84 replies to this topic

[Husker Dude]

Has the "Failed to find match" bug been brought up yet?
Been having this happen quite a bit since the patch, even after the hotfix.

[jper4]

any plans for having our favorite mechs sorted portion of the mech bay actually stick after you log out? it's annoying to re-favorite everything whenever I log back in.

[Rebel Ace Fryslan]

As we Know PGI doesn't care about CW FW or how they want to call it now.
They admited they didn't look at cw for 3/4 of a year after 2y8m + the year of waiting it not near a working system.

I don't think they will/want to deliver it.

Edited by Rebel Ace Fryslan, 26 August 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Go look up "fallacious appeal to common knowledge" if you want to know how you just embarrassed yourself.

[Zolaz]

Void Angel, on 26 August 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Go look up "fallacious appeal to common knowledge" if you want to know how you just embarrassed yourself.

Can you name a change done by PGI that has brought players to FW? When you start with a larger number of players and it continually dwindles down to smaller and smaller numbers ... maybe there is a problem. And the people in charge of the madhouse seem to believe that doing the same thing over and over will give them different results.

[Wintersdark]

Zolaz, on 26 August 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

Can you name a change done by PGI that has brought players to FW? When you start with a larger number of players and it continually dwindles down to smaller and smaller numbers ... maybe there is a problem. And the people in charge of the madhouse seem to believe that doing the same thing over and over will give them different results.

Their inability to fix it doesn't mean they don't care or don't want to.

Everyone wants to think the solutions are simple, but they're not. It's easy to think everyone agrees what the problems are, but they don't; and even on things where there IS agreement, the agreement is more in that "This particular thing isn't good" but not "This is exactly how to correct it." - it's easy to say the lane/MOBA style early CW maps suck (they do) but that doesn't help make good CW maps, or even define what would make a CW map good.

[SQW]

Wintersdark, on 26 August 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

Their inability to fix it doesn't mean they don't care or don't want to.

Everyone wants to think the solutions are simple, but they're not. It's easy to think everyone agrees what the problems are, but they don't; and even on things where there IS agreement, the agreement is more in that "This particular thing isn't good" but not "This is exactly how to correct it." - it's easy to say the lane/MOBA style early CW maps suck (they do) but that doesn't help make good CW maps, or even define what would make a CW map good.

And there are many things that some people assume was impossible until someone else came around and did it. Given PGI's constant failure to meet their own goals, I think it's less the task is too hard and more PGI is not the sharpest tool in the box. LRM, double armor for balance, missing convergence mechanics, collision/warping, GH, GH2.0, mini-map, 3 phases of faction warfare, drop deck, favourite list - the list of PGI inability to deliver quality work is well known.

The ONLY thing PGI did well was updating the mech models and even that is due to one man rather than the leadership and vision of PGI.

[Wintersdark]

SQW, on 26 August 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

And there are many things that some people assume was impossible until someone else came around and did it. Given PGI's constant failure to meet their own goals, I think it's less the task is too hard and more PGI is not the sharpest tool in the box. LRM, double armor for balance, missing convergence mechanics, collision/warping, GH, GH2.0, mini-map, 3 phases of faction warfare, drop deck, favourite list - the list of PGI inability to deliver quality work is well known.

The ONLY thing PGI did well was updating the mech models and even that is due to one man rather than the leadership and vision of PGI.

I didn't say it was impossible, only that it was hard. These things are hard. And I wasn't standing up for PGI; just saying that it's pretty much absurd that they don't want it to be awesome. Of course they do. The more awesome it is, the more successful they are, after all.

Not white knighting here; just assuming PGI "doesn't want to" is stupid. Maybe it's because they're bad, maybe it's because they simply lack the manpower/resources, maybe it's because of other design considerations, maybe it's because fundamentally, they don't really understand their own game, maybe it's a combination of everything. I've no way to know, as I have no clue what goes on in their meetings.

Edited by Wintersdark, 26 August 2016 - 06:27 PM.

[Void Angel]

Zolaz, on 26 August 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

Can you name a change done by PGI that has brought players to FW? When you start with a larger number of players and it continually dwindles down to smaller and smaller numbers ... maybe there is a problem. And the people in charge of the madhouse seem to believe that doing the same thing over and over will give them different results.

Maybe you should get back to me when you look it up too - so you can actually understand what I'm saying.

[Void Angel]

Instead of implying straw men and asking me to produce evidence for positions I've never taken?

[Void Angel]

It's this screaming rage-baby mentality that annoys me. Nothing is ever good - ever. No matter how many times the Salt Island crowd predicts the "death of the game," and is proven wrong by the game's continued existence, the same tired conspiracies are recycled every. fracking. time. And it's always self-fracking-evident that they were Right All Along:

Map improved?

