31 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

We all know that ED is designed with the goal to reduce alpha damage (with a few inconsistencies). You need to fire your weapons group by group based on how much energy you have left to avoid heat penalty.

Energy recharges at 20 per second rate. Different builds have different fire rates and alphas.
Even if you change a single laser in a mech with multiple weapon systems, your fire pattern must change accordingly to avoid penalty.

Currently the safe margin for avoiding ghost heat is 0.5 seconds always. Which really is not enough of a reason to use a macro because memorising 0.5 seconds is easy... also the current chainfire in the game (0.5 seconds delay) kinda does that for you if you have multiple weapons.

The problem with ED comes in the form of delay it takes between each shot in order to avoid penalty which is highly variable depending on the weapon you are using.
As an example: Firing 2 Gauss rifles in a quick sequence takes 0.5 seconds with no penalty. Yet, doing the same with AC20, the delay is 0.9 seconds

Needless to say that things will get even more complicated if you try to mix different weapons together. Going by muscle memory makes it very difficult or even impossible to match a fully capable macro designed specifically for a build to output max dps.

The only chance a human player using no macro has against such issue is to find a mech with a single or double weapon type and train himself using only that mech while being discouraged in making any change in builds in mechlab.

In higher levels of play, being as efficient as possible in damage output is very important, and ED makes it difficult for human muscle memory to match a macro.
Specially in a brawl

So my conclusion is that:

• - The difference between a macro player and a normal player would become very large
  
• - Multiple weapon types would be a disadvantage
  
• - Customisation is highly discouraged

My suggestion:

• - separate energy pool and ammo-based pool
  
• - Implement recoil or reload capacity for ammo eapons, instead of energy draw
  
• - reduce or increase the pool sizes for each mech based on mech hardpoints
  
• - Keep the cumulative penalty free alpha of both pools to 30-35.

I would welcome any discussion...


Also I would appreciate it if any PGI staff reads this an comment.

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2016 - 02:22 PM.

[Geist310]

BattleTech and MechWarrior both are/use mechs with fusions engines that supply more then enough power(energy) for any and all weapon system this new system is not Battle Tech or Mech warrior.
If they go to this none BT/MW system they will non longer be providing and environment where i can play the the mechs that I paid for and because this will not have access to the mechs that i paid for (IE mechs that had so much energy that i could fire weapons with out any concern to energy the amount of energy used).

And a possible breach in the contract they have with maintaining the the image and game style.

I would say the watching your energy consumption is anti battle tech and the introduction of the fusion reactors that made the Battle Mechs possible.

[Monkey Lover]

I'm sure people will try but doesn't mean it will really help.

On the live server now if you want to increase the DPS on a gauss a Marco can be used. I have tried it before on the grid iron. The biggest issue is you don't have the precision to hit the targets you want. I ended up wasting more shots than it was worth so I stopped using it.

[Navid A1]

Monkey Lover, on 26 August 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I'm sure people will try but doesn't mean it will really help.

On the live server now if you want to increase the DPS on a gauss a Marco can be used. I have tried it before on the grid iron. The biggest issue is you don't have the precision to hit the targets you want. I ended up wasting more shots than it was worth so I stopped using it.

Gauss charge makes it difficult to use macro.
But in PTS, it is far easier.

I personally hate players that use macro... but after being shown what a really advanced macro script can do... I'm convinced that this new energy system will be ripe with players using them.

Imagine that you remove you fire group key mappings to some keys that you do not use on the keyboard. Then use the macro software script to press those keys accordingly when you press your main fire buttons on your mouse.

Example:
You have 1 gauss and 2 PPCs?
You set fire group 1 to '0' key and fire group 2 to '9' key
Now you can use a script to detect your mouse1 and mouse2 keys and match them exactly to the energy draw system by simulation energy draw and recharge rate. returning 0 and 9 outputs accordingly and preventing your weapons to fire if there is a penalty.
You also can set an enable/disable for that script if you feel the need to alpha...or you can set a separate alpha key that you can use in case of emergency.

