303 replies to this topic

[Aramuside]

Quaamik, on 28 August 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

Seriously???


AC/10

Damage 10 - Heat 3 - Cool down 2.5 Range 450 / max range 900 – speed 950

New energy draw changes:

• Energy Consumption increased to 12 Energy Total (from 10)





PPC

Damage 10 - Heat 9.5 - Cool down 4 Range 540 / max range 1080 – speed 1200

Minimum range 90 m

New energy draw changes:

• Energy Consumption increased to 12 Energy total (from 10)

• Cool down Duration increased to 5.25s (from 4.6s)

• Heat Generation increased to 10 (from 9.5)



ER PPC

Damage 10 - Heat 14 - Cool down 4 Range 810 / max range 1620 – speed 1300

New Energy Draw Changes:

* Energy Consumption increased to 12 (from 10)

• Cool down Duration increased to 5.25s (from 4.6s)

• Heat Generation increased to 15 (from 14)





ER PPC

Damage 10+2.5+2.5 - Heat 14 - Cool down 4 Range 810 / max range 1620 – speed 1300

New Energy Draw Changes:

• Energy Consumption increased to 15 (from 13.5)

• Cool down Duration increased to 5.25s (from 4.6s)

• Heat Generation increased to 15 (from 14)





The AC10 and the PPC both deliver 10 pinpoint damage. Ideal and max ranges are close, with a slight advantage to PPC. The PPC however has a 90 meter dead zone which compensates for the 90 meter longer ideal range. Velocity is a advantage to the PPC, making it easier to hit with at longer ranges. Energy consumption is the same for both under the new system (works for balance).

The AC10 is 12 ton and 7 slots, vs the PPCs 7 tons and 3 slots. Add 2 tons of ammo for the AC, and you have 14 tons / 9 slots. Heat is much higher on the PPC, making Heat Sinks as necessary as ammo. So add 2 Double Heat Sinks to the PPC and you get 9 tons / 9 slots. So a 5 ton advantage to the PPC, but a 7 point advantage in heat o the AC10. Seems like a fairly balanced tradeoff.



But an AC10 gets a 2.5 second cool down and a PPC has a 5.25 second cool down?



Absolutely breaks the balance there.


ER PPCs, and C-ERPPCs, have added range to compensate. You can somewhat justify the longer cool down pointing at their much greater range. But the PPC matches up so closely in all its stats to the AC 10, yet the cool down makes it next to useless.

So a 5 ton advantage to the PPC, but a 7 point advantage in heat o the AC10. Seems like a fairly balanced tradeoff.

I presume you're not trying to troll but that's not even remotely balanced for a whole range of reasons. Just the basic FIVE ton difference is huge but that very size also factors into another big problem for AC10's. PPC's can be fit easily in one location for pinpoint boating as they take just 3 slots whereas the 7 slot AC10 you can see the problem easily. The heat sinks you can spread all over also raise your heat cap and can in fact act as excellent padding whereas the AC10 only has two targets - weapon or ammo explosion. Even if they crit the gun that just leaves you with a walking time bomb unable to get rid of its ammo. That's even before we get into the great snap fire capability of the PPC who can just fire on a half chance of a hit rather than needing to think about dwindling ammo.

Ironically I agree with you about them going too far but your example is poor.

[Quaamik]

I had to resort to using the testing grounds in the PTS.

No game would load. Not enough players guess.

[Quaamik]

Aramuside,

I'm not trolling.

As a direct comparison build, I've used a Catapult K2 with either 2 PPCs or 2 AC10s (I've also run it with 2 ERPPCs, but that's not a direct comparison).

Damage output is significantly lower with 2 PPCs due to the lower rate of fire. With the 2 AC10s I can brawl. With the PPCs I cannot. The ammo explosions are usually not an issue (either I run out of ammo, or I'm cored in about the same amount of time either way). While I have to watch ammo with the AC10s, I can fire them together getting a pinpoint 20 point hit and rarely worry about heat, and still fire them again in 2-1/2 seconds. Not so with the PPCs. Not having to be concerned with ammo for the PPCs only really benefits in the opening shots at long range or if you can manage to stay longer ranges (550-800 m). Other than scenarios like that (mainly Alpine or Polar), the AC10 build is considerably better.

