46 replies to this topic

[Dreammirror]

As an old school tabletop battletech player, who stopped at 3060, and didnt get into mwo until a year and a half ago, I am wondering: why is tthe mwo game so different? Ghost heat, endless quirks, modules, etc to promote a level playing field? Tabletop was not about being fair and balanced in a tactical sence. Clan Timberwolves could lay waste to any inner sphere heavy, andrightfully so...in a fair fight. But that was the whole poit. "Fair fight". Clans were held back by a strick honor code (which mwo needs badly), and the IS fought with higher numbers, combined arms, and dirty. Mwo seems more like call of duty with giant robots, then the game of old. Dont get me wrong, i love shooting up mechs as much as the next players, but mwo could stand to look back at mechwarrior 3&4 for a better play style. With an ingame & enforced honor code for clan players, you wouldnt need all the balancing issues drama. Just a rant I guess, but thanks for reading. I would be glad to discuss this further if anyone wants to offer constuctive feedback, otherwise the soapbox is free again.

Edited by Dreammirror, 25 August 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[knight-of-ni]

Two things, and I'm going to keep them short:
- Battletech is turn based, while MWO is a realtime first person shooter.
- MWO design decision to attempt to make all mechs, from all sizes and factions, to be fun to play. Unlike previous MWO titles, a light mech isn't just something you start the game with and try to upgrade out of as soon as possible.

Combine that with a lack of any kind of content, what are we fighting for, etc and I can certainly understand how this could feel like any other first person shooter out there. This is also my biggest criticism of this game.

Harebrained Schemes has an upcoming Battletech title, which fits closer to what you have described. You should check it out if you have not already.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Dreammirror, on 25 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

As an old school tabletop battletech player, who stopped at 3060, and didnt get into mwo until a year and a half ago, I am wondering: why is tthe mwo game so different? Ghost heat, endless quirks, modules, etc to promote a level playing field? Tabletop was not about being fair and balanced in a tactical sence. Clan Timberwolves could lay waste to any inner sphere heavy, andrightfully so...in a fair fight. But that was the whole poit. "Fair fight". Clans were held back by a strick honor code (which mwo needs badly), and the IS fought with higher numbers, combined arms, and dirty. Mwo seems more like call of duty with giant robots, then the game of old. Dont get me wrong, i love shooting up mechs as much as the next players, but mwo could stand to look back at mechwarrior 3&4 for a better play style. With an ingame & enforced honor code for clan players, you wouldnt need all the balancing issues drama. Just a rant I guess, but thanks for reading. I would be glad to discuss this further if anyone wants to offer constuctive feedback, otherwise the soapbox is free again.

Straight up I know what you're saying... but it really comes down to this.

There is no honor in Online games. And no way to actually enforce Clan moral's and engagement rules.

I wish there was man, I really do, but as an old guard in the whole "honorable play" side of things, I've been told since around 2004 that "Honor is lame" in online games, you fight to win, and nothing else.

Also, in the modern gameplay environment, people just cannot handle that sometimes, some things are better than others, there must be "ULTIMATE BALANCE!" at all times.

[AnTi90d]

Dreammirror, on 25 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

why is tthe mwo game so different? Ghost heat

That exists because, unlike all previous Battletech/Mechwarrior games.. PGI gave all the mechs insanely high heat caps. In BT, your heat cap is 30.. In MWO, most mechs run with 90+ heat caps. So, in BT.. if you have 20 double heat sinks.. you can't fire 3LPL and 4+ML unless you like frying your pilot like an egg.. In MWO, it's commonplace.

Instead of lowering the heat cap or rebalancing weapons, PGI just likes to make up bandaid solutions to cover up past mistakes.

[ScrapIron Prime]

AnTi90d, on 25 August 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

That exists because, unlike all previous Battletech/Mechwarrior games.. PGI gave all the mechs insanely high heat caps. In BT, your heat cap is 30.. In MWO, most mechs run with 90+ heat caps. So, in BT.. if you have 20 double heat sinks.. you can't fire 3LPL and 4+ML unless you like frying your pilot like an egg...