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2016 - 12:49 PM.

[SpiralFace]

I personally think macro's are worse in this system then the current Ghost heat system.

In GH, macro's are encouraged because a difference of .0001 second could mean the difference of getting away penalty free, or eating a huge 10 heat penalty in the case of heavier weapons like dual AC 20's.

Under the ED system, the penalty "scales" based on how far off you are from the ED meter. So if I miss a shot, I only get essentially a fraction of a single point of heat. So no big deal.

If anything, I feel macro's would get in the way of more optimal play. If I've got everything set up on a macro and I see an opportunity to either get my shot on target, or get that one last hit before a mech ducks behind a wall, I would be infuriated if a macro got in the way of me doing that. As I will gladly take a single point of heat to trade not getting "perfect" sync with the ED system, but to hit where I want my weapon to hit or get someone who is on the retreat.

Might just be me, but I feel like Macro's would be more of a hindrance in this system then a benefit.

[Navid A1]

SpiralFace, on 26 August 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

I personally think macro's are worse in this system then the current Ghost heat system.

In GH, macro's are encouraged because a difference of .0001 second could mean the difference of getting away penalty free, or eating a huge 10 heat penalty in the case of heavier weapons like dual AC 20's.

Under the ED system, the penalty "scales" based on how far off you are from the ED meter. So if I miss a shot, I only get essentially a fraction of a single point of heat. So no big deal.

If anything, I feel macro's would get in the way of more optimal play. If I've got everything set up on a macro and I see an opportunity to either get my shot on target, or get that one last hit before a mech ducks behind a wall, I would be infuriated if a macro got in the way of me doing that. As I will gladly take a single point of heat to trade not getting "perfect" sync with the ED system, but to hit where I want my weapon to hit or get someone who is on the retreat.

Might just be me, but I feel like Macro's would be more of a hindrance in this system then a benefit.

Maybe.
I'm just raising concerns about this potential exploit, that can not be matched by a normal player.

0.5 sec delay is pretty easy to manage.. and I hardly can think of a loadout other than dual AC20 that will require a macro (besides... AC20s on chainfire is basically a 0.5 macro on itself)

But when it gets to multiple SRMs + small pulses... it really gets messy!, and that is where the macro shines in the new energy draw system
A non macro user can not calculate the energy cost mid-brawl while and match it to an analog bar that gives no numbers and in the mean time keep the cross hair on target.


The main concern is close range combat...
A flamer, a bunch of Srms and some MPLs are everything a macro user needs.

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2016 - 01:30 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I don't think macros are necessary for this timing. Even if one were to miss the timing the penalty would be small.

[Deathlike]

Rouken Vordermark, on 26 August 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I don't think macros are necessary for this timing. Even if one were to miss the timing the penalty would be small.

It depends on the build.

If you "accidentally" alpha all the things (something like an Atlas-S with an AC20+4SRM6s), a tenth of a second is a big deal on how much heat you actually get.

[Navid A1]

Rouken Vordermark, on 26 August 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

I don't think macros are necessary for this timing. Even if one were to miss the timing the penalty would be small.

Perhaps.

I certainly can not test it... was just thinking about it
Brawl builds are the main case for this

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2016 - 02:41 PM.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Deathlike, on 26 August 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

It depends on the build.

If you "accidentally" alpha all the things (something like an Atlas-S with an AC20+4SRM6s), a tenth of a second is a big deal on how much heat you actually get.

Is it? A tenth of a second would mean you have an extra 2 energy in your bar. Since the heat penalty is 1:1 that means the penalty for missing the timing is 2 heat.

[Deathlike]

Rouken Vordermark, on 26 August 2016 - 02:48 PM, said:

Is it? A tenth of a second would mean you have an extra 2 energy in your bar. Since the heat penalty is 1:1 that means the penalty for missing the timing is 2 heat.