Now changing over to the ERPPCs on that same mech and they are noticeably better. But that's because they trade the brawling ability for much longer range.

[Blaze32]

Wintersdark, on 23 August 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

The 1-heat weapon creates 1 heat. It consumes a lot of ENERGY - which (news flash!) the Gauss Rifle should, as it's a very high powered (electrically speaking) weapon. If you have one Gauss, and fire it alone, then other stuff, you don't generate any heat. If you have dual gauss, then yeah, you generate some heat due to the overdraw, but it's still onto 10 heat for 30 PPFLD near-hitscan damage at very long range.

Does the extra heat really matter? With twin guass snipers, they generate 12 heat per alpha, 10 new DHS reduce it by 1.5 heat every 10 seconds each (or 15 heat/10 seconds) so by the time it takes to re-fire you have only around 2 heat meaning you can fire around 19 alphas before shutdown from overheat .BUT if the DHS in the engine still count for 2.0 heat/10secs it means that if the double guass mech has a 250 or bigger engine they can reduce their heat by 20 every 10 seconds meaning that in 6.71 seconds they dissipate 13.42 heat before your guass rifles can fire again You could even add a 10% guass cooldown (bringing guass cooldown to around 6 seconds) and if your only carrying double guass, have a heat neutral build. my guass cat is happy because it is not effected by change!

Edited by Blaze32, 30 August 2016 - 04:47 PM.

[Quaamik]

There are a number of ways could see that would help make the PPCs more viable, and a fairer matchup. Any one of the following would work (assuming the latest power draw system):

- increase PPC range (not ERPPC) to 610 / max range to 1150
OR
- decrease PPC (again, NOT ERPPC) cool down to 4 seconds as it was before the last couple of changes.
OR
- decrease the heat on the PPC (again NOT the ERPPC) to 8

For those who think the sky would fall if any of these were implemented, tell me: how many PPCs do you actually see in game outside of low tier players? Doesn't that number say that the PPC is broken as a weapon?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Pihoqahiak, on 29 August 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

It is not our job to be their playtesters. We do not get paid by PGI, quite the opposite, many players pay PGI, and it's PGI's responsibility to produce a product worth players paying money for. I'm not sure where the mentality of so many white knights on this forum comes from where they feel such a need to try and work for PGI for free. There are a LOT of games out there competing for player's time and money. PGI is not going to win that competition by trying to get their player base to be their beta testers for free, while often running in-game events for rewards at the same time. Added to this problem is a poor track record of listening, and implementing change in response to player feedback over the course of many years. I'm not saying this to deter people from getting on the test server to check things out if they want to. I've gone on there to check things out. I'm saying this in response to some people on the forum that feel we, as players, are responsible for developing this game, instead of placing that responsibility where it belongs.....the developers at PGI that are being paid to do so.

wow your seriously way out there.

I don't know why any developer in your world would ever let players Beta test their game.

Weird how people who just have this anti-pgi bias say the most backwards things.

Let me get this strait, any company according to him is wrong for setting features up for testing, EVER. When the community wanted features to be tested before they came out.

Go make a thread telling players their wrong for being a part of any active test that PGI does.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 30 August 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Blaze32, on 30 August 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

Does the extra heat really matter? With twin guass snipers, they generate 12 heat per alpha, 10 new DHS reduce it by 1.5 heat every 10 seconds each (or 15 heat/10 seconds) so by the time it takes to re-fire you have only around 2 heat meaning you can fire around 19 alphas before shutdown from overheat .BUT if the DHS in the engine still count for 2.0 heat/10secs it means that if the double guass mech has a 250 or bigger engine they can reduce their heat by 20 every 10 seconds meaning that in 6.71 seconds they dissipate 13.42 heat before your guass rifles can fire again You could even add a 10% guass cooldown (bringing guass cooldown to around 6 seconds) and if your only carrying double guass, have a heat neutral build. my guass cat is happy because it is not effected by change!

... Yes, of course it matters.

Just a dual Gauss mech with no other weapons isn't a problem.

On the pts, that a tremendously low DPS build with VERY long cooldown (near 7s). It doesn't have charge, so it can snap shoot, but still up close its dead meat.

The heat matters however on heavier mechs. Pre Kodiak this was commonly seen with Direwolves and their 50(+splash) PPFLD dual Gauss + Dual ERPPC alphas. The extra draw ensures that firing that alpha will basically shut you down.

