29 replies to this topic

[Trauglodyte]

I spoke a little bit about this over on the Outreach boards but, as things stand, MW:O won't change with Energy Draw. I like the concept of the idea because it is much more intuitive than Ghost Heat ever way and the information will be, as they've reported, listed in the mechlab (it should also be listed on the weapons group UI but we can push for that). The problem with Energy Draw and even Ghost Heat v1 was never the system but rather the lack of anything to punish players for not adhering to the system. Heat, like armor and structure, are resources. If you pilot poorly, you get shot up and lose vital pieces of your mech and, eventually, death. Thus, you're punished for poorly managing your health as a resource.

The problem we're facing with heat, though, is that there isn't anything that punishes you for not managing your heat. Overheating isn't even a deterrence because you can simply hit Override at the beginning of the match and the damage done internally is pretty much a joke.

The thing that really drives this need home, at least for me, is that I know, for a fact, that people aren't going to get away from boating mass amounts of weapons just because we have a new heat system in place. You'll still see multiple Large Pulse Lasers + Medium Lasers, you'll still see multiple Large Lasers, etc. Nothing changes with this new system and that is the problem. I get the need for something more simplistic. But, when are we going to implement something that God smacks us for mismanaging our heat?

Look at it like this: What happens to your computer when you overclock things? It gets hotter which means it slows down. You can't compute things as well, the heat sinks kick into overdrive just to dissipate as much added heat as possible which puts them at greater risk of breaking, you push yourself to a blue screen of death, etc. So, why are we able to run around as we see fit with no negative effects from essentially cooking our pilot alive? Hell, overheating damage doesn't even go to your head anymore.

[Lozruet Gravemind]

Trauglodyte, on 28 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

I spoke a little bit about this over on the Outreach boards but, as things stand, MW:O won't change with Energy Draw. I like the concept of the idea because it is much more intuitive than Ghost Heat ever way and the information will be, as they've reported, listed in the mechlab (it should also be listed on the weapons group UI but we can push for that). The problem with Energy Draw and even Ghost Heat v1 was never the system but rather the lack of anything to punish players for not adhering to the system. Heat, like armor and structure, are resources. If you pilot poorly, you get shot up and lose vital pieces of your mech and, eventually, death. Thus, you're punished for poorly managing your health as a resource.

The problem we're facing with heat, though, is that there isn't anything that punishes you for not managing your heat. Overheating isn't even a deterrence because you can simply hit Override at the beginning of the match and the damage done internally is pretty much a joke.

The thing that really drives this need home, at least for me, is that I know, for a fact, that people aren't going to get away from boating mass amounts of weapons just because we have a new heat system in place. You'll still see multiple Large Pulse Lasers + Medium Lasers, you'll still see multiple Large Lasers, etc. Nothing changes with this new system and that is the problem. I get the need for something more simplistic. But, when are we going to implement something that God smacks us for mismanaging our heat?

Look at it like this: What happens to your computer when you overclock things? It gets hotter which means it slows down. You can't compute things as well, the heat sinks kick into overdrive just to dissipate as much added heat as possible which puts them at greater risk of breaking, you push yourself to a blue screen of death, etc. So, why are we able to run around as we see fit with no negative effects from essentially cooking our pilot alive? Hell, overheating damage doesn't even go to your head anymore.

Id put it on the Modern Shooter, aka CoD crowd. They dont want random affects, ammo cook off/ head damage/slower movement. They want a predictable system that they can exploit for maximum Epeen, aka Stats. They dont want a Simulator but a Arcade shooter where there is no downside to playing like an idiot, hence why R&R was removed.

As to WHY PGI would design towards them and not the Battletech fans? Because Money. Samr reason the Titanfall 2 feels like CoD with Titans. It will sell a **** ton but very little depth. No one buys deep games anymore, why games like Myst went thr way of the dodo.

[Spleenslitta]

Trauglodyte, on 28 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

MW:O won't change with Energy Draw.

You had me with those words alone.

Trauglodyte, on 28 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

The problem we're facing with heat, though, is that there isn't anything that punishes you for not managing your heat. Overheating isn't even a deterrence because you can simply hit Override at the beginning of the match and the damage done internally is pretty much a joke.

Look at it like this: What happens to your computer when you overclock things? It gets hotter which means it slows down. You can't compute things as well, the heat sinks kick into overdrive just to dissipate as much added heat as possible which puts them at greater risk of breaking, you push yourself to a blue screen of death, etc. So, why are we able to run around as we see fit with no negative effects from essentially cooking our pilot alive? Hell, overheating damage doesn't even go to your head anymore.

