42 replies to this topic

[Greyhart]

I want to see know if people think the current heat penalties are in the right place.

As I see it Ghost heat and the Energy Draw system are band aids over the broken leg of the heat penalty system.

At the moment the penalty is that if you go over 100% you shutdown (5 second time out) and/or receive damage.

This means that all heat build up prior to 100% is effectively meaningless as there is no downside to it. so if you want to adjust behaviour you have to find away to dump massive heat into the system to have the penalty take effect. This results in having to make a system that adds weapon heat in certain circumstances.

If however there were penalties, which are less severe than shut down, you could adjust behaviour without having to add massive heat, by adjusting the penalties and when they kick in.

The current system is like a justice system that has the death penalty as its only punishment. You aren't going to punish someone for stealing a loaf of bread by killing them. But eventually if the person steals enough you are going to have to do something and that would have to be the death penalty, which might be considered a bit of an over reaction to stealing that last loaf of bread.

I don't think there would be any need to add new mechanics into the penalty system. It could start with alarms (on a side thought you could sell new alarm sounds like someone saying "this is fine. Everything is fine") and then HUD problems, cross hair shake (like jump jets) problems, then speed penalties. all of these appear in the game already, everyone can cope with them when they occur.

But please note the question isn't on my suggestions just simply would it be a better system with a gradient of penalties before shutdown? Or is shutdown the only penalty that should be used?

If you don't think a gradient of penalties would improve the system let me know why. I can't understand your perspective if all you do is froth at the mouth

If you agree perhaps a suggestion on the types of penalties.

ps yes I think everyone knows about the TT heat penalties.

Edited by Greyhart, 25 August 2016 - 01:22 AM.

[El Bandito]

Yep, progressive heat penalties, such as the one you have described would add more immersion to this game.

[Pahrias]

Yes i feel those changes would improve game play, even if only as an extra visual warning of heat build up. If i remember correctly, MW2:Mercs had a system very similar, with your HUD practically disappearing at high temperatures. Might have been MW3 thinking about it.
Another idea, add a chance to cook off ammo in the 95%+ region, excepting gauss, but that could melt thus depriving you of ammo. it would have to incorporate some kind of multiplier VS time spent at 95% but should work.
for the laser builds, the excess heat could add a chance to destroy the next energy weapon fired. again, would only happen if you stayed at extreme temps for long times. add an element of risk that isn't instant death. or instant legged.

[Peter2k]

Again I feel like it's Tina's job to post stuff from Russ's twitter

Someone asked him on twitter if more heat related penalties could be added (Slowing of mech, HUD flickering, ammo cooking off )
Russ said they'd be willing to have a look at it once ED goes live

Sigh let me see if I can find the tweet

Edit:

Though I think it's not the only response I saw regarding heat penalties

Edited by Peter2k, 25 August 2016 - 08:11 AM.

[Lykaon]

I am thinking the Dev team is looking at E.D. (... I'm not going to cal energy draw E.D. it's just silly) as a solution to spike damage and alpha spamming and not as a means of managing the pace of the game.

Energy draw can be utilized to keep the amount of damage applied to one spot at the same time in check.

A progressive heat penalty system could instead be used as a means of managing the pace of damage application.


So if say 30 damage is the desired max alpha strike we use energy draw mechanics for that.

If it is decided that time to kill is still too brief progressive penalties could be used to discourage redlining the heat with alpha spam as soon as Energy Draw allows.

Edited by Lykaon, 25 August 2016 - 10:00 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Tabletop heat was never going to work in this game, because it assumes every weapon gets fired exactly once in X seconds, whether it's a gauss rifle or a small pulse laser. And double heat sinks basically made the original heat system meaningless... I have 14 DHS, I fire my 9 medium lasers and am still frosty, no penalties ever.

So they're off the reservation from closed beta onward. Energy draw is going Further afield, but I'll do my part with testing and feedback to help it make the game more balanced.

[MauttyKoray]

Greyhart, on 25 August 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

I want to see know if people think the current heat penalties are in the right place.

As I see it Ghost heat and the Energy Draw system are band aids over the broken leg of the heat penalty system.

At the moment the penalty is that if you go over 100% you shutdown (5 second time out) and/or receive damage.

This means that all heat build up prior to 100% is effectively meaningless as there is no downside to it. so if you want to adjust behaviour you have to find away to dump massive heat into the system to have the penalty take effect. This results in having to make a system that adds weapon heat in certain circumstances.

If however there were penalties, which are less severe than shut down, you could adjust behaviour without having to add massive heat, by adjusting the penalties and when they kick in.

