100 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alienized, on 24 August 2016 - 01:20 PM, said:

if a mech can break 1k damage it means its good enough to make it work.

This is just false, I have seen McGral or Yeonne break 1k in terrible mechs, that does not mean they are good.

Consistency matters far more in the grading the performance of a mech than outlier matches where you happen to get enough spuds to do well.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 August 2016 - 01:25 PM.

[Alienized]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 August 2016 - 01:24 PM, said:

This is just false, I have seen McGral or Yeonne break 1k in terrible mechs, that does not mean they are good.

Consistency matters far more in the grading the performance of a mech than outlier matches where you happen to get enough spuds to do well.

sorry, i do 1k damage games with terrible mechs myself. its not THAT hard but it needs work and propably counts as gitgud.
just had a 1k+ damage battle myself today with a brawlvictor but i wouldnt say its an awesome mech.
its a good mech after all.

the problem is that we call a mech good only if its easy to play which is false imho. many of the *outlier* mechs can be played very well with just little work with it BUT too many dont even consider to PLAY them because everyone calls them bad.

if we can get away from that thinking to call everything bad that doesnt work instantly in every situation there will be more different mechs on the field than we have currently.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alienized, on 24 August 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

its a good mech after all.

No, it's terrible, easily one of the worst assaults in the game.

Alienized, on 24 August 2016 - 01:37 PM, said:

the problem is that we call a mech good only if its easy to play which is false imho.

No, it has to do with under-performing compared to other mechs. The Mauler wasn't easy to play at first, but people figured it out and it became the best assault for a time, no one is doing that with mechs like the Victor or Zeus for a reason, they are inherently bad.

But, just to humor you a bit, let's say they are good in some special situation? That still makes them bad because you can't count on that special situation occurring every match, which means they have to be somewhat flexible and is partially why they aren't ever used.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 August 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[Alienized]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 August 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

No, it's terrible, easily one of the worst assaults in the game.


No, it has to do with under-performing compared to other mechs. The Mauler wasn't easy to play at first, but people figured it out and it became the best assault for a time, no one is doing that with mechs like the Victor or Zeus for a reason, they are inherently bad.

But, just to humor you a bit, let's say they are good in some special situation? That still makes them bad because you can't count on that special situation occurring every match, which means they have to be somewhat flexible and is partially why they aren't ever used.

underperforming... hmm... i guess you never played a fast mobile victor then. you would be surprised how well it does in a brawl even with multiple medium mechs. which is what i mentioned earlier.
people arent even trying such stuff because the mech itself is considered BAD.
all you need is a big XL, ac20, srm's and max jj's.

i tell you, the victor is not as bad as you actually think it is and yes, you need to brawl it which is hard on maps like alpine and grim plexus but brawling always been the black sheep of MWO somehow.
on maps like HPG, Canyon, mining collective, viridian bog, forest colony etc you have so many paths to go with that thing...

theres no special situation needed. you create them. thats a difference.
you think it cant tank? hell, the jj's and big engine make it an awesome infighter once you got the hang of it.

atlas brawlers could have so much fun with it since they know how to torso twist like crazy. key to everything.


now try that stuff and i'll give you a hint: damage is not the thing of a victor.
its to kill a enemy fast and quick stacking up KMDD's. not dmg.

Edited by Alienized, 24 August 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alienized, on 24 August 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

underperforming... hmm... i guess you never played a fast mobile victor then. you would be surprised how well it does in a brawl even with multiple medium mechs. which is what i mentioned earlier.

I have played that Victor, and I have played the Spirit Bear and Splatlas which are both much better brawlers because they both have better firepower AND are less squishy. Sure the Victor is lighter, but the Timby is also lighter and is still a better brawler. There is a reason people like Proton and Twinky will take a Splatlas or Spirit Bear over the Victor when asked to brawl in a comp match, because they are better mechs.

Alienized, on 24 August 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

now try that stuff and i'll give you a hint: damage is not the thing of a victor.
its to kill a enemy fast and quick stacking up KMDD's. not dmg.

That's kinda the point of all alpha oriented mechs (which both the Splatlas and Spirit Bear are) so I'm not sure why you think that somehow the Victor is different?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 August 2016 - 02:53 PM.

[Terrorsdawn]

Fix the hard points so you can use the higher mounts properly and it would be a sweet mech.

[Dee Eight]

I've had 1k damage games on three of the cyclops variants so far, still got three to go that I haven't even used yet.

