116 replies to this topic

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Tesunie, on 02 September 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Hence, if we are calling/suggesting the LTs removal, we also need to suggest a few replacements and why we feel they are more suitable for invasion impact than the LT is.

First step to solving a problem is to admit that you have one. Unfortunately, Russ still won't admit to his addiction to Long Tom.

Many threads have been made about the removal of long tom. Many suggestions in those threads as to what to replace it.

Me personally 3 possible solutions.
1. Ability to place UAV via overhead map
2. Ability to call in airstrikes/arty from the overhead map.
3 .Maybe you make "dumb" airstrikes "smart" airstrikes. Call in an airstrike, instead of targeting the ground where the smoke is, it targets the nearest enemy mech to the smoke.

Not game breaking changes. Opfor still has counters. Small cost for team using advantage (40,000 c-bills) which they'd probably use anyway.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

When we talk about scouting it seems like more than a few people think LT is the only advantage that makes a real difference on the battlefield.

Personally, I think the other "rewards" of scouting do matter and are certainly worth having on your side (or denying to the enemy)....Especially satellite sweep. I love to have it and hate when the other team does.... I'm sure PGI has the data on W/L rates when it is in play, which I would like to see. If it was less than a 65% win rate for the side that had SS I would be surprised. Combat ID really just reduces the element of surprise...which does remove some possible strategies ( 1st or 2nd wave light rushes, for example) the side who it's arrayed against can effectively use.

So, both provide an effective advantage... Point is, that I don't think even if they went the whole way (and removed LT), that would invalidate scouting and kill the scouting queues, It's not LT or bust (for scouting).

[MischiefSC]

Scouting gives your faction more cbills/XP for their wins in scouting and Invasion.

Boom.

Balancing 4v4 mediums will always be inferior. Scouting will always landslide. Giving it a significant impact on invasion will always be a terrible idea.

[Tesunie]

The Nerf Bat, on 02 September 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

First step to solving a problem is to admit that you have one. Unfortunately, Russ still won't admit to his addiction to Long Tom.

Many threads have been made about the removal of long tom. Many suggestions in those threads as to what to replace it.

Me personally 3 possible solutions.
1. Ability to place UAV via overhead map
2. Ability to call in airstrikes/arty from the overhead map.
3 .Maybe you make "dumb" airstrikes "smart" airstrikes. Call in an airstrike, instead of targeting the ground where the smoke is, it targets the nearest enemy mech to the smoke.

Not game breaking changes. Opfor still has counters. Small cost for team using advantage (40,000 c-bills) which they'd probably use anyway.

I actually find your suggestions odd.
1. Who would use this feature? Who gets to place the UAV, and how often? In a PUG type group, I see this not being used very often. I also see some ability to grief and abuse this against the team. (You know people would do so.)
2. Same as what I addressed to suggestion 1.
3. I feel this would be massively game breaking. Homing strikes? Hitting the closest enemy mech to the smoke? This could be greatly detrimental to gameplay. (In my opinion.)


I feel effects from scouting need to be effective, but not something controllable by a player. Affecting the turrets and gates would adhere to the thoughts of information gather and/or sabotage. The sensor sweep can be placing sensor pods over the battlefield, and seems fitting to this thought concept.

Of course, we can theorize as much as we wish... The point of having a dialogue/debate.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Tesunie, on 02 September 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

I actually find your suggestions odd.
1. Who would use this feature? Who gets to place the UAV, and how often? In a PUG type group, I see this not being used very often. I also see some ability to grief and abuse this against the team. (You know people would do so.)
2. Same as what I addressed to suggestion 1.
3. I feel this would be massively game breaking. Homing strikes? Hitting the closest enemy mech to the smoke? This could be greatly detrimental to gameplay. (In my opinion.)


I feel effects from scouting need to be effective, but not something controllable by a player. .

Odd? Militaries have been calling in strikes via map coordinates for over 100 years. What lurmboater wouldn't like to place a uav?

Teams could easily find a way to use either system. Not really interested in how pugs would use them.