Why didn't you implement this change in the game engine?!

Game engine bug fixed?

Why don't you make new content?!

New 'mechs released?

Why don't you make new maps?!

New map created?

Maps are boring!

New 'mechs released?

Hurr, hurr, "Wanna buy a 'mech pack?" Why don't you fix your broken game instead?!

Heat Scale system abolished and replaced with simpler, more intuitive system?

We all know PGI doesn't care about faction play!

Faction play being worked on?

PGI doesn't listen!

PGI listens to complaints about the new drop deck functionality?

It's not fast enough! They don't really care!

It's always the same, sometimes word for word. Everything is awful, every change is grounds for a forum tantrum - yet you're all still here! Still spouting the same unsourced claims, the same silly conspiracies. When people start claiming that "PGI doesn't care" about a system they're still investing considerable resources in, that's a sure sign they've left the path of reason. Same thing goes for repeatedly ignoring silly things like facts, e.g. the frequently repeated idea that PGI is "wasting" resources on things like 'mechs which could be used for the complainer's pet hobby horse - despite being told over and over that making 'mechs uses different resources withing the company. Ditto for groundless (and untestable) claims that This Thing would have made the game Ever So Much Better, if only PGI had listened to the "player base" by which is invariably meant the person who wants This Thing. But if PGI actually went out and did what all these people are actually asking for, it would be disastrous - because what is being demanded here is nothing less than design by committee.

Take cones of fire as a way to adjudicate heat: Use cones of fire (like jump jet reticle judder) to penalize 'mechs that are running too hot, or are firing too many weapons at once. OK, not a bad idea a priori - though I can see some potential issues off the bat, either technically or in comparison to the Heat Scale and/or Energy Draw systems. But this isn't a new idea - and whenever it's been suggested, there's been pretty heavy pushback on the forums. So, who does PGI "listen" to? To the average player, whoever that is? New players? Top-level players? Or do they try to gauge the feelings and opinions of the entire player base, then balance the game according to their own judgement - adapting player ideas if they find them to be good?

Designing a game by opinion polls is a Bad Idea. The people demanding that their idea be used give lip service to that fact, but insist on believing that they're special. Their idea is perfect, or could be; it's certainly better than PGI's lazy/incompetent/evil/stupid/greedy solutions! And PGI should just listen to them, because obviously their idea is flawless!

And they can never see that they look like the famous guy in the movie trope who gets locked away in an insane asylum with a bunch of lunatics who all think that they're the real him.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 August 2016 - 12:15 AM.

[Rebel Ace Fryslan]

I like the MWO, but there simply not made CW.

There a reactionary team, not a envisioned team (any more).
So the mech keep getting tweaked to performance and not not by ability (physics/logic)
If that changes so often, how can you build a good system.

FW is less a priority, because the action/life is on pugs.
While the core should be the FW, from which the outcome should have effect on the MWO-universe.


I can only guess they where not able to do that, because of quality or funds?

[Wintersdark]

Rebel Ace Fryslan, on 27 August 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

I like the MWO, but there simply not made CW.

There a reactionary team, not a envisioned team (any more).

Reactionary? How can anything they do not be viewed as reactionary - basically anything at all? Whether they are or are not, no matter what they do, people complain (see Void's post above) because it's not The Thing they want.

This cycle has repeated itself every time PGI does anything since I started in 2012.

Quote

So the mech keep getting tweaked to performance and not not by ability (physics/logic)
If that changes so often, how can you build a good system.

They don't use "physics/logic" because:

1) Battletech Physics are stupid and incomprehensible based on random novels written in by different authors each following their own "rule of cool" and beholden to nobody to make any kind of cohesive effects.
2) "logic" when used in these discussions 9 times out of 10 means "wat I think", not really "logic" at all

No, mechs HAVE to be balanced on performance in game; there isn't anything else.

Quote

FW is less a priority, because the action/life is on pugs.
While the core should be the FW, from which the outcome should have effect on the MWO-universe.

FW is a priority, a pretty major one. That's why Russ recently had his FW-round table, and now they're digesting that information and designing whatever response they want. PGI puts a lot of time into FW, but they're not going to put all their time into FW, because as much as it's important to them to get it running better, quickplay is what's paying the bills right now. If they neglect QP, and fail again in FW, then everything dies. Besides, (as Void said above again), there are many different departments, folks who do different things. They can continue making mechs without impacting FW progress in any way. Indeed, they must, to pay salaries.

I get you think the core game should be FW. The core game should have been FW from the start. But it isn't. It didn't exist at all until very recently in fact (a long and sordid tale). So they have to work with the game they have now.