The current system is like a justice system that has the death penalty as its only punishment. You aren't going to punish someone for stealing a loaf of bread by killing them. But eventually if the person steals enough you are going to have to do something and that would have to be the death penalty, which might be considered a bit of an over reaction to stealing that last loaf of bread.

I don't think there would be any need to add new mechanics into the penalty system. It could start with alarms (on a side thought you could sell new alarm sounds like someone saying "this is fine. Everything is fine") and then HUD problems, cross hair shake (like jump jets) problems, then speed penalties. all of these appear in the game already, everyone can cope with them when they occur.

But please note the question isn't on my suggestions just simply would it be a better system with a gradient of penalties before shutdown? Or is shutdown the only penalty that should be used?

If you don't think a gradient of penalties would improve the system let me know why. I can't understand your perspective if all you do is froth at the mouth

If you agree perhaps a suggestion on the types of penalties.

ps yes I think everyone knows about the TT heat penalties.

I think a single penalty to keep things basic and simple would be a positive for immersion and preventing mechs from constantly red-lining.

Something like, if you surpass 70-80% heat (example value) your mech receives a few blanket penalties which could include a standard deficit value (say a 10-20% reduction for example) in speed, agility (torso twist, arm movements, etc), a flicker HUD, and possibly others. (possibly a reduced recharge of the ED that in PTS even, but that's hypothetical as the system is not fully implemented and I'd recommend not including this one before the other, basic mech function affecting ones.)

The idea is similar to a combination of the TT penalties and Battletech lore fluff that could support immersion and reward player skill for heat control.

I personally am not a fan of the ammo cookoff during operational heat penalties. The only way I could support that would be surpassing 100% heat and having a chance to cookoff (low-mid but not impossible) while in override, and preventing it if the player is not in override and surpasses 100% triggering the auto-shutdown.

[Davison]

Given that there are no penalties short of shutdown, I would be all for progressive penalties across the heat scale. Nothing more to add.

[Greyhart]

I am not a massive fan of random cook off of ammo. I would like a system that says if you are over X you get this penalty and a handy marker on the heat indicator.

My view is cosmetic annoyances at low level. then progressing on to speed decreases that increase with heat whilst maintaining the visual and audio annoyances.

No one appears to have any massive objections.

[Greyhart]

I am going to add an idea here, which I am not sure about but might solve certain issues.

Heat should be applied before the weapon fires (would not be noticeable to a person would look like all happens at the same time). however if you go into mandatory shut down the shut down occurs before the firing and so you don't fire the weapons. To balance this if the shut down occurs the weapons don't create as much heat or total heat is capped.

e.g. mandatory shutdown is at 100% if you fire would bring the heat to 150% you shut down but don't fire and the heat is only taken to say 120%. like all the weapons warmed up and then the computer goes "oh no!" stops the process and shuts down.

thoughts? would make overheating even less appealing as there is no gain

[Karl Streiger]

you would not need ED or GH when a heat penalty is working.
You know the speed of a Mech with a single leg - congrats this is the speed you will be able to bring when your heat is at 75%

Don't consider heat alone
Every aspect should be influenced by heat, weapon cooldown, heat dissipation, mobility, sensor range, ecm range, AMS...

Even more important how settle the points were bad things happen.
I would strongly disagree to "fixed" points - at 30% heat you get this and at 50% heat you get that.
Make it constant - 33% reduced your Mech effectivity by 33%

Maybe you can add a "green" bar - or use the energy bar - as long as you waste heat doesn't exceed this bar everything is fine - but otherwise you really get waste heat.

So firing 7 ER-Large Laser on your DireWolf might work - or 6 PPC on your Stalker - but with mere 10% dissipation rate and mobility you are as good as dead.

Greyhart, on 26 August 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

I am going to add an idea here, which I am not sure about but might solve certain issues.

Heat should be applied before the weapon fires (would not be noticeable to a person would look like all happens at the same time). however if you go into mandatory shut down the shut down occurs before the firing and so you don't fire the weapons. To balance this if the shut down occurs the weapons don't create as much heat or total heat is capped.

e.g. mandatory shutdown is at 100% if you fire would bring the heat to 150% you shut down but don't fire and the heat is only taken to say 120%. like all the weapons warmed up and then the computer goes "oh no!" stops the process and shuts down.

thoughts? would make overheating even less appealing as there is no gain

The forecast is a great idea too

Edited by Karl Streiger, 26 August 2016 - 02:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Greyhart, on 26 August 2016 - 01:11 AM, said:

I am not a massive fan of random cook off of ammo. I would like a system that says if you are over X you get this penalty and a handy marker on the heat indicator.

My view is cosmetic annoyances at low level. then progressing on to speed decreases that increase with heat whilst maintaining the visual and audio annoyances.

No one appears to have any massive objections.