1 Not sure what's hard to understand. Whoever has the modules on their mech. It's just a different way of placing items already in game.

At least there are counters to these. (Shoot down UAVS take cover ).

Gives you an advantage without being overkill.


3. May or may not be gamebreaking. It's still better than long tom. Especially since you can only use 1 at a time.

Just because you call an airstrike doesnt mean that mech will get hit. Unlike Long Tom which hits you no matter what obstacles are in the way. I'd rather face 48 airstrikes than 15 Long Toms.

Not controllable by a player? Most people don't want the game to play for (or against them). Automated death from above, no thanks.

Thses are just a few ideas. Not saying they are the greatest.
I

Edited by The Nerf Bat, 02 September 2016 - 03:25 PM.

[BearFlag]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 02 September 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

....Especially satellite sweep. I love to have it and hate when the other team does....

Many have suggested that there should be no NPC damage aspect...at all. I tend to agree. The end game to intel should be intel.

In another thread, I suggested extending the satty sweep. For example, for each percentage point above 75% add one second to the sweep duration. This would allow the advantaged team to successively lock enemy mechs to get their loadout and status. To see where they're going, what they're up to. Very important, I believe. It might just bring LRMs back to Invasion if they have time to lock and use them. It would be tempting to bring a boat if you know you have 20 second windows. This is real effect. The damage would be player v. player, not a Sky God. That damage can be mitigated by AMS, cover. Even if great damage isn't inflicted, a couple of LRM boats will disrupt your plan and force you to cover. Again, real effect but not instant death.

I know many don't like it. But I think Scout is a kick in the pants. I'd play it if there was no end game to it. It has problems. I mostly solo which means a loss rate of 60%. Streak Crows are just too potent for the mode. Even when I LFG drop with good pilots, more than one streak Crow is troublesome - not impossible, but dangerous if they're focusing. The easiest quick fix would be to try removing the 55 ton slot for Clan and see what it does to pug matches.

To put it in perspective, how would Scout change if a Kintaro could pack SSRM36 with a moduled 396 range and still do 110 kph? How about a Hunchback with 12 lasers of greater damage and range and the weight to fit them in? When the topic of balance comes up I usually argue that a game should be balanced at the match level, not the mech level. Mechs need to be different. Clan and IS mechs need to be different. Unfortunately, FW has minimal match balancing happening. A few drop deck tons for Invasion and nothing at all for Scout. For Invasion, this has proven disastrously inadequate since the real menace to balance is a twelve-man queuing up (either side) and PGI's "Call to Arms" all but inviting pugs to come and get stomped. Second only to Long Tom, "Call to Arms" creates a really bad dynamic. (I actually like Call to Arms but not as it is presently used.)

At least for Scout, tonnage might actually make a difference. Worth a try. If IS starts winning Scout too much, well, maybe a SSRM36 Griffin isn't such a bad idea (joking...).

[Tesunie]

The Nerf Bat, on 02 September 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

Odd? Militaries have been calling in strikes via map coordinates for over 100 years. What lurmboater wouldn't like to place a uav?

Teams could easily find a way to use either system. Not really interested in how pugs would use them.

1 Not sure what's hard to understand. Whoever has the modules on their mech. It's just a different way of placing items already in game.

At least there are counters to these. (Shoot down UAVS take cover ).

Gives you an advantage without being overkill.


3. May or may not be gamebreaking. It's still better than long tom. Especially since you can only use 1 at a time.

Just because you call an airstrike doesnt mean that mech will get hit. Unlike Long Tom which hits you no matter what obstacles are in the way. I'd rather face 48 airstrikes than 15 Long Toms.

Not controllable by a player? Most people don't want the game to play for (or against them). Automated death from above, no thanks.

Thses are just a few ideas. Not saying they are the greatest.
I

Remember: Real life facts don't effect science fiction mechanics.

I will state, I had a different thought on what you meant with your first concepts than what you seemed to have intended.