While there's lots of things where exceeding your energy pool by a bit is fine, that one in particular was an issue. Those 50pt PPFLD strikes simply wrecked mechs at range.

Likewise, my 122 pt alpha Direwolf (as did basically every good DWF build) leaned heavily on dual Gauss for a heavy ppfld component to their alpha damage and most importantly to get that damage at zero heat, allowing them to be fired alongside heavy lasers etc.

So, yes, that extra draw is very important to reign in dual gauss + other stuff builds without hurting plain dual Gauss builds.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

122 alpha dire? Most meta dires cop out at about 70 points.

I would love to see that build.

[Ulris Ventis]

So, um is there still any small chance to have:
1. More damage per shot.
2. Less armor/hitpoints per part/item.
3. Decreased Time to kill.
4. Get rid of pin point accuracy for laser weapons.

Rounds would be faster, more brutal, more enjoyable. With all the "energy pool" it all goes down to macro that shoots after those precise 0.5-0.7 secs to avoid "heat" in pairs ilke 2-3, 1-1 so on. I don't see how is this new system actually changing alpha striking.

[Jetfire]

Wintersdark, on 29 August 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

There's more players than there's ever going to be QA testers; and frankly we understand gameplay better.

It's NOT our job, but it's something people are willing to do, because otherwise we'll have no control/say in what actually ends up happening. Now, our opinions differ, but we can at least point out problems and offer our thoughts, so PGI can move forward with actual player feedback instead of just a couple of QA testers. The paid QA guys find the tedious bugs and show-stoppers (in an ideal world), and we playtest to see if the system really works from a gameplay perspective.

It's WAY better to have actual players test your system than just random dudes.


With that said, as we're NOT paid testers, it certainly behooves PGI to present some form of incentive to do it - for some, myself included, incentive is in wanting the game to be better. But for me to do that, I need players to play with and against. So if offering some incentive to them is going to get them onto the PTS, then that's what Russ should be doing.

I would definitely think that PGI should be happy to offer small MC rewards for playtesting, 10-50 a match or something up to a cap per day.

[MovinTarget]

Keshav Murali, on 31 August 2016 - 03:42 AM, said:

122 alpha dire? Most meta dires cop out at about 70 points.

I would love to see that build.

Sounds like you'll have to see it soon b/c it will be extinxt if this ED thing plays out...

[MovinTarget]

Ulris Ventis, on 31 August 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

So, um is there still any small chance to have:
1. More damage per shot.
2. Less armor/hitpoints per part/item.
3. Decreased Time to kill.
4. Get rid of pin point accuracy for laser weapons.

Rounds would be faster, more brutal, more enjoyable. With all the "energy pool" it all goes down to macro that shoots after those precise 0.5-0.7 secs to avoid "heat" in pairs ilke 2-3, 1-1 so on. I don't see how is this new system actually changing alpha striking.

It changes alpha striking in the sense that you will very seldom be in a position to do 50+ points of damage in a single volley. The means that unless the target is stock-still and out in the open, not torso twisting, and ignoring you, it will be much harder to land all that damage on one component because typically, you will have to split your arsenal into multiple firing groups.

Interesting point on the macros, but aside from that... it seems PGI is going the opposite route on most of your requests. They are trying to keep players alive longer, not decrease TTK. If you have a large staple of mechs and you like to play several of them, dying fast and moving on is fine. People with only a handful of mechs or are trying to level one particular one would appreciate not have as single mistake wast 10-15 minutes of their time.

Getting rid of pinpoint accuracy is not going to make the high skilled players too happy either. I'm all in favor of having accuracy, speed and agility all adversely affected by high heat (its Lore friendly and easier to implement than GH or ED), but to don't take pinpoint away completely...

Edited by MovinTarget, 31 August 2016 - 05:44 AM.

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

MovinTarget, on 31 August 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

Sounds like you'll have to see it soon b/c it will be extinxt if this ED thing plays out...

I'm just curious if it is viable or just a one-shot build.

