51 replies to this topic

[Gurren913]

Can we do a time-skip to FedCom civil war era so IS mechs have weapons that can compete with clans? This could also facilitate the removal of quirks and make it easier for newer players.

[Metus regem]

Gurren913, on 26 August 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Can we do a time-skip to FedCom civil war era so IS mechs have weapons that can compete with clans? This could also facilitate the removal of quirks and make it easier for newer players.

Let's not...

FedCom civil war era comes with it's own balance nightmares....

Light Fusion Engine, 2 slots each ST, .75% off the weight of a Standard Engine = bye bye Standard Engines.

RAC/2 and RAC/5 (Rotary Auto Cannons), how do you make them shoot? 2-6 round bursts of 2 or 5 damage shots each?

Light AC/2 and Light AC/5 = bye bye AC/2 and AC/5

Heavy Gauss Rifle / Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle = Why take an AC/20 when both of these do more damage,out range and are only 2 heat....

MRM's = Rockets for the Rocket god! No seriously, these are unguided rockets... that launch in 20, 30 or 40 rocket salvos

That's just the IS side of things, not even touching ammo switching weapons....

Heavy Lasers = wee! more damage for a hotter weapon

Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles = Burst fire Gauss Rifles in 20, 30 or 40 damage versions!

That just some of the Clan side things, again not touching ammo switching weapons....

[Battlemaster56]

Metus regem, on 26 August 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

Let's not...

FedCom civil war era comes with it's own balance nightmares....

Light Fusion Engine, 2 slots each ST, .75% off the weight of a Standard Engine = bye bye Standard Engines.

RAC/2 and RAC/5 (Rotary Auto Cannons), how do you make them shoot? 2-6 round bursts of 2 or 5 damage shots each?

Light AC/2 and Light AC/5 = bye bye AC/2 and AC/5

Heavy Gauss Rifle / Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle = Why take an AC/20 when both of these do more damage,out range and are only 2 heat....

MRM's = Rockets for the Rocket god! No seriously, these are unguided rockets... that launch in 20, 30 or 40 rocket salvos

That's just the IS side of things, not even touching ammo switching weapons....

Heavy Lasers = wee! more damage for a hotter weapon

Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles = Burst fire Gauss Rifles in 20, 30 or 40 damage versions!

That just some of the Clan side things, again not touching ammo switching weapons....

I rather be in the FedCom civil war era than just pre Turkiyadd over and over and also it brings fresh content on the boat. And we can't bring mechs that comes out with new tech (Looking at MADIIC).

[mogs01gt]

Gurren913, on 26 August 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

Can we do a time-skip to FedCom civil war era so IS mechs have weapons that can compete with clans? This could also facilitate the removal of quirks and make it easier for newer players.

Remove all quirks, make all weapons the same on both sides..Make balances through class roles or through chassis that have inherit design flaws due to MWO's game mechanics.

Edited by mogs01gt, 26 August 2016 - 12:29 PM.

[Imperius]

You'll find a few voices here in the forums that scream for change but are afraid of change. I hope HBS gives them a new home to stay in the past and let this game finally move on and grow.

[Hunka Junk]

So, time skip ahead and have to rework all the mechs and their equipment?

That's like asking for new content.

So the answer is no.

[DAYLEET]

Imperius, on 26 August 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

You'll find a few voices here in the forums that scream for change but are afraid of change. I hope HBS gives them a new home to stay in the past and let this game finally move on and grow.

We want content, not another arm race that will be a nightmare to balance. Most people seem to agree battlemech arent content anymore, back when the clan wave 1 released Russ had to say thats 32mech were a lot of content when people werent happy that nothing else was being done. Weapons never were content just like balance change.

Now, if you want to bring era game mode along that timeline jump i bet more people would listen.

[Gurren913]

RAC's would probably work like clan ultras right now.

Heavy Gauss is 18 ******* tons just from the weapon's bulk alone and 5-8 shots per ton of ammo at a bit more than AC/10 range.

MRM's will just be more challenging/more rewarding SRM's

Heavy lasers will be nigh useless because of the heat/range disadvantages.