And this could not have been said better.

[El Bandito]

Sad thing is, most of the progressive heat penalty effects are already made by PGI. Mechanics that can be used for simulating heat penalty, such as steam rising, aim sway, lock breaking, HUD disappearance, movement and twist/turn speed decrease, heatsink exploding etc... they are already in game. Now the big issue is whether PGI is competent enough to code it to link those effects with the rising heat meter.

Edited by El Bandito, 28 August 2016 - 04:48 PM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Trauglodyte, on 28 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

I spoke a little bit about this over on the Outreach boards but, as things stand, MW:O won't change with Energy Draw. I like the concept of the idea because it is much more intuitive than Ghost Heat ever way and the information will be, as they've reported, listed in the mechlab (it should also be listed on the weapons group UI but we can push for that). The problem with Energy Draw and even Ghost Heat v1 was never the system but rather the lack of anything to punish players for not adhering to the system. Heat, like armor and structure, are resources. If you pilot poorly, you get shot up and lose vital pieces of your mech and, eventually, death. Thus, you're punished for poorly managing your health as a resource.

The problem we're facing with heat, though, is that there isn't anything that punishes you for not managing your heat. Overheating isn't even a deterrence because you can simply hit Override at the beginning of the match and the damage done internally is pretty much a joke.

The thing that really drives this need home, at least for me, is that I know, for a fact, that people aren't going to get away from boating mass amounts of weapons just because we have a new heat system in place. You'll still see multiple Large Pulse Lasers + Medium Lasers, you'll still see multiple Large Lasers, etc. Nothing changes with this new system and that is the problem. I get the need for something more simplistic. But, when are we going to implement something that God smacks us for mismanaging our heat?

Look at it like this: What happens to your computer when you overclock things? It gets hotter which means it slows down. You can't compute things as well, the heat sinks kick into overdrive just to dissipate as much added heat as possible which puts them at greater risk of breaking, you push yourself to a blue screen of death, etc. So, why are we able to run around as we see fit with no negative effects from essentially cooking our pilot alive? Hell, overheating damage doesn't even go to your head anymore.

I really do not understand the problem that is jumping to a conclusion without first getting the evidence.

How about we test ED first, see how it works with 4v4 and works it way to 12v12. Tweak according to feedback, and then make the necessary conclusions.

What part of ED is still in its early stages is so hard for people to understand?

Before you conclude that it's not enough, let the people who are actually testing it give their feedback first, then look at what they have to say, then tell me it's not enough

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 28 August 2016 - 05:18 PM.

[Mole]

El Bandito, on 28 August 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

...PGI... ...competent...

Come on man, you should know by your age that these two words in the same sentence together is not valid syntax in English or any other language.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

Trauglodyte, on 28 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

I spoke a little bit about this over on the Outreach boards but, as things stand, MW:O won't change with Energy Draw. I like the concept of the idea because it is much more intuitive than Ghost Heat ever way and the information will be, as they've reported, listed in the mechlab (it should also be listed on the weapons group UI but we can push for that). The problem with Energy Draw and even Ghost Heat v1 was never the system but rather the lack of anything to punish players for not adhering to the system. Heat, like armor and structure, are resources. If you pilot poorly, you get shot up and lose vital pieces of your mech and, eventually, death. Thus, you're punished for poorly managing your health as a resource.

The problem we're facing with heat, though, is that there isn't anything that punishes you for not managing your heat. Overheating isn't even a deterrence because you can simply hit Override at the beginning of the match and the damage done internally is pretty much a joke.

The thing that really drives this need home, at least for me, is that I know, for a fact, that people aren't going to get away from boating mass amounts of weapons just because we have a new heat system in place. You'll still see multiple Large Pulse Lasers + Medium Lasers, you'll still see multiple Large Lasers, etc. Nothing changes with this new system and that is the problem. I get the need for something more simplistic. But, when are we going to implement something that God smacks us for mismanaging our heat?

Look at it like this: What happens to your computer when you overclock things? It gets hotter which means it slows down. You can't compute things as well, the heat sinks kick into overdrive just to dissipate as much added heat as possible which puts them at greater risk of breaking, you push yourself to a blue screen of death, etc. So, why are we able to run around as we see fit with no negative effects from essentially cooking our pilot alive? Hell, overheating damage doesn't even go to your head anymore.