Besides that, for concept 1 and 2, I can see that kinda working, but I can also see some abuse to it as well. For a concept as to why, that could be upwards of 96 strikes that can be placed without the enemy needing to even be near you. Sure they have a cool down, but that could still be rather disturbing to game play. Might be balanced, and may be a concept that would need to be tested first before real opinions could be formed.

For concept 3... I'll just repeat that there could be 96 strikes that could home onto the nearest enemy mech (I'm presuming within a radius of the marker) that can't exactly be dodged nor avoided. This would probably be even more devastating than the LT. Just place the strike next to an enemy, and watch them dodge to no effect. Light mech? Might not be able to get away fast enough and instantly lose legs/die.

We need effects that benefit the team, but doesn't add additional damage controlled by the game (or player). They still need to be worth while, and the more "information", "enhanced preparations" or "sabotage" like effects they are, the better they match the flavor of the scout mode. We need mechanics that can't be abused by a player, but has meaning and impact, without having such an impact that it deteriorates the game play experience. But, it still needs to be worth the effort to keep players within the different game modes.

I see this as being buff effects on objectives and/or debuffs on defenses. Be that gate gens, O-gens, the Omega, turrets, etc. It matches the lower tiered effects, which is information on enemy composition and their location are periodic times during the match. (Even enhancing those effects wouldn't be a bad place to go...)

As I believe I've said before, this is of course in my opinion. I am by no means trying to dismiss your concepts. I'm just trying to debate how they would effect the game play if they did manage to get implemented.

BearFlag, on 02 September 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

The easiest quick fix would be to try removing the 55 ton slot for Clan and see what it does to pug matches.

Question for you. What happens then when the Huntsman comes into the game? It can have upwards of 8 missile slots, and it's a 50 ton mech. Would you suggest, to stop the steak-man ... ah... Hunts-streak? Streak-hunts? Whatever... What would be your suggested fix than? To remove (as a quick solution) all 50 ton mechs from the game mode too?

I would like to insert that the Shadowhawk was in cannon a scout mech, and it's 55 tons...

[BearFlag]

Tesunie, on 02 September 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

Question for you. What happens then when the Huntsman comes into the game? It can have upwards of 8 missile slots, and it's a 50 ton mech. Would you suggest, to stop the steak-man ... ah... Hunts-streak? Streak-hunts? Whatever... What would be your suggested fix than? To remove (as a quick solution) all 50 ton mechs from the game mode too?

I would like to insert that the Shadowhawk was in cannon a scout mech, and it's 55 tons...

Non-argument.

Fine.

Give me a Kintaro 18 with six missle hard points and with Clan weights for C-SSRM36 and we'll call it good. Oh, and Clan XL. Oh, and 110 kph.

Give me a Centurion with eight missle hardpoints and Clan weights and we'll call it good. Oh, and Clan XL.

In fact, let's make all the mechs the same and avoid the problem of balance all together.

The overriding fact is, mechs are not balanced, but matches should be.

I would like to insert: Can the ShadowHawk mount SSRM 36?

Edited by BearFlag, 02 September 2016 - 11:03 PM.

[SmokeGuar]

Would Clans then get unlocked armor and structure, right to free modifications of mechs?

When you complain about weights, you seem to forget that lot of Clan boats have limited carrying capability, either mass or slots.

Lose both torsos on clan boat = die, lose both on IS standard engine = live.

You are right, game is not fair.

[BSK]

SmokeGuar, on 03 September 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Lose both torsos on clan boat = die, lose both on IS standard engine = live.

You are right, game is not fair.

Actually it is fair, XL engines get destroyed when they lose 3 critical slots. Just that Clan XL engines have only 2 on each side and therefor only get destroyed when both sides are lost ..

[SmokeGuar]

I did not compare XL engines, i compared IS and Clan boats.

[Tesunie]

BearFlag, on 02 September 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

Non-argument.

Fine.

Give me a Kintaro 18 with six missle hard points and with Clan weights for C-SSRM36 and we'll call it good. Oh, and Clan XL. Oh, and 110 kph.

Give me a Centurion with eight missle hardpoints and Clan weights and we'll call it good. Oh, and Clan XL.