HAG's are never used in the PC games because they are super OP, but even the lightest of them are 10 tons and 6 slots with only 6 shots per ton.

But what really needs to come out are the ultra and Hyper IS AC's; 36 damage UAC/20 anyone?

[Imperius]

DAYLEET, on 26 August 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

We want content, not another arm race that will be a nightmare to balance. Most people seem to agree battlemech arent content anymore, back when the clan wave 1 released Russ had to say thats 32mech were a lot of content when people werent happy that nothing else was being done. Weapons never were content just like balance change.

Now, if you want to bring era game mode along that timeline jump i bet more people would listen.

No there is no timeline in MWO there never has been. We don't need to add another "bucket"! You can just quietly move to HBS "people's lord and saviors" (though not mechwarrior and a completely different game) you can stay there and the clans will never bother you may all your dreams of living the past come true.

[Metus regem]

Gurren913, on 26 August 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

RAC's would probably work like clan ultras right now.

Then they will completely outclass anything else in the game. Why take a UAC/5 or UAC/10 for the IS when you can take a RAC/5 that is only 10t and can do up to a 25 damage burst fire?

Quote

Heavy Gauss is 18 ******* tons just from the weapon's bulk alone and 5-8 shots per ton of ammo at a bit more than AC/10 range.

Standard Heavy Gauss Rifle is 60m short of Gauss rifle range, 600m vs 660m of the standard Gauss Rifle, that still puts it a good 150m past optimal range of the AC/10....

Heavy Gauss Rifle TT stats:
18t
11 crits
2 heat
25/20/10 (short/medium/long) damage
4 shots/ton

Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle TT stats:

20t
11 crits
2 heat
22 damage
570m optimal range, still better than an AC/10 by a good 120m
4 shots/ton

Quote

MRM's will just be more challenging/more rewarding SRM's

Not going to argue that one, but they would have bad spread, if you think LB-10's are bad, these will be worse....

Quote

Heavy lasers will be nigh useless because of the heat/range disadvantages.

Doubtful, more punch, is more punch. From TT for the Heavy Large Laser vs cERML:

Heavy Large Laser:

16 Damage
18 heat
3 crits
4t
450m optimal range (15 hex long)

cERML:

7 damage
5 heat
1 crit
1t
450m optimal range (15 hexes)


For MWO purposes, it'd make a hell of a gun for a 1E or 2 E hard point....

Quote

But what really needs to come out are the ultra and Hyper IS AC's; 36 damage UAC/20 anyone?

The IS UAC/10 and UAC/20, how should they fire? there is precedent for them to fire a single shot on double tap, just like the IS UAC/5, but they were copied from Clan Tech, so should they fire in a burst? If they are single shot, they will be OP as anything could be in MWO, but if they are burst fire, how should their damage be divided up, so that they are not just out right inferior to Clan versions?

[Battlemaster56]

Gurren913, on 26 August 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

RAC's would probably work like clan ultras right now.

Heavy Gauss is 18 ******* tons just from the weapon's bulk alone and 5-8 shots per ton of ammo at a bit more than AC/10 range.

MRM's will just be more challenging/more rewarding SRM's

Heavy lasers will be nigh useless because of the heat/range disadvantages.

HAG's are never used in the PC games because they are super OP, but even the lightest of them are 10 tons and 6 slots with only 6 shots per ton.

But what really needs to come out are the ultra and Hyper IS AC's; 36 damage UAC/20 anyone?

Well Heavy lasers would become a goto brawling weaponand most likely challenge cMPL and cSPL to the point obsoleting them both.

Also theirs the xpulse lasers for IS that challenge clan pulse lasers in the range department.
Clans get er pulse lasers( putting money they would be rarely used) and streak lrms

[Lykaon]

mogs01gt, on 26 August 2016 - 12:28 PM, said:

Remove all quirks, make all weapons the same on both sides..Make balances through class roles or through chassis that have inherit design flaws due to MWO's game mechanics.

Should have just stuck with the succession wars setting initially planned.

All sides use the same tech base and the only tech is 3025 TRO.

[Metus regem]

Battlemaster56, on 26 August 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

Well Heavy lasers would become a goto brawling weaponand most likely challenge cMPL and cSPL to the point obsoleting them both.