Uh, yeah you can. 3 LPL is 27 heat, 4 ML is 12 heat. If you fire and run, you overheat by one. Ooo, shudder.

No, the big difference between this and tabletop is that players can run whatever mech they like in casual play. 12 V 12 without regard to your mech. No battle value, no house mech restrictions, no 10 clan vs 12 IS, nothing.

[MauttyKoray]

Dreammirror, on 25 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

As an old school tabletop battletech player, who stopped at 3060, and didnt get into mwo until a year and a half ago, I am wondering: why is tthe mwo game so different? Ghost heat, endless quirks, modules, etc to promote a level playing field? Tabletop was not about being fair and balanced in a tactical sence. Clan Timberwolves could lay waste to any inner sphere heavy, andrightfully so...in a fair fight. But that was the whole poit. "Fair fight". Clans were held back by a strick honor code (which mwo needs badly), and the IS fought with higher numbers, combined arms, and dirty. Mwo seems more like call of duty with giant robots, then the game of old. Dont get me wrong, i love shooting up mechs as much as the next players, but mwo could stand to look back at mechwarrior 3&4 for a better play style. With an ingame & enforced honor code for clan players, you wouldnt need all the balancing issues drama. Just a rant I guess, but thanks for reading. I would be glad to discuss this further if anyone wants to offer constuctive feedback, otherwise the soapbox is free again.

Biggest thing I have to interject here is your Clan/IS and code of honor thing is a huge part of the issue. If I remember correctly, the TT also had this issue due to 'capture clan mechs' piloted by IS units. Think of Clans vs Inner Sphere (10v12) all in Clan mechs but the IS not being limited by any sort of code of honor. Yeah...Clans would have been utterly destroyed.

Being a video game, no one is imposed upon by a fictitious code of conduct like the clans unless they do so voluntarily, so you have to balance the game accordingly knowing that fact.

Quirks were originally intended to be literally their namesake... 'Quirks' to be applied to mechs to promote the unique traits or loadouts they had through lore/fluff or stock configurations/intended roles. However they went too far and began using them as a balance mechanic which on top of the already imbalanced core gameplay, has cause a lot of balance problems and abusable instances of gameplay/mechanics.

[El Bandito]

Dreammirror, on 25 August 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

With an ingame & enforced honor code for clan players, you wouldnt need all the balancing issues drama.

And just how do you suppose PGI can actually enforce this?

[Davison]

El Bandito, on 25 August 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

And just how do you suppose PGI can actually enforce this?

You're going to hate this.

Kill assists and combined fire of any kind would need to be heavily penalized. Killing blows without it being a solo kill would be worth less. Essentially, massing fire would have to become so anathema to your C-bills that nobody would even consider it on the Clan end... As for other possible workarounds and ideas, I burped all those out way the heck back in beta, so I'll leave it here as a simple, if rage-bait level, answer.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 25 August 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

And just how do you suppose PGI can actually enforce this?

I would roughly "simulate" this by giving the IS team-oriented sensors/data communications (similar to what we have now) and Clans more individualistic ones (e.g. faster sensors, more detailed target information, but no sharing). It will just require a bit of imagination and creativity on PGI's part, though.

Secondly, tailor the reward system for such.

Edited by Mystere, 25 August 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[Zolaz]

Dont think of this as a Mechwarrior title or a Battletech simulator ... this is PGI's Big Stompy Robit Game. As a Battletech fan, once you realize that things like Lore and the Battlemech universe dont matter here, the happier you will be.

[topgun505]

Part of the reason is instant perfect pinpoint convergence. All your damage hitting the target in one spot, as opposed to CBT where all hit locations are chosen randomly. So they have to increase armor and quirks to compensate so mechs don't melt in a single hit.

Oh. Wait. They still do. Um....

[El Bandito]

Davison, on 25 August 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

You're going to hate this.