Absolutely correct, it is why I have been crusading to go to a hard heat cap of 30 instead of starting at 50 like we currently do and then get a 1.1 or 1.5 or so extra capacity per heatsink added. This would do what energy draw is trying to do on it's own atm. We do need penalties and the whole idea of movement penalties being "random' is hyperbolic as heat induced penalties would be set at clear thresholds of heat. What those thresholds should be and what penalty it should be needs testing and debate.

El Bandito, on 28 August 2016 - 04:47 PM, said:

Sad thing is, most of the progressive heat penalty effects are already made by PGI. Mechanics that can be used for simulating heat penalty, such as steam rising, aim sway, lock breaking, HUD disappearance, movement and twist/turn speed decrease, heatsink exploding etc... they are already in game. Now the big issue is whether PGI is competent enough to code it to link those effects with the rising heat meter.

I think Russ on Twitter or a Town Hall mentioned something about they finally got past what he called a "technical limitation" with the heat stuff so they could put those fancy little icons on the heat bar saying how bad the heat is and could tie into penalties at certain heat levels. But we do need to have some form of penalty kick in at some point between 30% and 80% heat, at first being a limited thing of course, minimal draw backs, probably have the hud flickering a bit since it is the best feedback you can give a player. From there add growing mobility penalties and shake as the heat mounts. Because yeah there is no difference between running at 0% heat and what 95-99% heat since beyond that is when you take any form of penalty and for the most part the penalty people flee from is shutting down, they are okay with taking the random damage if it means more damage dealt.

BLOOD WOLF, on 28 August 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

I really do not understand the problem that is jumping to a conclusion without first getting the evidence.

How about we test ED first, see how it works with 4v4 and works it way to 12v12. Tweak according to feedback, and then make the necessary conclusions.

What part of ED is still in its early stages is so hard for people to understand?

Before you conclude that it's not enough, let the people who are actually testing it give their feedback first, then look at what they have to say, then tell me it's not enough

I agree and have been testing on the PTS for ED (even showed up in Kanajashi's second PTS video), I do think ED has a good potential to be a far more easy grasp stopgap for large alphas that may well be needed even if we do what I would like and set the heat cap to 30 instead of starting heat capacity at 50. I feel a much lower max heat that a mech can take is far more useful for curbing large alphas as the shutdown threshold and random damage threshold is a lot closer.

As I have said elsewhere I still feel that probably the two things MWO could use to balance massive alphas that would be easier than ED (and also cheaper as no new UI features) would be to make it so if you fire more than 20 points worth of damage in .5 seconds you get a small shake. The magnitude of the shake would be exponential and directly tied to how far over 20 points of damage done which eventually leads to the point of something like a direstar firing all of it's PPC's at once in what looks to be more like a fireworks show than any attempt to harm the foe. Why? Because ED doesn't address the two core issues I feel MWO has.

First is multi weapon high damage volleys are just as accurate as standing still and firing a single gauss rifle, shouldn't be that way in my book, nor should we be perfectly accurate while moving at running speed, or even walking speed. These accuracy penalties shouldn't be absolutes though, these penalties should be something that pilot skill with a mech slowly removes the accuracy penalty. Have this skill be dependent on each chassis of mech you run you have to get x amount of XP to overcome more and more of the accuracy penalties for firing on the move, but, never removes it from <20 damage in .5 second shots and never removes masc/jj shake. This makes playing one mech give you a passive boost to the skill cap that you can't just buy off with GXP, as well as just gives another long term goal. Would it completely nullify the walking and running accuracy penalties? Eh, no, but lessen the walking accuracy penalty to be closer to null and the running penalty at max be that accuracy penalty with a fresh mech at walking.

Second major issue ED doesn't directly deal with, but, to PGI's credit indirectly does touch on is the high heat capacity and heat capacity that varies from build to build and often larger mechs have far more heat capacity than a lighter mech. This comes in the heat penalty that a mech gets over 30 damage, lights and some mediums will not feel it, some mediums will feel it namely 50+ ton mediums which are currently the lightest mechs that are really considered that viable. ED also addresses the issue of the golden goose that is Gauss, a weapon that is very low risk and high reward by making it effectively generate heat if used in conjunction with most other weapons. Gauss should have some heat tied to it beyond 1 heat. In Tabletop there was the downside of you could just get within two hexes (60m) and be very hard to hit with Gauss as well as most other long range weapons like AC2's, AC5's, PPC's, and LRM's but that isn't the case here so adding in a min range to Gauss and making it very hard to aim at targets closer than 60m just wouldn't work out well because there is almost no way to logic it to be as such. So we get back to making Gauss take heat, just like any other high damage weapon. It's heat should be a function of range, damage, and velocity, meaning it should be a very hot weapon, maybe not 15 heat, but, certainly 10 heat would be pretty solid point to put it at, maybe 7-8 heat due to it has ammo an explodes if damaged. This would make it the hotest ballsitic weapon in the game and help deal with it's low risk high reward nature. Of course in a system that starts at 50 heat capcacity and only goes up with more heat sinks 10 or 7-8 heat is really nothing, more so with the long cooldown Gauss has on the PTS.