[Alienized]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 August 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

I have played that Victor, and I have played the Spirit Bear and Splatlas which are both much better brawlers because they both have better firepower AND are less squishy. Sure the Victor is lighter, but the Timby is also lighter and is still a better brawler. There is a reason people like Proton and Twinky will take a Splatlas or Spirit Bear over the Victor when asked to brawl in a comp match, because they are better mechs.

i expected what you wrote in your answer. neither the atlas nor a spirit bear are as fast or jumpy and yes, it's the 4 jj's i want to highlight.
why? because the majority of people arent prepared for a assault jumping up behind or down to them.
spirit bears and atlai have a total different playstyle than a victor. the only thing they have in common is that they are brawlers and thats about it. you gotta think outside the standard playstyle alot and be more agressive if not totally going solo to enjoy the victor.
problem is, can you do that? in a gaming world where everything seems to be set in stone like nascaring all day i dont see many people do that. do you?

neither it is as squishy as you want it to have. it surely is vulnerable to PPFLD mechs but who isnt if its not a 100ton mech? everything else can be killed toe to toe, one vs one if its not one of the top guys. playing that victor thing excessively during the past months i can tell that a TBR is also very well beatable, not to notice that the timber is one of the best mechs overall in this game.
if you are that far to even think about comparing a victor to a timber..... lol. really.
besides, 5 tons dont do much of a difference with the lighter clantech and the obsessive power creep (hardpoint inflation....) the timbergod got.

im sure that they would pick atlas or spirit bears over a victor simply because of the 20 tons more lol but proton would rather pick a orion which he does. in fact, he plays alot of outlier mechs which i find amazing.
im not saying the victor is better than a atlas, which he isnt but why arent you comparing that have more similar tonnage?
like the orion? like a gargoyle? propably because you cant.

i also wont say that the victor is on the level of a cyclops because it never received so many hardpoints to work with.
each cyclops variant seem to be able to carry alot of same weapons. lots of srm's, ac's and lasers. all a boater literally needs.
dual gauss, dual ppc's.
hardpoints are ok, speed is ok.
definetly better than a highlander and a smaller silhouette than a mauler.
which means its definetly a good mech.


now, to end this whole thing, i tell you some really bad mechs.
trebuchet, vindicator, kit fox, dragon, commando, gargoyle, executioner (made obsolete by the spirit bears)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

i expected what you wrote in your answer. neither the atlas nor a spirit bear are as fast or jumpy and yes, it's the 4 jj's i want to highlight.
why? because the majority of people arent prepared for a assault jumping up behind or down to them.

You realize I could take the Timby then, and do the exact same thing except with more and better JJs? You can't just handwave its advantages away because it's Clan tech because the Atlas and Spirit Bear are near equals despite being different tech bases.

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

not to notice that the timber is one of the best mechs overall in this game.

It is a strong heavy, there is no doubt, but so are Warhammers.

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

obsessive power creep (hardpoint inflation....) the timbergod got.

I think you are confused, the Timber has NO hardpoint inflation, just like ALL of the other omnimechs....

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

im sure that they would pick atlas or spirit bears over a victor simply because of the 20 tons more lol but proton would rather pick a orion which he does. in fact, he plays alot of outlier mechs which i find amazing.

He plays them in PUGs, just like I play other mechs in PUGs (like my Vindi) but that DOES NOT mean he will take them in a competitive match. That said, with the Orion IIC getting structure buffs, you may see them in MRBC as brawlers.

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

im not saying the victor is better than a atlas, which he isnt but why arent you comparing that have more similar tonnage?
like the orion? like a gargoyle? propably because you cant.

Wrong, I'm comparing them to other assaults because comp hasn't been tonnage based since RHOD and MLMW, the current PGI world tourney and the only player run tournament left running, MRBC, are all class based which means you have to compare with those options. FW is tonnage based, sure, but FW is broken and bad, so you aren't going to get very far arguing that.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 August 2016 - 08:56 AM.

[Selous]

Cyclops watches in corner while Victor argues with Atlas & Spirit Bear.......

[Alienized]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

You realize I could take the Timby then, and do the exact same thing except with more and better JJs? You can't just handwave its advantages away because it's Clan tech because the Atlas and Spirit Bear are near equals despite being different tech bases.


It is a strong heavy, there is no doubt, but so are Warhammers.


I think you are confused, the Timber has NO hardpoint inflation, just like ALL of the other omnimechs....


He plays them in PUGs, just like I play other mechs in PUGs (like my Vindi) but that DOES NOT mean he will take them in a competitive match. That said, with the Orion IIC getting structure buffs, you may see them in MRBC as brawlers.


