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Energy Draw Is An Epic Fail - We Need A Better Solution...


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#1 50Calibur

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 05:50 PM

I've been reading through these forums for better part of the day, and there are some super suggestions out there that are way better than Energy Draw.

Just to name a few:
  • AC (and PPC) Recoil
  • Higher chances of internal heat damage
  • Penalties for running hot
  • Base the TIER system on number of games played
And many many more.


Could you guys (and gals) please post, in short paragraphs below, your suggestions so Piranha has a better choice than this broken Energy Draw idea (so they are all summarized in one place).

You can even post links to your OPs so if they want to see the details they can one click.

Edited by 50Calibur, 24 August 2016 - 05:50 PM.


#2 Navid A1

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 05:57 PM

First, change the thread title. It is highly unlikely to b taken seriously by PGI like this.

Second... I gave my detailed feedback and suggestions here (also in my sig):
http://mwomercs.com/...g-mixed-builds/

PGI showed that they are pretty much decided on ED an are just tweaking it.

So It is over for me... I have little reason to play after ED.

#3 Khobai

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:12 PM

I agree energy draw is epic fail

they need to fix the heat system

not add a convoluted new draw system to cover up the failures of the heat system

the game only needs one draw system. more than one is ridiculous.

Edited by Khobai, 24 August 2016 - 06:13 PM.


#4 Twinkleblade

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:30 PM

If one draw system would be enough we would have never gotten into a mess we are right now with GH

However while most of what I read are nice suggestions here most also require implementing another mechanic completely unrelated to ED.
Recoil while nice is a thing that has beens discussed in the past and we still didnt get it. Same for penalties when running hot.
All these changes however got pretty much blocked because we had a ghost heat system that noone liked. Finally PGI finds in my opinion a good solution that has also alot of potential for future implementations.
ED has its up and downs but at later states of the game we might implement more mechanics. People have been complaining about PGI to take it slow and yet here we are suggesting new ammo bar, recoil and all that stuff. PGI cant possibly balance all that in time.

Take it slow use the ED system and keep working from there on. Considering all that ED seems to me more like a stepping stone into the right direction. Calling it an epic fail sounds to me more like whining because change is bad.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 24 August 2016 - 06:32 PM.


#5 Monkey Lover

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:45 PM

decrease heat cap by 50% or increase all weapons heat by 100%
remove ghost heat
balance weapons as needed(Gauss will need balanced )

#6 Navid A1

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:50 PM

View PostMonkey Lover, on 24 August 2016 - 06:45 PM, said:

decrease heat cap by 50% or increase all weapons heat by 100%
remove ghost heat
balance weapons as needed(Gauss will need balanced )

Add true 2.0 double heat sinks to th mix and even that would be a better solution than the current iteration of energy draw

#7 Moonlight Grimoire

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 01:48 AM

View Post50Calibur, on 24 August 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

I've been reading through these forums for better part of the day, and there are some super suggestions out there that are way better than Energy Draw.

Just to name a few:
  • AC (and PPC) Recoil
  • Higher chances of internal heat damage
  • Penalties for running hot
  • Base the TIER system on number of games played
And many many more.



Could you guys (and gals) please post, in short paragraphs below, your suggestions so Piranha has a better choice than this broken Energy Draw idea (so they are all summarized in one place).

You can even post links to your OPs so if they want to see the details they can one click.


Lower heat capacity to a fixed 30, make DHS like they are on PTS as true double heat sinks, make IS have an option for cooling that is either tonnage intensive or slot intensive, fair trad off if 1 DHS is 3 slots and 1 ton for twice the power of 1 SHS which takes 1 slot and 1 ton. Heavier mechs could boat SHS with excess tonnage when low on slots, mechs with low tonnage by high slots (energy boat lights) can use DHS to fill out slots and get more cooling.

Having some form of shake when you fire more than 15 points of damage would be a good start, allows for all weapons individually to fire on target without issue and be pinpoint. Have a passive cooldown for a small delay (maybe .5 as ghost heat and energy draw both do) of how long said shake lasts. This makes chain firing PPC's LPL's, SRMs, and anything else that more than one of will put it over 20 damage in a strike more worth while, the lower heat capacity means people will do this anyways, alpha strikes from SRM bombers would take a hit (increase the spread by increments of 5 after 15). 6 ML Jenner? You fire one group then the other, no shake, plenty of damage.

The lower heat cap and added shake for firing more than 20 damage at a time. Yes that means 2xPPC will go right wherever you point them unless it is determined that with their range and velocity, which the PPC velocity is low for it's range band, you take care of what you were saying to change. Energy Draw is a band aid for a self inflicted wound of increased Capacity that came with the introduction of DHS into MWO. Since DHS came into MWO PGI has been struggling with how they implemented them, Ghost Heat and Energy draw are the results. A better move would be to roll back the changes, look at the fact that people can alpha currently several times before over heating and realize, it is the fact that people do avoid over heating as an indication of the heat cap is too high. Don't increase the heat of weapons, don't create a new weapon damage balance system centered around 30 when normally that is how heat is set up. PGI has the tools to fix this, I just feel Paul and maybe Russ just don't want to reneg on how they did DHS when they first came out.

With a lower heat cap you will see people start taking heat damage faster and easier, throw in movement, torso twist, and arm flex penalties (maybe even add in the shake effect from earlier) in accordance to the magnitude of how hot over say 50% a mech is at. This allows for some effective lower heat builds to run without much shake and without heat penalties, but, it would be rather nasty. Change flamers to cancel out cooling rate effectively of x number of heat sinks, this would make the weapon an active debuff weapon instead of making mech's stun locked due to the high heat, instead they will cool slower and have to pick their shots better as well as fire with more time between weapon groups.