[LordLosh]

We are mad because it shouldn't take a month
We are mad because it's not a bug it's a design they created
We are mad because FW was promised to be something it's not
We are mad because town hall on FW was a joke focused on God damn buckets
Mad a favorite system we used to have was taken away and the new one is broken/worthless
I'm happy the new mech is awesome
I'm happy the new {LT-MOB-25} pit items are cool
I'm happy new decals
I'm happy map remake looks good
I'm happy GH 2.0 will be gone soon
Point is yea we whine and complain but this is life in a spoiled 1st world countries. With out change and constantly trying to better yourself, you are wasting time

[Rebel Ace Fryslan]

Wintersdark, on 27 August 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

Reactionary? How can anything they do not be viewed as reactionary - basically anything at all? Whether they are or are not, no matter what they do, people complain (see Void's post above) because it's not The Thing they want.

This cycle has repeated itself every time PGI does anything since I started in 2012.


They don't use "physics/logic" because:

1) Battletech Physics are stupid and incomprehensible based on random novels written in by different authors each following their own "rule of cool" and beholden to nobody to make any kind of cohesive effects.
2) "logic" when used in these discussions 9 times out of 10 means "wat I think", not really "logic" at all

No, mechs HAVE to be balanced on performance in game; there isn't anything else.

FW is a priority, a pretty major one. That's why Russ recently had his FW-round table, and now they're digesting that information and designing whatever response they want. PGI puts a lot of time into FW, but they're not going to put all their time into FW, because as much as it's important to them to get it running better, quickplay is what's paying the bills right now. If they neglect QP, and fail again in FW, then everything dies. Besides, (as Void said above again), there are many different departments, folks who do different things. They can continue making mechs without impacting FW progress in any way. Indeed, they must, to pay salaries.

I get you think the core game should be FW. The core game should have been FW from the start. But it isn't. It didn't exist at all until very recently in fact (a long and sordid tale). So they have to work with the game they have now.

your twisting allot there. I'm not that pessimistic. just expect FW to come together.
I'm not crying with every change, i play and have fun.


And the so called Round table, wasn't that at all. Just a 'vision' explain from russ, not a round table with a discussion, there where so many good question and excellent work by NGNG that didn't come to it at all.

[Dee Eight]

You can't fix the seal clubbing that is FW without a massive influx of players, or breaking up the unit system. Because otherwise no solo player will want to waste their time with it and the vast majority of the game members are solo folks. The number of REAL people in this world who want team atmosphere and comaradie and what not... ya know...people who become fireman, police officers, volunteer for the military, etc... is a LOT smaller demographic than folks who view themselves as loners. And its now a case of a bunch of NHL teams clubbing all the pickup hockey game players, and wondering why no one then wants to come out to their games....

Edited by Dee Eight, 27 August 2016 - 07:42 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Dee Eight, on 27 August 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

You can't fix the seal clubbing that is FW without a massive influx of players, or breaking up the unit system. Because otherwise no solo player will want to waste their time with it and the vast majority of the game members are solo folks. The number of REAL people in this world who want team atmosphere and comaradie and what not... ya know...people who become fireman, police officers, volunteer for the military, etc... is a LOT smaller demographic than folks who view themselves as loners. And its now a case of a bunch of NHL teams clubbing all the pickup hockey game players, and wondering why no one then wants to come out to their games....

And this here is a basically unsolvable problem. Regardless of how one feels about the whole situation, it exists, and pops are too low to say "screw them" to either side.

This is while, while I'm not standing up for PGI here(they still made the unfixable system) that it's well beyond them not caring or n not wanting to fix it.

It's HARD, and their are no easy solutions.

[Ninjah]

Don't open crates, weapons and stuff don't show up in the inventory. Time for another hotfix :/

[Dee Eight]

Exactly... I mean go into FW now... Oh boy I died to Pat Kell four times in one match (the same as being scored upon by Gretsky or Rocket Richard or someone in an old timers pro game). Once is novel... four times... gets rather old and tiring. And when all that are left for FP players are pros and seasoned veterans... who largely avoid actually playing each other as well... well.. why would the rank and file give a damn about the mode or its death ? My interest in the mode begins and ends with events that give prizes only for playing the mode.

Edited by Dee Eight, 27 August 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Chados]

Wintersdark, on 25 August 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

... It was a dumb change, it was fixed, and we moved on. Lets forget it once the text is nicely readable again, please.

Jesus, the grudges people hold.


I don't think so? Where did you get that?

They were talking about it being a bug in the dropdeck selector earlier in the thread. I haven't tested it. But I'd not mind seeing it, frankly.