Thing is Ammo does sometimes cook off. Part of managing heat was to avoid reaching that level of easy-bake.

[Stone Wall]

Pahrias, on 25 August 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

Yes i feel those changes would improve game play, even if only as an extra visual warning of heat build up. If i remember correctly, MW2:Mercs had a system very similar, with your HUD practically disappearing at high temperatures. Might have been MW3 thinking about it.
Another idea, add a chance to cook off ammo in the 95%+ region, excepting gauss, but that could melt thus depriving you of ammo. it would have to incorporate some kind of multiplier VS time spent at 95% but should work.
for the laser builds, the excess heat could add a chance to destroy the next energy weapon fired. again, would only happen if you stayed at extreme temps for long times. add an element of risk that isn't instant death. or instant legged.

It was MechWarrior 3. High heat and also getting hit with ER PPCs would also scramble your HUD. I would love that feature in MWO.

[Greyhart]

Joseph Mallan, on 26 August 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Thing is Ammo does sometimes cook off. Part of managing heat was to avoid reaching that level of easy-bake.

To be clear. I am decidedly not bothered either way on ammo explosions. I would if it came to say I dislike randomness over certainty, that is the extent of the opinion on ammo explosions.

Progressive penalties seems to be an area that the community is in general agreement on. I would've thought it was an easy win for PGI to implement them at least on the test server. A lot of them don't even add anything that is not already in the game.

[LordNothing]

too strong against ppcs, too weak against lasers. missiles and ballistics feel about right.

[Khobai]

Quote

Heat should be applied before the weapon fires

nope. that makes absolutely no sense. how is heat being generated if the weapon hasnt fired? heat time travel?

heat should generate at the same time the weapon fires because the weapon firing is whats generating the heat.

thats basic thermodynamics.



and instead of energy draw what this game needs is a fixed heat scale and actual heat scale penalties.

mechs should have a heat buffer based on how many heatsinks they have. if you exceed your heat buffer youd start suffering heat penalties like reduced movement speed, reduced weapon cooldown, reduced sensor effectiveness, etc...

Edited by Khobai, 26 August 2016 - 03:47 AM.

[kapusta11]

Current heat system has one major penalty that everyone seems to ignore - it's reduced sustained damage output. If you're so bad that you can't exploit that disadvantage of your enemy that's your own problem.

[Steve Pryde]

El Bandito, on 25 August 2016 - 01:36 AM, said:

Yep, progressive heat penalties, such as the one you have described would add more immersion to this game.

The problem ist that I don't believe that PGI can do that because they haven't just the knowledge for it. It's just too much work for them, a "simple" second energy draw bar is way less work for them. But yeah, a system like from Greyhart would be just the best. Easy understandable, even for beginner. Let a pilot do a big hot alpha strike but then he barely can move into cover because he so slow that he even can't move his mech and his hud and crosshair is unuseable for the next alpha that brings you 100% into shutdown.

[Greyhart]

Khobai, on 26 August 2016 - 03:40 AM, said:

nope. that makes absolutely no sense. how is heat being generated if the weapon hasnt fired? heat time travel?

heat should generate at the same time the weapon fires because the weapon firing is whats generating the heat.

thats basic thermodynamics.



and instead of energy draw what this game needs is a fixed heat scale and actual heat scale penalties.

mechs should have a heat buffer based on how many heatsinks they have. if you exceed your heat buffer youd start suffering heat penalties like reduced movement speed, reduced weapon cooldown, reduced sensor effectiveness, etc...

I don't want to defend the idea. as it was just that an interesting idea.

however when heat occurs depends on what causes the heat.

Now you press the button to fire. That sends a request to the reactor and to the weapon. The reactor has to draw the power before the weapon fires and if it is the reactor that causes the heat then that occurs before the weapon is fired.

If it is not the reactor causing heat: In a laser the heat build up likely occurs before the laser/ppc is discharged. In ballistics/ missiles the heat would occur as the munition leaves the barrel and by the ignition of any chemical propellant.

Equally the computer would calculate and predict heat and so could step in before to stop over heating.

anyway I am not advocating the system. I just like ideas that make you go hmmm.

Of course this thought rather begs the question why shut down the entire mech if it would be better just to stop the pilot causing heat damage by the computer not firing weapons if it would cause damage to the mech (and therefore allow the mech time to retreat rather than be a piñata). Because Space Magic i suppose.

Edited by Greyhart, 26 August 2016 - 04:07 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

however when heat occurs depends on what causes the heat.

the weapon firing causes the heat

the weapon doesnt draw power from the reactor until it fires

so heat should not be generated until the weapon fires

and a mech should not shutdown until after its weapons fire

Edited by Khobai, 26 August 2016 - 04:15 AM.