Tiers need to be fixed, instead of being an XP bar it is instead a representation of your rank within a tier bracket. Make it so the first 25 matches as a new player don't count for PSR ranking, it is seed data, maybe put it up at 50, 75, or 100, then once they hit the number of matches done that data is taken and used to place them with a rank against every other player in the game. Yes this is very much like ELO, but, with taking certain ranks and making them play within certain brackets it eases some of the frustration ELO created where anyone could play anyone.

#8 Greyhart

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:16 AM

The problem is the heat system look at my thread http://mwomercs.com/...he-right-place/

the problem is in the penalties. they need a gradient of penalties not just a single one that kicks in at 100%.

With a gradient of penalties you can adjust behaviour better and allow people to run what they want at the same time. So that the atlas can punch through enemy lines with massive alphas but suffers a detriment because of that.

lowering the heat cap and changing dissipation might work too. however a simple penalty system would be easier and quicker to implement.

#9 Crushko

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:29 AM

First off they should state what they want to achieve. Until now everyone has an idea what Energy Draw is supposed to achieve, but nobody can say for sure. Once we know what Energy Draw is supposed to achieve, the question is "why cant this be achieved in the current Ghost Heat system with some tweaks?".

One thing we read about Ghost Heat is that people can "alpha" 2 LPLs and 3 Meds three times in a row. From my perspective a true alpha would be 2 LPLS + 6 Meds + 3 SRM6s aka something that takes up your entire heat bar in one salvo. However such a build would not be a meta build. In other words I dont see the alpha issue myself.

When it comes to suggestions to improve the game one of my highest priorites would be to remove the chokepoint meta from the Faction Warfare maps and make them more tactical.

#10 Geminus

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 02:57 AM

http://mwomercs.com/...ble-top-vs-fps/

#11 Wibbledtodeath

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 03:08 AM

Give it a go, then have an opinion

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 25 August 2016 - 03:08 AM.


#12 Steve Pryde

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 05:49 AM

View PostTwinkleblade, on 24 August 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

If one draw system would be enough we would have never gotten into a mess we are right now with GH

One draw system would be enough if we have REAL penaltys for climbing up the heat scale. I mean things like hud flickering (u cant aim well when your crosshair is "dancing"), getting slower till the mech stands still, ammo explosions and at the end then you shutdown for seconds.

You can do an hot alpha strike but then you will have problems to move into cover cause you're so slow and can't aim your next alpha volley or half your mech explodes because of an ammo explosion.

And you know what? It would be just like in the table top because it comes from it.

#13 Tiantara

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 06:26 AM

Quote

half your mech explodes because of an ammo explosion.


- We already have that...

#14 Lostdragon

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 06:39 AM

View PostCrushko, on 25 August 2016 - 02:29 AM, said:

First off they should state what they want to achieve. Until now everyone has an idea what Energy Draw is supposed to achieve, but nobody can say for sure. Once we know what Energy Draw is supposed to achieve, the question is "why cant this be achieved in the current Ghost Heat system with some tweaks?".

One thing we read about Ghost Heat is that people can "alpha" 2 LPLs and 3 Meds three times in a row. From my perspective a true alpha would be 2 LPLS + 6 Meds + 3 SRM6s aka something that takes up your entire heat bar in one salvo. However such a build would not be a meta build. In other words I dont see the alpha issue myself.

When it comes to suggestions to improve the game one of my highest priorites would be to remove the chokepoint meta from the Faction Warfare maps and make them more tactical.


They did explicitly state what they want it to accomplish, I have to give PGI credit for providing good documentation and explanation of their reasoning with regard to ED, even though I don't like the system.

Read this, there is a whole section about the overarching goals of ED: https://mwomercs.com...ic-test-session


#15 Steve Pryde

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 07:01 AM

View PostTiantara, on 25 August 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:


- We already have that...

Not in that way that I mean. I know that the ammo can explode if you overheat/go into shutdown. What I mean was ammo explosion if you climb up the heat scale too high/into the red line (hello older mechwarrrior games). But maybe we forget about it and just force onto hud flickering and slowing down mechs.

#16 davoodoo

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:24 AM

View PostNavid A1, on 24 August 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

Add true 2.0 double heat sinks to th mix and even that would be a better solution than the current iteration of energy draw

Dont forget to adjust them for reduced cooldowns, ppc fires how often?? oh every 5 seconds, then 0.4 dissipation...

Edited by davoodoo, 25 August 2016 - 09:25 AM.


#17 Tiantara

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 10:36 AM

View PostSteve Pryde, on 25 August 2016 - 07:01 AM, said:

Not in that way that I mean. I know that the ammo can explode if you overheat/go into shutdown. What I mean was ammo explosion if you climb up the heat scale too high/into the red line (hello older mechwarrrior games). But maybe we forget about it and just force onto hud flickering and slowing down mechs.


- Maybe than you like my suggestion (my post, last comment) about changing a little ED and Heat bar in HUD, to show both over-depleted ED points and overheated data (when you go outside of 100% limit and get damage. not only shutdown)
So - you clearly can see that you go off-limit of 30 points ED
And - you can see all heat you take over suggested 98-100% max heat before overheat.
If you see that "over" you can understand that now your mech got damage or addition heat to it.





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