When you're brawing in an Atlas, that 2 heat is pretty significant.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Deathlike, on 26 August 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

When you're brawing in an Atlas, that 2 heat is pretty significant.

At ~3% of the mech's total heat, and only 1/12 the penalty that mech will incur anyways I'd still say its a small penalty.

[Navid A1]

Rouken Vordermark, on 26 August 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

At ~3% of the mech's total heat, and only 1/12 the penalty that mech will incur anyways I'd still say its a small penalty.

Well, in a brawl, even 1% heat can be the difference between you killing the enemy, or shutting down in front of him... You would not want even 1 point of extra heat.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Navid A1, on 26 August 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Well, in a brawl, even 1% heat can be the difference between you killing the enemy, or shutting down in front of him... You would not want even 1 point of extra heat.

No, I'm confident is saying 3% is small, and certainly doesn't justify the awkwardness of having a shot go off even if you're not lined up while using a macro.

If 1 point of extra heat is a concern then why are we talking about alphaing with a mech with a heat capacity of 56 and an alpha that generates 46 heat (24 of which is penalty heat) under energy draw?

[Navid A1]

Rouken Vordermark, on 26 August 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

No, I'm confident is saying 3% is small, and certainly doesn't justify the awkwardness of having a shot go off even if you're not lined up while using a macro.

If 1 point of extra heat is a concern then why are we talking about alphaing with a mech with a heat capacity of 56 and an alpha that generates 46 heat (24 of which is penalty heat) under energy draw?

Imagine you are in an Atlas-S and are charging an enemy. You just press one mouse button for AC20 and the other for SRMs.
You can easily accumulate up to 10 extra heat even by slightest timing error after 2-3 alphas. It is not just one alpha, it adds up.

The macro do the heat and energy management for you, and fires AC and individual SRMs accordingly. You'll basically have optimal dps as long as you are holding the trigger... while your enemy is limited to a 30 alpha and can not fire back that often.

[MadcatX]

Navid A1, on 26 August 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

Well, in a brawl, even 1% heat can be the difference between you killing the enemy, or shutting down in front of him... You would not want even 1 point of extra heat.

If you're running the line at 99% often, you're either REALLY good at heat management or shut down half the time anyways so that extra 1 point won't make a whole much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

[Navid A1]

MadcatX, on 26 August 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

If you're running the line at 99% often, you're either REALLY good at heat management or shut down half the time anyways so that extra 1 point won't make a whole much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

1 heat example was ti show that importance of heat in a brawl.

You can actually accumulate up to 10+ heat in multiple alphas each with no more than 0.1s error in timing of your shots

Edited by Navid A1, 26 August 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[MadcatX]

Navid A1, on 26 August 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

1 heat example was ti show that importance of heat in a brawl.

You can actually accumulate up to 10+ heat in multiple alphas each with no more than 0.1s error in timing of your shots

Ah ok. Honnestly, since I started a thread about really my only gripe with ED is accidentally triggering ED in a brawl so I know where you're coming from. It wasn't for much, it was just a couple of points since it was 3ML's fired maybe .5 to 1 second too soon after the AC20 but it was annoying enough that I always thought "Am I going to have to add "always looking at this darn ED bar" to my to-do list until I eventually am used to the timming? Because that would be annoying,

[Mystere]

Hmm. Is it time for one of these again?

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Navid A1, on 26 August 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

Imagine you are in an Atlas-S and are charging an enemy. You just press one mouse button for AC20 and the other for SRMs.
You can easily accumulate up to 10 extra heat even by slightest timing error after 2-3 alphas. It is not just one alpha, it adds up.

The macro do the heat and energy management for you, and fires AC and individual SRMs accordingly. You'll basically have optimal dps as long as you are holding the trigger.

Again, the macro makes you inflexible. Considering that the timing is not difficult there is little reason to sacrifice flexibility for this.

Frankly, I think you're overestimating macros or underestimating humans.

Quote

.. while your enemy is limited to a 30 alpha and can not fire back that often.

That's an odd assumption.