlefield cored my yellow armored Zeus CT in less than 2 sec - true story) until the Assault leaderboards.
(just in case, i was on vacation and didn't play the event so i got no personal involvement here)
The discrepancy between KDK and BMR (2nd) top scores is too big to be ignored.
As you said yourself: DW was considered OP upon release (and still remains in a sweet spot right now) and KDK scores are 20% higher... And that's still not enough?
And all of this has been confirmed by a 2nd tournament! What proof do you need?

Of course the Mech is not an insta-win, but if you have the choice, there is no reason right now to take any other assault over the KDK-3 because it has no trade-off. Still not a problem for you?
Then no need to discuss, enjoy your KDKs.

Edited by XtremWarrior, 24 August 2016 - 08:32 AM.

[Ghogiel]

DjPush, on 23 August 2016 - 10:09 AM, said:

Who remebers when video games where so hard that you and your friends would stay up all night, taking turns trying to beat levels or bosses? Grow a pair and some facial hair.

Some irony in that most probably didn't have any pubes when they were playing those games.

[Scout Derek]

Ghogiel, on 24 August 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

Some irony in that most probably didn't have any pubes when they were playing those games.

Doom made sure to give you some with "Hurt me Plenty" difficulty.

[DrxAbstract]

Scout Derek, on 24 August 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

Doom made sure to give you some with "Hurt me Plenty" difficulty.

Nightmare made sure you lost them when you ran out of hair to pull on your head.

[XtremWarrior]

DaZur, on 24 August 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

No offense but if you think your comparisons are at all balanced, I don't know what to tell you....

Each one of those examples have their own respective meta characters / units that are the "go to" apex example.

Understand there's a big difference between balance and equity....

You can take the exact same mech with exact same weapons and by simply placing a single hardpoint in a different place, create a mech that is superior to its counterpoint. In theory you'd consider these mechs balanced as their respectfully the same mech. Reality is they're not equal.

Yes, and? No races in SC2 will win more often than an other (even with different units, which seems to give you troubles no one else understand): that's called balance.

Who's talking about equality (or equity lol)? Balance means: in this or that situation, THIS Mech will be better and THAT Mech worse, but for other things, THAT Mech will be better and THIS Mech worse; which means that, in general, they're the same because they both have downsides. Even if one of the two Mechs is better in 80% situations and the other in only 20%, it could still be balanced if the 1st one has a small bonus pretty often, and the other a really big one on a very few occasions.
It's all about average.

What's the downside of KDK, please? His fast engine? His high mounted hardpoints? The 50 Tons you can put in weapons loadout? Please tell me, cuz i really have no clue.

But honestly, your answer makes me wonder if you do understand the meaning of balance in video-games at all.

"No offense but if you think your comparisons are at all balanced, I don't know what to tell you". <= you're funny!

Edited by XtremWarrior, 24 August 2016 - 08:56 AM.