Also theirs the xpulse lasers for IS that challenge clan pulse lasers in the range department.
Clans get er pulse lasers( putting money they would be rarely used) and streak lrms

Large X-pluse is bad.... just bad...

14 heat
9 damage
450m range
7t
2 crits

Medium X-Pulse and Small X-Pulse are good, but the medium is getting a bit hot for my taste at 6 heat for 6 damage...

[Battlemaster56]

Metus regem, on 26 August 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

Large X-pluse is bad.... just bad...

14 heat
9 damage
450m range
7t
2 crits

Medium X-Pulse and Small X-Pulse are good, but the medium is getting a bit hot for my taste at 6 heat for 6 damage...

Alright didn't knew Large Xpulses were bad, I tried understanding how to translate tt stats into mwo, I may try again sometime in the future.

[Pjwned]

I've been saying that we need more tech for a while now, the game is stagnant and there are serious problems for a lot of mechs because they don't have the tech available to not be pieces of crap, not to mention that Inner Sphere needs tech like the light fusion engine to balance things out.

Metus regem, on 26 August 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

Let's not...

FedCom civil war era comes with it's own balance nightmares....

Hm...

Quote

Light Fusion Engine, 2 slots each ST, .75% off the weight of a Standard Engine = bye bye Standard Engines.

Not going to get into it heavily but if you think saving 25% weight would invalidate the STD engine, despite the drawbacks it has, then you're wrong. Obviously the LFE would see quite a bit of use, and that's kind of the point, but it doesn't invalidate a damn thing.

Now if you say the Clan XL engine invalidates the STD engine, then yes unfortunately that is true, but there's not much to do about it.

Quote

RAC/2 and RAC/5 (Rotary Auto Cannons), how do you make them shoot? 2-6 round bursts of 2 or 5 damage shots each?

I presume they would both jam up pretty frequently, and they are both quite heavy and bulky as well as having reduced range. If they were so problematic though then we could just skip the RACs and it wouldn't be the end of the world.

Quote

Light AC/2 and Light AC/5 = bye bye AC/2 and AC/5

Not really, no, the long range of both AC2 and AC5 are useful in the right builds, and giving up that range (and presumably both would have decreased shot velocity too) is not always the right choice. Obviously the light ACs would be popular because not every build needs the range and trading range for lower weight would be pretty attractive, but AC2 and AC5 would still be available for the more skirmisher/sniper oriented builds and there's nothing wrong with that.

Quote

Heavy Gauss Rifle / Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle = Why take an AC/20 when both of these do more damage,out range and are only 2 heat....

Probably because AC20 would still have more DPS and still weigh much less. AC20 is a fantastic brawling weapon and it always will be.

Quote

MRM's = Rockets for the Rocket god! No seriously, these are unguided rockets... that launch in 20, 30 or 40 rocket salvos

I don't even see a problem with MRMs, missile options are sorely lacking and firing a bunch of missiles that would spread damage all over the place with a max range of 450m hardly seems unbalanced.

Quote

That's just the IS side of things, not even touching ammo switching weapons....

Given the fate of the LBX ammo switching I doubt that's anything to be concerned about, but even then different ammo types are not that scary.

Quote

Heavy Lasers = wee! more damage for a hotter weapon

Right, by more heat you mean nearly double the heat and you forgot decreased range too.

Quote

Hyper Assault Gauss Rifles = Burst fire Gauss Rifles in 20, 30 or 40 damage versions!

Burst fire would not make them all that scary, not to mention how much more heat they generate and all of the HAGs are still quite heavy & bulky; but again if they really were such a problem then they could be skipped too.

[Metus regem]

Battlemaster56, on 26 August 2016 - 01:43 PM, said:

Alright didn't knew Large Xpulses were bad, I tried understanding how to translate tt stats into mwo, I may try again sometime in the future.

Well for the most part, PGI took the stats 1:1 from TT to MWO, then tweaked as needed..