In fact, let's make all the mechs the same and avoid the problem of balance all together.

The overriding fact is, mechs are not balanced, but matches should be.

I would like to insert: Can the ShadowHawk mount SSRM 36?

I think you fixate too much on SSRMs... Although I don't disagree with you here either. IS should be getting some of it's more advanced tech. Then again, IS mechs are suppose to be balanced by different customization options as well as by "quirks". Most IS mechs have more health...

There are mechs that can actually out perform SSRMs, though few in numbers. There are also tactics that can be used against homing missiles that can render them from useless to less effective. One such thing is to engage them outside their damage ranges. Another trick is to gang up against a single Streak-boat with several ECM mechs (renders them useless, even if they have BAP). High concentrated damage can also drop a SSRM boat, out damaging them due to spread damage vs concentrated damage. AMS will also knock a few SSRMs out, depending upon the situation. Double AMS mechs have better protection. Swarms of AMS mechs together can be even more effective against SSRMs. (And no, I'm not saying that SSRMs can't be a problem, just that there are counters and tactics to diminish them.)

We need a bit of a balance between mechs being balanced (in probably an asymmetrical manner, which is the hardest to do) as well as matches being balanced.

SmokeGuar, on 03 September 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Would Clans then get unlocked armor and structure, right to free modifications of mechs?

When you complain about weights, you seem to forget that lot of Clan boats have limited carrying capability, either mass or slots.

Lose both torsos on clan boat = die, lose both on IS standard engine = live.

You are right, game is not fair.

I would comment as well, how many IS mechs benefit by surviving with no side torsos? Very few have CT weaponry. Typically, the Clan XL is vastly superior. However, I do also believe that PGI has taken very good measures over time to really bring clan and IS tech to a much more balanced situation. Not perfect, mind. But better than it was before, or even than it was in lore. (Of course, in lore IS had numbers advantage. Here, we do not have that disparity.)

[BLOOD WOLF]

Cathy, on 28 August 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

Town halls are pointless with Russ's refusal to remove Long Tom, whatever level of damage, how ever small the circle, a much needed chunk of players will not return, because they don't like random damage being applied in a fight.

Yes its effects can be some what mitigated, by learning how to, take cover behind a building, and to avoid being at ground zero. (which many people refuse to do admittedly)

But it is still there being random damage.

I called the death of FW to moment I saw the first mushroom cloud, because FW needs its semi casuals, and casuals for that matter, to supplement its hard core fans, and that will never be the case with a game mechanic like the Long Tom, in place.

Bring its damage and effect down to a level where some might come back, negates any point in Scouting without a serious rework of scouting, which PGI won't do.

Phase 3 irrefutably demonstrated to me, that PGI are incapable of developing anything outside and arena shooter, with limited objectives.

I think this has also been demonstrated in Q.P with dominion, and when new assault mode comes out, as whizy as it sounds, the practicality of playing it will cement my view in larger numbers than do all ready

okay, go make this case to the various people who attended the last townhall. I am sure they will agree with you.

I'm behind you 100%, beyond all doubt.

Hmm, in any case their might be a healthy solution to long tom. You know what would be nice, various people having a discussion and sorting through the better Ideas.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 03 September 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Tesunie, on 02 September 2016 - 09:25 PM, said:

Remember: Real life facts don't effect science fiction mechanics.

I will state, I had a different thought on what you meant with your first concepts than what you seemed to have intended.

Besides that, for concept 1 and 2, I can see that kinda working, but I can also see some abuse to it as well. For a concept as to why, that could be upwards of 96 strikes that can be placed without the enemy needing to even be near you. Sure they have a cool down, but that could still be rather disturbing to game play. Might be balanced, and may be a concept that would need to be tested first before real opinions could be formed.

For concept 3... I'll just repeat that there could be 96 strikes that could home onto the nearest enemy mech (I'm presuming within a radius of the marker) that can't exactly be dodged nor avoided. This would probably be even more devastating than the LT. Just place the strike next to an enemy, and watch them dodge to no effect. Light mech? Might not be able to get away fast enough and instantly lose legs/die.

