15 replies to this topic

[jweltsch]

In the current pts build im not seeing a ton of reasons to take acs over energy builds now, as acs advantage (less heat) has largely been taken away by energy draw, while its disadvantages of high weight, needing ammo, and ammo explosions yet remain. It just seems to me if we are giving ac/s a higher energy draw, where is the reason to take them over a laser and consumate heat sinks?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

jweltsch, on 23 August 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

In the current pts build im not seeing a ton of reasons to take acs over energy builds now, as acs advantage (less heat) has largely been taken away by energy draw, while its disadvantages of high weight, needing ammo, and ammo explosions yet remain. It just seems to me if we are giving ac/s a higher energy draw, where is the reason to take them over a laser and consumate heat sinks?

I agree that this was a poor decision, but PGIs reasoning is pinpoint frontloaded damage needs to be nerfed under the new system. I used to love ballisitcs, but in there PTS state I'm not touching them outside of the God-Rifle. Their big bonus for me was their high damage for low heat, that's why I mounted them.

I still remember when people were saying ballistic weapons would never be comp, those were the good old days, same with PPCs.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 23 August 2016 - 10:11 PM.

[davoodoo]

I would say go with uac5 dakka as ed hardly affects them, but then they got hit with nerfhammer twice now...

Edited by davoodoo, 24 August 2016 - 01:13 AM.

[EvilCow]

I had a good Treb config with ONE AC5, now it is useless thanks to the cooldown changes.




My question is: is this the kind of mechs supposed to be limited by this new system? if not then there is something deeply wrong.

[East Indy]

In PTS 1, Energy Draw wasn't doing much of anything. Upping draw values dials the systen to where it should be to actually affect gameplay decisions.

I played around in a couple of Jager dakka builds last night, and was pretty easily able to dish out damage. Wasn't sure what to expect, so I was pleased.

I do think there's room to consider restoring old velocity values.

Overall, the imbalances in PTS 2 amount to lasers still mostly operating outside of Energy Draw and combining for typically giant peek-alphas (LPLs particularly).

But that's simple to address, especially now that PGI is assigning by-weapon values. That's huge for specific tuning.

[Reno Blade]

I don't see a big issue here.
Even if your AC volley get a few points over the draw limit, the heat is managable.

What builds did you test that don't work?
Combination of 2x LP and AC5 is pretty much unaffected.

The PTS2 ED changes bring most weapons very close to the current GH numbers, but usually allow a bit more room while at the same time being affected by all other weapons you shoot at the same time.

As long as you stop blasting everything (40+ dmg alphas) there wouldnt be much to noticed compared to now. - even less penalty in most cases than what we have now (if you only compare single-weapon group).

[EvilCow]

Reno Blade, on 24 August 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

I don't see a big issue here.
Even if your AC volley get a few points over the draw limit, the heat is managable.

What builds did you test that don't work?
Combination of 2x LP and AC5 is pretty much unaffected.

You are missing my point, it is not affected by energy draw, it is affected by increase of cooldown of AC5, decrease of cooldown modules and reduction of damage of LPLs.

That lame configuration cannot use the AC5 for ROF anymore, it relied on the AC5 for a continuous pew pew, also LPLs are reduced in effectiveness. Basically the change made use of non-boated ACs even more marginal.

The problem is that a marginal mech like that is much more affected than the boats that were intended to be toned down.

None of my laser boats or AC boats is affected in the same way, you just have to form groups and alternate fire, something most players did even before energy draw because the old ghost heat.
For example I usually create left/right groups on laser/ppc boats, energy draw will have close to zero impact on those mechs for me.

Edited by EvilCow, 24 August 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[El Bandito]

My 6xAC2 Mauler will still be mauling.

[jweltsch]

El Bandito, on 24 August 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

My 6xAC2 Mauler will still be mauling.

think this might well be the new mauler build.... the ac/2 actually does more dps than the 5 now lol.

Reno Blade, on 24 August 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

I don't see a big issue here.
Even if your AC volley get a few points over the draw limit, the heat is managable.

What builds did you test that don't work?
Combination of 2x LP and AC5 is pretty much unaffected.

The PTS2 ED changes bring most weapons very close to the current GH numbers, but usually allow a bit more room while at the same time being affected by all other weapons you shoot at the same time.