Wrong, I'm comparing them to other assaults because comp hasn't been tonnage based since RHOD and MLMW, the current PGI world tourney and the only player run tournament left running, MRBC, are all class based which means you have to compare with those options. FW is tonnage based, sure, but FW is broken and bad, so you aren't going to get very far arguing that.

and there you go. you are bringing the COMP argument. why.. WHY.... does every mech need to be COMPETITIVE to be counted as something simple as *good*. they only take THE BEST mechs. not GOOD ones.
are you telling me that something GOOD equals THE BEST? ....

the only thing the timber does better in a brawl than a victor is not dying to side torso loss. that said, a timber cant torso twist as good as a victor. and now ffs stop comparing one of the best mechs to others, especially if they are IS mechs that desperatly REQUIRE XL engines to work.
if a whammy wants to be up par with a timber it needs XL too. a black knight and marauder once been on timberwolf level but guess what, they got nerfed. so no, as long as the mech dies instantly with side torso loss it cant be as good as a timberwolf.

but thats just totally missing the point of the whole debate we have since we arent talking about the top MWO mechs here and the cyclops wont be up there either.

i've been talking about the pug's, the FW's and the group queues. not the comp stuff. if you only take that you can forget 70% of the mechs we have but thats BULLSH**T.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Selous, on 25 August 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Cyclops watches in corner while Victor argues with Atlas & Spirit Bear.......

Cyclops is too busy actually shooting things, honestly after playing it a bit, it isn't quite as good as a Mauler for a dakka, but everything else I feel it does just as well if not better because it has a bit better hitboxes and a higher engine cap. If it could run 5 AC5, I would be set. It is definitely above average for an assault given that.

Side note: I'm really liking the look of this mech, really wasn't expecting to like it that much.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 August 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

and there you go. you are bringing the COMP argument. why.. WHY.... does every mech need to be COMPETITIVE to be counted as something simple as *good*. they only take THE BEST mechs. not GOOD ones.

MRBC doesn't allow for only the best (depending on how many mechs are meta). Ironically you bringing this up reminded me teams were forced to take the Victor for 1 of the 5 drops per match. Even when running brawl decs, it was almost always long range oriented rather than brawl oriented because it is stupidly squishy in a brawl, it makes no sense to put it in that sort of situation where it can easily get blindsided. The best build for it was either the 3 ERLL-Gauss or 2 PPC/2 AC5 builds because it allowed it to stay a safe distance away for splat mechs, laser vomit knights, or allowed it to poke dakka hammers.

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

if a whammy wants to be up par with a timber it needs XL too. a black knight and marauder once been on timberwolf level but guess what, they got nerfed. so no, as long as the mech dies instantly with side torso loss it cant be as good as a timberwolf.

Quite the assumption, but regardless of what you think, the Warhammer is if not the best heavy, the second best heavy.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 August 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 August 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Cyclops is too busy actually shooting things, honestly after playing it a bit, it isn't quite as good as a Mauler for a dakka, but everything else I feel it does just as well if not better because it has a bit better hitboxes and a higher engine cap. If it could run 5 AC5, I would be set.

Side note: I'm really liking the look of this mech, really wasn't expecting to like it that much.

I've noticed the hitboxes seem much better than I was worried they would be given the similarity to the Archer geometry. Yeah the dakka isn't as good, but you can do the Dakkahammer build but be faster and have more armor with an XL 380.

Also tried AC20 and 3 SRM6 w/Artemis which seems like a solid brawler, doesn't hit as hard as the AS7-S but it is faster.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Also tried AC20 and 3 SRM6 w/Artemis which seems like a solid brawler, doesn't hit as hard as the AS7-S but it is faster.

Try a 6 ASRM6 with a 400 XL >_>

[Bishop Steiner]

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

and there you go. you are bringing the COMP argument. why.. WHY.... does every mech need to be COMPETITIVE to be counted as something simple as *good*. they only take THE BEST mechs. not GOOD ones.
are you telling me that something GOOD equals THE BEST? ....

because you don't separate the wheat and the chaff by what you can accomplish against potatoes?

I have little use or patience for the Epeen crowd, but for distilling what stacks up against what, that's where one looks. Yes, many of the players are really just glorified twitchers, but you also have those who do set the trends and meta there, and they do so by knowing not just the Black and White of the game, but the shades of grey in between.

Gas Guzzler, on 25 August 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

I've noticed the hitboxes seem much better than I was worried they would be given the similarity to the Archer geometry. Yeah the dakka isn't as good, but you can do the Dakkahammer build but be faster and have more armor with an XL 380.

