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Is The Goal Of Energy Draw Realistically Achievable?


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#1 Lostdragon

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:03 AM

Let's talk about the stated goal here:

Quote

The overall goal of the Energy Draw feature is to create a gameplay dynamic wherein a player can choose to focus on burst damage through Alpha Strikes, or sustained Damage per Second (DPS) through staggered fire.


We all know burst damage through alpha strikes works, that has dominated the meta since forever. More and more, however, I am starting to understand that DPS builds built around staggered fire will probably never work unless you completely eliminate the possibility of big burst alphas.

The DPS builds that work on live right now work because they apply constant pressure with a steady stream of autocannon shells. They are not frontline mechs, they tend to be fairly fragile and fill a firesupport role, but they can be very effective and fun. They are effective partially because of the suppression they provide through cockpit shake and steadily chewing up enemies.

Good players in alpha mechs facing a DPS mech 1v1 as it stands on live right now will instantly recognize they are being DPSed and dump an alpha into the enemy and move to cover or just get to cover immediately if they are at high heat or weapons are on CD. The alpha mech will try to hide and peek to play to its strength and the DPS mech's weakness while the DPS mech needs to be constantly maneouvering to try and maintain fire on the enemy.

This is where good teamwork and a good team composition can really shine on live. A team with DPS and alpha based mechs working together can push to devestating effect with a bit of coordination. The alpha mechs rotate in and out to cooldown while the DPS mechs cover them and keep them from being flanked. The firing line of the alpha mechs prevents a counter charge by the enemy to keep the DPS mechs safe.

Increasing the cooldowns of ACs and severly restricting the ability to double tap UACs breaks this dynamic and doesn't really replace it with an effective strategy for DPS mechs. Now on PTS they are forced to act more like alpha mechs because if they try to keep up that steady barrage they quickly overheat or they are just unable to due longer cooldowns.

The question now becomes does this shift the DPS meta to a new and better form? I do not believe it does. What this system is effectively trying to do is shoehorn more loadouts using different weapons into a DPS role by encouraging them to fire a group of weapons every 1.5 seconds (ride the energy draw, as the design goals state), however I don't think this is going to be an effective way to play in 12v12. Even if you are facing lower damage alphas than are currently on live you still can't afford to remain exposed for the burn time and energy replenishment of laser DPS builds with 2-3 groups or hybrid laser AC DPS builds because you will have significant down time between firings in most builds. That means you will have to basically play like an alpha mech with shorter cooldowns and seek cover more often while supressing less.

The only way that I can see a stagger fire system like this working is if no one can ever do a big alpha strike and everyone is forced to stagger fire all the time. That would be bad for brawling and striking, which respectively require a shoot and twist until CD is over and a stick and move strategy.

TLDR: I am afraid the goals of the system are inherently incompatible, that it is impossible to force a dynamic where staggered fire builds can compete with alpha builds. DPS builds need to apply constant pressure and the energy draw system combined with nerfs to traditional dps weapons effectively negates their ability to do that without replacing it with a viable alternative.

#2 FupDup

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:07 AM

To sum it up, DPS builds are actually just small alpha strikes that can fire really fast and sustain that firing rate (i.e. heat efficiency).

They aren't staggered. Staggered fire will always be outclassed unless they seriously distort the entire game around it.

Edited by FupDup, 24 August 2016 - 06:08 AM.


#3 davoodoo

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:09 AM

Ofc they are achievable, everything at 10s cooldown regardless of dmg and then cap alpha...

#4 Lostdragon

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:39 AM

View Postdavoodoo, on 24 August 2016 - 06:09 AM, said:

Ofc they are achievable, everything at 10s cooldown regardless of dmg and then cap alpha...


Ok, let me rephrase the question then, are they achievable in a fun way that won't drive 95% of the (relatively small already) away for good? Because that is what this suggestion would do.

Edited by Lostdragon, 24 August 2016 - 06:40 AM.


#5 davoodoo

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:40 AM

View PostLostdragon, on 24 August 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ok, let me rephrase the question then, are they achievable in a fun way that won't drive 95% of the (relatively small already) away for good? Because that is what this suggestiin would do.

No i cant see a way.

Different cooldown times are inherently imbalaned when you have capped dmg.
Normally slower weapons would have higher dmg and it would balance itself out, but not when you got their damage limited.

Edited by davoodoo, 24 August 2016 - 06:41 AM.