As long as you stop blasting everything (40+ dmg alphas) there wouldnt be much to noticed compared to now. - even less penalty in most cases than what we have now (if you only compare single-weapon group).

The point is that why spend the extra tonnage and risk ammo explosions or running out of ammo if firing acs will draw more energy and heat you up when I can pack lasers and have maybe a tad more heat but handle it better because I have that much more tonnage and slots to take heat sinks. Under the new system I see little that makes acs worth more than lasers and heat sinks, and that little is not going to be worth ammo limits and explosions.

[Green Budgie]

I have just tried my King Crab with 4 Ultra AC/5 and the rapid fire part of it really doesn't work well. Ultra AC/5 is blocked by the energy draw from firing like it did. Previously I was a match for a dire wolf in this mech but now I really can't deliver damage fast enough. The set-up on energy draw being the same for all mechs also moves the game towards the lighter mechs. Going to try my mauler with AC/10's. next.... ah all 3 have disappeared.. this is worrying. Going to try my Enforder with AC10 and 5 mls.

[Cy Mitchell]

We currently have one group saying the UAC/AC rules all and another group saying there is no reason to take them over lasers only a few threads apart on this forum.

[Green Budgie]

OK the enforcer worked as expected, the new system didn't really affect it much. Going to try a Jaeger mech with 2 AC/10's

[Reno Blade]

jweltsch, on 24 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

think this might well be the new mauler build.... the ac/2 actually does more dps than the 5 now lol.



The point is that why spend the extra tonnage and risk ammo explosions or running out of ammo if firing acs will draw more energy and heat you up when I can pack lasers and have maybe a tad more heat but handle it better because I have that much more tonnage and slots to take heat sinks. Under the new system I see little that makes acs worth more than lasers and heat sinks, and that little is not going to be worth ammo limits and explosions.

I don't think that the 1.5 heat of an AC5 will "heat you up" is an correct statement.
Compare that to a MLaser generating 4 heat... or a PPC generating 10 heat.
FLPPD, range and RoF is the big benefit over lasers.

You just have to time your shots wisely to make best use of the dps of ACs, their PPFLD and then use the backup lasers when you have enough energy again. Nobody forces you to shoot everything and thats the good thing in this ED system, everyone will be restricted to "humane" levels of damage output.

[Green Budgie]

From my testing, I think most things are not affected much except for UAC's. They really don't work right. My King Crab with 4 Ultra AC/5's doesn't work and I have just watched a Dire wolf with 4 CUAC10's shut down and get killed. Most other stuff seems to be not much different. I think if they are going to go on with this they need to fix the UAC's issue. How about making the Energy Draw available dependent on the size of the mech? So maybe a 100 ton mech has twice as much as a 20 ton one. Anyway, going back to Live servers...

[Jman5]

the AC/5 is definitely in a tricky spot because of the UAC/5. Even outside the PTS, it's hard to justify the AC/5 when a UAC/5 fits there too. All I can think of are edge cases like AC/5 specific quirks, or when the smaller slot size comes into play.

I think the ac/5 needs the ac/10 treatment and give it a greater ammo efficiency. That would help further accentuate the tonnage advantage. 30 -> 40 rounds per ton.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

LPL needs to still get dumped to TT values, IS at 9 damage, clan at 10, yes IS is thankfully at 10 damage in PTS, but, still a point higher than it should be. This would help lower the ease of 30+ damage near pinpoint alphas (because IS pulse lasers fire pretty darn fast, more so with quirks). The energy hammer to the lower end AC's was un-needed, AC/20 and Gauss class weapons did need something due to how much damage they do compared to their heat, gauss has 1 heat normally, IS AC20 has 6 for 20 damage, clan ultra 20 is the only AC20 class weapon that isn't 6 heat and it is 7 heat. Again, AC20's are pretty beastly so I can see them increasing the energy draw for them, but, at 20 damage firing two would still proc 10 extra heat ontop of 12 base heat.

This of course also points to, friggen put the heat base for everyone to 30, full stop. We put weapons to proper heat and damage with the proper 30 heat cap (and make DHS and SHS a trade off of tonnage vs Space for IS which they currently are in the PTS) and we can get to probably a good solid foundation to start balancing stuff. Maybe Energy Draw will be needed from there, but, we need to address that high alphas are due to inflated damage amounts as well as our heat capacity is far greater than it should be.