For example, in TT the Large Laser is:

8 Damage
8 Heat
2 crits
5t

In MWO the Large Laser is:

9 damage
7 heat
2 crits
5t

in TT the IS-LPL:

9 damage
10 heat
2 crits
7t
300m range

TT Clan LPL:

10 Damage
10 Heat
2 crits
6t
600m range

MWO IS-LPL:

11 damage
7 heat
7t
2 crits
365m range

MWO cLPL:

13 damage
10 heat
6t
2 crtis
600m range

[Metus regem]

Pjwned, on 26 August 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

I've been saying that we need more tech for a while now, the game is stagnant and there are serious problems for a lot of mechs because they don't have the tech available to not be pieces of crap, not to mention that Inner Sphere needs tech like the light fusion engine to balance things out.



Hm...



Not going to get into it heavily but if you think saving 25% weight would invalidate the STD engine, despite the drawbacks it has, then you're wrong. Obviously the LFE would see quite a bit of use, and that's kind of the point, but it doesn't invalidate a damn thing.

Now if you say the Clan XL engine invalidates the STD engine, then yes unfortunately that is true, but there's not much to do about it.

I disagree with this, why use a standard engine, when you can save 25% of the weight, outside of a few mechs, I can't see much of a reason not to use the LFE over a standard engine. I mean look at a 400 series engine, 59.5t standard, or 44.6t (likely rounded down to 44.5t) for a LFE, that would need both ST's to be gone before death, but at that point on most (read 95%) of the mechs in the game you are already combat ineffective at that point. I mean think about a Hunchback that could run a LFE, still pack an AC/20 and have an extra 4t left over after moving upto a 250 LFE from the 200 series standard.

[Pjwned]

Metus regem, on 26 August 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

I disagree with this, why use a standard engine, when you can save 25% of the weight, outside of a few mechs, I can't see much of a reason not to use the LFE over a standard engine. I mean look at a 400 series engine, 59.5t standard, or 44.6t (likely rounded down to 44.5t) for a LFE, that would need both ST's to be gone before death, but at that point on most (read 95%) of the mechs in the game you are already combat ineffective at that point. I mean think about a Hunchback that could run a LFE, still pack an AC/20 and have an extra 4t left over after moving upto a 250 LFE from the 200 series standard.

Not every build on every mech is going to want to deal with engine damage penalties from side torso loss (as well as 2 extra crit slots in each torso, which is fairly minor really but still notable) in order to save only 25% weight, which would generally (but not exclusively) be large assault mechs; especially so for mechs with a low engine cap like Stalkers and Highlanders.

You give me that Hunchback example though and my response is...yeah, not surprising that a medium mech would want a lighter, faster engine to go with the AC20 so that they don't move like molasses compared to the STD 200 engine that it's otherwise forced to use. Obviously the LFE would open up new opportunities for various mechs/builds, and again that's kind of the point, so you're going to need to do more than cherrypick examples to demonstrate how the LFE would more or less invalidate the STD engine.

Edited by Pjwned, 27 August 2016 - 02:23 PM.

[CanadianCyrus]

Metus regem, on 26 August 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

I disagree with this, why use a standard engine, when you can save 25% of the weight, outside of a few mechs, I can't see much of a reason not to use the LFE over a standard engine. I mean look at a 400 series engine, 59.5t standard, or 44.6t (likely rounded down to 44.5t) for a LFE, that would need both ST's to be gone before death, but at that point on most (read 95%) of the mechs in the game you are already combat ineffective at that point. I mean think about a Hunchback that could run a LFE, still pack an AC/20 and have an extra 4t left over after moving upto a 250 LFE from the 200 series standard.

It's an option, and options aren't bad as IS are severely lacking. Does the LFE invalidate the XL engine? Not for most lights and those builds that need the tonnage. Does the LFE invalidate the STD engine? Well it offers a better option when slots aren't an issue and losing speed with a side torso loss isn't a consideration. It all boils down to more builds and doesn't lead to IS cruising past Clan engines as the Clan XL still has the advantage even when compared to the LFE.

[Dirus Nigh]

How about we reset the time line to 3040. Remove all quirks. Leave the IS factions in the IS, and put the clans back in the clan worlds. Let IS and Clan fight over their own worlds in FW.