#6 Karl Streiger

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:46 AM

View PostLostdragon, on 24 August 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

Ok, let me rephrase the question then, are they achievable in a fun way that won't drive 95% of the (relatively small already) away for good? Because that is what this suggestion would do.

how so?
a 10sec damage cap could be like MechCommader Gold:

Gauss = 7.5dmg every 5sec
ERPPC = 7.5dmg every 7.5sec
AC 20 = 15dmg every 7.5sec
UAC 20 = 15dmg every 5sec
....

#7 Lostdragon

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:52 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 24 August 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

how so?
a 10sec damage cap could be like MechCommader Gold:

Gauss = 7.5dmg every 5sec
ERPPC = 7.5dmg every 7.5sec
AC 20 = 15dmg every 7.5sec
UAC 20 = 15dmg every 5sec
....


10 second cooldowns for everything won't be fun for a real time shooter game. Go into a match with a light and only fore your weapons every 10 seconds and see how that feels.

#8 Dolph Hoskins

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:03 AM

The only worthwhile bonus of going through the pain and trouble of getting ED in a decent spot is in the case that PGI adds newer tech weapons into the game. Expand ye old weapons locker. With ghost heat the addition of any completely new weapons would require them to be ghost heat approved and quantified. I can see how that might be a pain in the *** for everyone involved.

Buuuut. If PGI never adds anything new to the table then ED seems like a whole lot of effort for nothing.

#9 Greyhart

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:28 AM

ED is better than the current system but doesn't address the problem.

The problem is the heat system and penalties or lack thereof.

Between 0% and 99% is meaningless there is no cost benefit to weigh against the alpha strike. Alpha strike until heat reaches 99% then chain fire riding the 99% with no penalties.

increasing penalties for increasing heat would seem to make alpha striking gain a costs benefit calculation.

#10 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:33 AM

View PostThe Ripper13, on 24 August 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

The only worthwhile bonus of going through the pain and trouble of getting ED in a decent spot is in the case that PGI adds newer tech weapons into the game. Expand ye old weapons locker. With ghost heat the addition of any completely new weapons would require them to be ghost heat approved and quantified. I can see how that might be a pain in the *** for everyone involved.

Buuuut. If PGI never adds anything new to the table then ED seems like a whole lot of effort for nothing.


There is no precedent for this, and frankly I seriously doubt this is going to happen for a long time, and I doubt ED will have anything to do with that.

#11 Lostdragon

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:43 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 24 August 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:


There is no precedent for this, and frankly I seriously doubt this is going to happen for a long time, and I doubt ED will have anything to do with that.


I think the latest implementation proves what I have thought all along, that ED is just a roundabout way to add heat to the GR and ACs. I feel like PGI doesn't want to muck with some basic values on existing weapons and equipment but changes have to be made to balance the game. They aren't sure what will actually work so they are throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

ED is going to basically require massive amounts of tuning for every weapon and is going to end up making the game harder to balance and harder to learn.

Edited by Lostdragon, 24 August 2016 - 07:44 AM.


#12 Tiantara

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:45 AM

View PostGreyhart, on 24 August 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:


Between 0% and 99% is meaningless there is no cost benefit to weigh against the alpha strike. Alpha strike until heat reaches 99% then chain fire riding the 99% with no penalties.


- No penalty but still have heat. Every chain fire after 86% of heat turns off mech.
Before patch on PTS you can chainfire, do 1-2 half-alphas (exact 30 damage) and than go back to chainfire. Now - nope.
That,s why I love ED before and have some bad feelings now.
Changing penalty back to not 0.5 but 0.75 make play better with already longest cooldown of longrange.

#13 Dolph Hoskins

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:48 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 24 August 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:


There is no precedent for this, and frankly I seriously doubt this is going to happen for a long time, and I doubt ED will have anything to do with that.


That was pretty much what I already figured. Just saying the "system" either way is just numbers manipulation. There is no reason it couldn't be made to work exactly how they wanted in any iteration. Just some are more reasonable/sensible than others.

So yeah, waste of time. I'll stick with that assessment.

#14 Greyhart

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:51 AM

View PostTiantara, on 24 August 2016 - 07:45 AM, said:


- No penalty but still have heat. Every chain fire after 86% of heat turns off mech.
Before patch on PTS you can chainfire, do 1-2 half-alphas (exact 30 damage) and than go back to chainfire. Now - nope.
That,s why I love ED before and have some bad feelings now.
Changing penalty back to not 0.5 but 0.75 make play better with already longest cooldown of longrange.