Kill assists and combined fire of any kind would need to be heavily penalized. Killing blows without it being a solo kill would be worth less. Essentially, massing fire would have to become so anathema to your C-bills that nobody would even consider it on the Clan end... As for other possible workarounds and ideas, I burped all those out way the heck back in beta, so I'll leave it here as a simple, if rage-bait level, answer.

Mystere, on 25 August 2016 - 11:34 AM, said:

I would roughly "simulate" this by giving the IS team-oriented sensors/data communications (similar to what we have now) and Clans more individualistic ones (e.g. faster sensors, more detailed target information, but no sharing). It will just require a bit of imagination and creativity on PGI's part, though.

Secondly, tailor the reward system for such.

And what happens when players who had already amassed hundred of millions of C-Bills don't given a damn about rewards and play un-Clanlike with clearly superior Clan mechs?

[Mystere]

Davison, on 25 August 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

You're going to hate this.

Kill assists and combined fire of any kind would need to be heavily penalized. Killing blows without it being a solo kill would be worth less. Essentially, massing fire would have to become so anathema to your C-bills that nobody would even consider it on the Clan end... As for other possible workarounds and ideas, I burped all those out way the heck back in beta, so I'll leave it here as a simple, if rage-bait level, answer.

"Penalize" is not the word I would use. Instead, Clan rewards should be "weighed heavily more towards solo kills and KMDD".

Sometimes, "presentation" does work.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 25 August 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

And what happens when players who had already amassed hundred of millions of C-Bills don't given a damn about rewards and play un-Clanlike with clearly superior Clan mechs?

That's why mine was already a two-pronged approach.

I haven't even touched on things such as asymmetric game modes and victory conditions.

[Appogee]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 25 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

There is no honor in Online games. And no way to actually enforce Clan moral's and engagement rules.

Actually, I reckon there could have been done, in the following way...

12 v 10: easy enough to code, no explanation needed.

Clan players get very very significant CBill rewards for fighting under the rules of Zellbriggen. The first Clan warrior to 'declare' an IS Mech to be their target - via a special Clan targeting button - is given the opportunity to battle that enemy one on one. That the target is 'declared and owned' is shown in the HUD of other Clan players - a flashing dorito, perhaps.

If a Clan player solo kills their 'declared and owned' target, they get the huge Zellbriggen reward multiplier t their CBills, plus some faction Reputation Points.

However, if the targeted unit is damaged by other Clan units, or the Clan attacker moves behind cover or out of weapon range of the IS opponent, or uses strikes, then the Zellbriggen bonus isn't paid. Instead, the Clan warriors who broke Zellbriggen - attacking someone else's target, or moving out of range - suffer a CBills penalty and a Reputation Points penalty.

This would make for some interesting challenges and choices in use of IS vs Clan Mechs.

This could have been coded if it had been designed in at the outset. Instead PGI opted for the easier solution, which is to produce 300 versions of vanilla.

Edited by Appogee, 25 August 2016 - 11:55 AM.

[Windsaw]

To me MWO does not feel like Battletech because it is mainly too fast and too precise.

With too fast I don't necessarily the speed of the mechs (although it is too high in general) but that the speed does not anything but moving from A to B. You don't get blackouts from the acceleration, you don't get concussions or worse when you run headlong against a wall at 150 kph, you can make U-Turns that seem physically impossible.
As a result this doesn't feel like piloting machines thens of tons heavy but stuff that is light as a feather.
Oh, and the rate of fire is insanely high compared to what it seems like in the books.

As for too precise: Well, we have perfect aiming and perfect convergence, even when it should not be physically be possible, like fixed mounted torso weapons. We have little secondary effects like equipment malfunctions except UAC jams and total destruction. We have not heat effects, no sensor glitches or partial limb malfunctions (like you would drift to a side or one weapon does not align with your focus anymore).

All of this is so very un-Battletech like.

Oh, and I almost forgot: Battlemechs are cheap. They are not the insanely expensive lostech treasures, no. Most players can call dozens of them their own. Losing a fight does not mean anything.