Best I could do was http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4619952eb49102a or http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6ebb68d1f245375

Edited by Keshav Murali, 31 August 2016 - 06:50 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

Ulris Ventis, on 31 August 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

So, um is there still any small chance to have:
1. More damage per shot.
2. Less armor/hitpoints per part/item.
3. Decreased Time to kill.
4. Get rid of pin point accuracy for laser weapons.

Rounds would be faster, more brutal, more enjoyable. With all the "energy pool" it all goes down to macro that shoots after those precise 0.5-0.7 secs to avoid "heat" in pairs ilke 2-3, 1-1 so on. I don't see how is this new system actually changing alpha striking.

Seeing as that is the exact opposite of what we are asking for. No.

[Wintersdark]

Ulris Ventis, on 31 August 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

So, um is there still any small chance to have:
1. More damage per shot.
2. Less armor/hitpoints per part/item.
3. Decreased Time to kill.
4. Get rid of pin point accuracy for laser weapons.

Rounds would be faster, more brutal, more enjoyable. With all the "energy pool" it all goes down to macro that shoots after those precise 0.5-0.7 secs to avoid "heat" in pairs ilke 2-3, 1-1 so on. I don't see how is this new system actually changing alpha striking.

Well, no. Russ wants longer TTK, not shorter.

A macro that shoots precisely 0.5s helps with the current heat systems (re: Ghost Heat) but doesn't help with Energy draw, because ED doesn't allow you to avoid penalties with a simply half second delay (unless you're just firing 10 damage strikes, as you recoup 10 energy per half second) ... And even so, if you weren't precise with ED, you'd only take minor penalties vs. crushing penalties under ghost heat. GH is *much* more macro friendly than ED.

[Wintersdark]

Keshav Murali, on 31 August 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

I'm just curious if it is viable or just a one-shot build.

Best I could do was http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4619952eb49102a or http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6ebb68d1f245375

Pfft. See: DWF-PRIME

58 damage at long range via dual gauss+ERML, 122 damage at SRM range, able to cool rapidly while repeatedly firing 70pt strikes. (dual gauss+UAC20). Pretty sustained damage output with the dual gauss+UAC20+SRM6; you just gain heat slowly there.

Technically stronger with 2xSRM4 or 1xSRM6 (due to heat), but 2xSRM6 is moar funner for "Oh, high there Mr. Atlas; I'm sorry, but you're in my way, so I'm going to make you... Go away. Right now."

ED utterly destroys this though.

You theoretically need to run 4 weapon groups, but in practice you can just run three (for those that have trouble with 4 for some reason) by grouping the UAC+SRM's, but that rules out firing the UAC at >SRM ranges. I don't have any trouble with 4 groups however.

Edited by Wintersdark, 31 August 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Dat Dire...

[LordLosh]

yeah that's a pretty sick build man. Some peoples children make me mad and then some peoples children make me really happy, like who ever invented this wrecking ball.

[Wintersdark]

LordLosh, on 31 August 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

yeah that's a pretty sick build man. Some peoples children make me mad and then some peoples children make me really happy, like who ever invented this wrecking ball.

Pariah Devalis. It's the only build I've ever taken whole cloth immediately and then basically never changed (other than sometimes dropping to 2xSRM4 instead of 2xSRM6, as it buys you another DHS). In closed quarters where people can't get around you, it's simply wins. There's literally nothing that can stand up to or match that firepower, you don't need to (and shouldn't) attempt to roll damage or anything, you just push right through whatever is in front of you.

Back in the old Forest Colony days, tunnel pushes with that were absolutely hilarious. You could simply face tank and walk through multiple mechs. And unlike most heavy CQB mechs, Dual Gauss+4ERML is a very respectable mid to long range loadout. It's still hilarious in similar places, like battles underneath the HPG there, on on Mining Colony where it's trivial to get nice and close with lots of cover.

And while people complain about lights, you've got so much firepower, and between spread/beam/burst, it's actually hard to not one-shot them. You don't try to leg them or silly stuff like that, you just point at them and mash weapon groups and they... go away.


It's a monster, if - as I said - you don't have trouble managing 4 weapon groups.

But while I'm sad that ED utterly ruins it, I'm also happy that ED utterly ruins it. Being able to push 98 pinpoint + 24 spread damage in a second is really not good for the game, IMHO.

[Deathlike]

PTS 3rd version is up, despite no announcements here.

http://mwomercs.com/...gy-draw-sept-1/