Sorry I was identifying the problem with the current system not how ED effects it.

ED just dumps more heat into a broken heat system. But that heat penalty will only work if it takes the heat to 100% or more. It only adjusts the number of alpha strikes not the size of them.

If you were to say 0 to 30 heat has no effect and then over that there are increasing penalties then I think you would see a change in behaviour. Even basic cosmetic things like warnings sirens going off and cockpit flicker that effected nothing mechanically would I think produce some change in the use of alpha strikes.

#15 Lostdragon

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:56 AM

Lots of good discussion but I would like to steer the thread back to the topic of the OP, is it possible to make stagger fire and alpha based builds competitive with each other in the same environment while not sucking all the fun and freedom of customization out of the game?

#16 Greyhart

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 08:00 AM

View PostLostdragon, on 24 August 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Lots of good discussion but I would like to steer the thread back to the topic of the OP, is it possible to make stagger fire and alpha based builds competitive with each other in the same environment while not sucking all the fun and freedom of customization out of the game?



I think it is but not through the ED system. You need to look again at heat penalties.

At the moment your alpha strike is limited only by your heat cap and if you have a high heat cap you have high dissipation.

#17 davoodoo

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 08:48 AM

View PostGreyhart, on 24 August 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

ED is better than the current system but doesn't address the problem.

The problem is the heat system and penalties or lack thereof.

Between 0% and 99% is meaningless there is no cost benefit to weigh against the alpha strike. Alpha strike until heat reaches 99% then chain fire riding the 99% with no penalties.

increasing penalties for increasing heat would seem to make alpha striking gain a costs benefit calculation.

At 1st day i mentioned that 30 dmg alpha limit wont be enough and ppl will ask for further nerfs...

Guess what happened?? pgi nerfs ppfld below 30 dmg and this quote happened...

Now im waiting for inevitable "can fire 1 weapon at a time", its coming...

Edited by davoodoo, 24 August 2016 - 08:49 AM.


#18 Exard3k

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:44 AM

I checked most of my favorite mechs, some fittings have to be rebuilt from scratch but I already got nice new builds. Majority of my Mechs won't have to care about energy very much...just minor adaptions to not fire all of them at once. I'm almost fine with the PTS build...needs some more iterations but generally its an improvement. Can't see any better change other than giving sizes to hardpoints like in MW4, but this would mean far less customization but also emphasises on the different chassis and variants.

I can do more stuff with the PTS where on the Live servers I would hit the invisible ghost heat shutdown wall (at a cost).

Edited by Exard3k, 24 August 2016 - 11:17 AM.


#19 Lostdragon

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 12:14 PM

View PostExard3k, on 24 August 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

I can do more stuff with the PTS where on the Live servers I would hit the invisible ghost heat shutdown wall (at a cost).


What builds, specifically?

Edited by Lostdragon, 24 August 2016 - 12:14 PM.


#20 Karl Streiger

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:37 PM

View PostLostdragon, on 24 August 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

10 second cooldowns for everything won't be fun for a real time shooter game. Go into a match with a light and only fore your weapons every 10 seconds and see how that feels.

It is no 10sec cooldown. As you might have seen I just reduced the damage accordingly to the reloads
If you might look at MWLL there it seems to be similar.

In other words.
If I have a Medium Laser - it can fire every 2seconds with a quick pulse of 0.3sec - dealing 1.15dmg. Now I think (my personal opinion that weapons relying on DPS should outDPS every weapon that is relying on alpha)
So this Medium Laser - can now fire every 1.75sec for 1.15dmg (~0.6DPS)
While the Pulse Laser becomes a weapon that fires every 0.75sec for 0.8dmg (~1DPS)

ammunition supported weapons should fire faster
The AC5 might fire in burst mode 3 shots with each 0.4dmg every 1.2seconds (~1 DPS)

while PPC as writen above fires only every 7.5sec for only 7.5dmg (1DPS)

it is important that you support the roles you described above. You should need direct firing DPS as well as sniper and LRM mechs - plus some extra punch at short range.
You don't create such behaviour by tweaking random numbers but by working out a concept and don't give a damn about "true TT values" you might start at tt but you have to derivate each and every value


the current damage is just for standard - not double armor





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