Also tried AC20 and 3 SRM6 w/Artemis which seems like a solid brawler, doesn't hit as hard as the AS7-S but it is faster.

I'm actually...TBH..shocked by the hit boxes, and wondering if they are accurate to the model, TBH because visually there seems to be no explanation for how solid it is, as large as it is, and yet I am totally comfortable running an XL in mine.

Hardpoint location is still uninspiring, but the dang thin IS mobile and tanky.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

and there you go. you are bringing the COMP argument. why.. WHY.... does every mech need to be COMPETITIVE to be counted as something simple as *good*. they only take THE BEST mechs. not GOOD ones.
are you telling me that something GOOD equals THE BEST? ....

the only thing the timber does better in a brawl than a victor is not dying to side torso loss. that said, a timber cant torso twist as good as a victor. and now ffs stop comparing one of the best mechs to others, especially if they are IS mechs that desperatly REQUIRE XL engines to work.
if a whammy wants to be up par with a timber it needs XL too. a black knight and marauder once been on timberwolf level but guess what, they got nerfed. so no, as long as the mech dies instantly with side torso loss it cant be as good as a timberwolf.

but thats just totally missing the point of the whole debate we have since we arent talking about the top MWO mechs here and the cyclops wont be up there either.

i've been talking about the pug's, the FW's and the group queues. not the comp stuff. if you only take that you can forget 70% of the mechs we have but thats BULLSH**T.

The Victor is terrible, it is outclassed by other Assaults, it is outclassed by a number of heavies just under its tonnage...there is pretty much no sane/logical reason to take one.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 August 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Try a 6 ASRM6 with a 400 XL >_>

enjoy that now before the PTS2 SRM spread changes take effect. My poor ON1-VA is already dreading seeing the effect on it's SRM4 stinkfists. (Would not matter much if the ON1 could realistically XL, but with an STD, tonnage is at a premium)

been toying with a 7xSRM4 version, to skip the Artemis and get the higher RoF. But haven't decided on Mlasers in the arms to deal with UAVs, or Flamers to stunlock opponents a la the Spirit Bear. From your perspective, what would you recommend?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 August 2016 - 09:39 AM.

[Davers]

Alienized, on 25 August 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

and there you go. you are bringing the COMP argument. why.. WHY.... does every mech need to be COMPETITIVE to be counted as something simple as *good*. they only take THE BEST mechs. not GOOD ones.
are you telling me that something GOOD equals THE BEST? ....

the only thing the timber does better in a brawl than a victor is not dying to side torso loss. that said, a timber cant torso twist as good as a victor. and now ffs stop comparing one of the best mechs to others, especially if they are IS mechs that desperatly REQUIRE XL engines to work.
if a whammy wants to be up par with a timber it needs XL too. a black knight and marauder once been on timberwolf level but guess what, they got nerfed. so no, as long as the mech dies instantly with side torso loss it cant be as good as a timberwolf.

but thats just totally missing the point of the whole debate we have since we arent talking about the top MWO mechs here and the cyclops wont be up there either.

i've been talking about the pug's, the FW's and the group queues. not the comp stuff. if you only take that you can forget 70% of the mechs we have but thats BULLSH**T.

Because the best mechs totally outclass the "good" mechs? For every role you want to do there is usually 1-2 mechs that do it noticeably better than the rest. With unlimited ability to choose your mech, why wouldn't you take the best? A better question might be, why aren't the players demanding a niche for every mech?

[Bishop Steiner]

Oderint dum Metuant, on 25 August 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

The Victor is terrible, it is outclassed by other Assaults, it is outclassed by a number of heavies just under its tonnage...there is pretty much no sane/logical reason to take one.

I recently ran the Victor as part of the "What Mech Challenge". As long as I played against potatoes, it did OK. One whiff of FF from competent players? And it was missing an ST.

This makes me sad, as before the JJs nerfs the VTR WAS my chassis of choice with nearly 1000 matches in it.

It's funyn he points to the JJs as something special...despite the fact the JJs pretty well suck on the VTR. You aren't surprising anyone above tier 4 or so with having JJs on an Assault Mech. Especially as painfully slow as those work.

Davers, on 25 August 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

Because the best mechs totally outclass the "good" mechs? For every role you want to do there is usually 1-2 mechs that do it noticeably better than the rest. With unlimited ability to choose your mech, why wouldn't you take the best? A better question might be, why aren't the players demanding a niche for every mech?

I believe the Potato Farmers Guild of Germany is putting such a resolution before the EU as we speak.