Edited by Windsaw, 25 August 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[Rock Roller]

Appogee, on 25 August 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

Actually, I reckon there could have been done, in the following way...

12 v 10: easy enough to code, no explanation needed.

Clan players get very very significant CBill rewards for fighting under the rules of Zellbriggen. When they enemy is encountered, the first Clan warrior to 'declare' an IS Mech via a special Clan targeting button, gets the opportunity to battle that enemy one on one. The fact that the target is 'declared and owned' is shown in the HUD (different coloured diamond perhaps) of the other Clan Players.

If a Clan player solo kills their designated kill it they get the huge Zellbriggen reward multiplier.

However, if the targeted unit is damaged by other Clan units, or the Clan attacker moves behind cover or out of weapon range of the IS opponent, or uses strikes, then the Zellbriggen bonus isn't paid. Instead, the Clan warriors who broke Zellbriggen - attacking someone else's target, or moving out of range - instead suffer a CBills penalty. And maybe a Reputation Points penalty within their Clan progression ladder, too.

This could have been coded if it had been designed in at the outset. Instead PGI opted for the easier solution, which is to produce 300 versions of vanilla.

Only point that I want to make is in regards to the 10 v 12. I do agree this could work in some ways but it introduces a huge issue as well. PUG drops have to go down faction lines with this format. From a game designers stand point this greatly complicates match making. In many faction games often one side is grossly overpopulated. This leads to huge issues. One side has access to players but no opponents. The other side struggles to find groups. With a realitivly small player base this is even a more pressing issue.

This is in my opinion the main reason that PGI can't take this route. I have played games with hour plus "Q" times. This would be a death sentence for the game. The flip side is that if you don't have a purely faction breakdown and you can't I force lore based player (clan) behavior you have to equalize the factions.

[Appogee]

Rock Roller, on 25 August 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

Only point that I want to make is in regards to the 10 v 12. I do agree this could work in some ways but it introduces a huge issue as well. PUG drops have to go down faction lines with this format. From a game designers stand point this greatly complicates match making. In many faction games often one side is grossly overpopulated. This leads to huge issues. One side has access to players but no opponents. The other side struggles to find groups. With a realitivly small player base this is even a more pressing issue.

Well, I think one reason there's a small player base is because PGI dumbed down Mech fighting to 300 shades of vanilla. People wouldn't have grown tired of endless same-same death matches, if there was an opportunity to experience the differences and nuances of combat as a Clanner.

But even so, the division of PUGs into Clan vs IS wouldn't have had such a major impact, as there could still be IS vs IS battles (12 v 12) and Clan vs Clan (10 v 10). Worst case scenario, it could continue to create mixed matches if there literally weren't enough of one faction available.

So there'd be no downside vs what we have today, and a lot of potential upside when the player population was sufficient to sustain it.

Edited by Appogee, 25 August 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

As others have mentioned its a FPS, and more based around old Mechwarrior titles than Battletech.

The main reason it is what it is are two fold.

First is this is P.G.I's first real attempt at a worthwhile product, unless your really into fishing sims and Hunting Zombie bears in the woods, they did the PvP part of borderlands, not a very inspiring game from what people have told me, and I've read

Second they chose not to have 10v12 so they balanced the game for the reason or that and so that people who want to play I.S mechs can be more than just target practice.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 25 August 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

And what happens when players who had already amassed hundred of millions of C-Bills don't given a damn about rewards and play un-Clanlike with clearly superior Clan mechs?

Not that I am agreeing or disagreeing with the premise, but how about when you as a clanner get so many assists accrued, it puts a bounty on your head, that is posted with your dorito, that grows with every dishonorable act? Pretty soon that player will be focus fired and insta killed pretty much every match.

Could even spawn a new game mode "defend the honorless surat" for the blue team.

Of course this would require strict faction separation (which should have been a thing to begin with), but hey, it'd be worth a giggle or two.