We need effects that benefit the team, but doesn't add additional damage controlled by the game (or player). They still need to be worth while, and the more "information", "enhanced preparations" or "sabotage" like effects they are, the better they match the flavor of the scout mode. We need mechanics that can't be abused by a player, but has meaning and impact, without having such an impact that it deteriorates the game play experience. But, it still needs to be worth the effort to keep players within the different game modes.

I see this as being buff effects on objectives and/or debuffs on defenses. Be that gate gens, O-gens, the Omega, turrets, etc. It matches the lower tiered effects, which is information on enemy composition and their location are periodic times during the match. (Even enhancing those effects wouldn't be a bad place to go...)

As I believe I've said before, this is of course in my opinion. I am by no means trying to dismiss your concepts. I'm just trying to debate how they would effect the game play if they did manage to get implemented.

First, i don't know where you get the 96 from. You can only load 1 arty or 1 airstrike. That means 48. You have a cool down timer. So you'd never use all 48. Air strikes can be avoided. At least they are player controlled. This is just a buff to items already in the game. STILL BETTER THAN LONG TOM.

Second "could still be rather disturbing to game play" Nothing is more disturbing than Long Tom. I've never seen an airstrike kill 5 fresh mechs.

[Jon Gotham]

BSK, on 03 September 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Actually it is fair, XL engines get destroyed when they lose 3 critical slots. Just that Clan XL engines have only 2 on each side and therefor only get destroyed when both sides are lost ..

But said Is mechs have superior capability per contact window on average during that live time. My Warhammer for example boats FOUR PPCS and 2 medium lasers. It runs an XL. there is nothing in the clan arsenal at that weight that can do that as well. I might die a bit faster, but I will pump out WAY more damage before I do. In each contact window I will put out at least 40 pts PINPOINT, I can twist sooner and spread damage better. I can also put out this damage faster and more often than the clanner can.

I wish this whole "clanz op" thing would just stop-it's b***sh*t.

[MischiefSC]

Clan v IS balance answer is pretty simple. How many IIC mechs are running STD engines?

Oh, yeah.

How about we unlock everything and do mixed tech. You'll have some people running IS AC5s and UAC5s, that's it for IS tech. Maybe dsome would IS LPLs. Every single mech would run CXL, CEndo, CFF and almost exclusively Clan weapons.

Quirks create a quasi-balance for some builds on some chassis with specific loadouts in some situations. That's not balance. It never was. It's just close enough that we can apathetically put up with it.

LT is terrible. Players have been working hard for years to try and make FW work and we've gotten a handful of mediocre, at best, FW updates. Half of which have broken the game, LT for example nullified all the benefits scouting should have provided.

[Count Zero74]

Some players are still working hard to make FW but are shut down by a bunch of LoreWarrior Online players.

[MischiefSC]

Count Zero74, on 03 September 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

Some players are still working hard to make FW but are shut down by a bunch of LoreWarrior Online players.

Untrue.

If it were lore the Clans would be constantly at each other's throats, even fighting matches for "ownership" of units and individual players. IS v IS conflict would end almost completely to focus on Clans, Clans would slowly take territory and then fight each other for control of taken worlds.

This had nothing to do with "lore".

[Tavious Grimm]

You should be thankful this isn't based on lore. It would be 10v12 no Merc support for the Clans, not to mention certain chassis designs would be unavailable, the last one would be the same for Inner Sphere factions as well. Before Uncle Russ obliterated the time line it was stated that this game would advance yearly. 2016=3053 etc. The way it is now they should just make the time jump to 3058-3063. Things would get interesting.

[Count Zero74]

MischiefSC, on 03 September 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Untrue.

If it were lore the Clans would be constantly at each other's throats, even fighting matches for "ownership" of units and individual players. IS v IS conflict would end almost completely to focus on Clans, Clans would slowly take territory and then fight each other for control of taken worlds.

This had nothing to do with "lore".

Tell it to u know who Mischief