Second point in short is that ED indirectly attempts to lower the apparent heat cacpacity of mechs by making extra heat happen when violating the 30 energy capacity of a mech. Without penalties for running hot I agree that ED won't do much, but, ED is a attempt to treat a symtom of high alphas which is a symptom of our almost double heat capacity that we have. We need heat penalties and we need a lower heat capacity, we might also still need energy draw to handle certain builds that do damage in too efficent of a manner like twin gauss does, or LPL boating, or a myriad of other things that we could argue about if they do or don't work too efficently at the detriment of MWO.

TL:DR, I agree with what people are saying in that ED is a good start for bandaging the issue of our broken and almost ignorable heat scale, but, that it doesn't go far enough in it's current form.

Edited by Moonlight Grimoire, 28 August 2016 - 06:33 PM.

[LordNothing]

once again i invoke this post.

[XtremWarrior]

Trauglodyte, on 28 August 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

I don't see what is the problem with boating, as long as people can not fire all those boated weapons at once.

And i don't see why you start talking about boating if you want to complain about some lack of heatscale.
(then i re read your post and notice you only talk about Lasers. Do you have a problem with energy boat? Cuz a lot of Mechs are Energy Boat by design)

And bad management of your Heat has a penalty which is Shutting Down. Or if you press "override", death.

Just so you know, putting hard negatives on certains heat thresholds will not stop players from using high heat loadouts. Just as overheating is not preventing high alpha, we'll find the sweet spot between being crippled by heat and killing our opponent as fast as possible.
Surfing on the "90% heat" is, whether you want it or not, skillful. Putting some random effect will make players ride the threshold where the penalty are less crippling, and they'll surf the 70% or 60% heat just as they do now at 90, boating and putting as much damage in every single strike as they can.
In that matter, neither ED nor anything will prevent players from playing the game at its extremes - this is gaming and Min-Maxing will always be the only rule.

I say, let's see what ED do to the main server before complaining it "won't be enough". And let's get deeper into our own propositions before saying it will (be enough).

Edited by XtremWarrior, 29 August 2016 - 01:34 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Energy draw is in theory a reasonable system, that could work.

The way PGI plan to balance it though is terrible, and if introduced live, in it's current state, will cause more people to stop playing or stop supporting it with hard cash, because it will make pretty much every build not built around large lasers worthless.

I was planning on playing this at least until the middle of next year and to help keep the lights on, how ever second phase of ED has shown P.G.I don't know how to make a good system work properly, because they nerf the weapons and not the base line of the build.

Their egos and vanity has cause them to turn down far better and simpler systems, suggested by the community,that would work because to quote Russ "We know best".

From a good start, and ED had potential to be a workable system, though over complex. their lack of ability to understand how their own game works, is causing this to head for one massive Train wreck.

Edited by Cathy, 29 August 2016 - 02:35 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Cathy, on 29 August 2016 - 02:33 AM, said:

Energy draw is in theory a reasonable system, that could work.

The way PGI plan to balance it though is terrible, and if introduced live, in it's current state, will cause more people to stop playing or stop supporting it with hard cash, because it will make pretty much every build not built around large lasers worthless.

I was planning on playing this at least until the middle of next year and to help keep the lights on, how ever second phase of ED has shown P.G.I don't know how to make a good system work properly, because they nerf the weapons and not the base line of the build.

Their egos and vanity has cause them to turn down far better and simpler systems, suggested by the community,that would work because to quote Russ "We know best".

From a good start, and ED had potential to be a workable system, though over complex. their lack of ability to understand how their own game works, is causing this to head for one massive Train wreck.

[Redacted]

You obviously do not understand the concept of Science. Sciene is a tool with which we use data through observation, to make the best predictable models we possible can. Which gets improved through trial and error.

All people like you are doing is talking, with no evidence to back yourself up. It's beyond a joke, and it's driven by your dislike of PGI. Your letting your own personal view and grudges get in the way [Redacted].

[Redacted] demonstrate why your claims are correct [Redacted]

Three cheers for the people actually testing the system and giving feedback, [Redacted] us move forward and test the upcoming feature that is ED and actually see if it's a system we can work with.

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 30 August 2016 - 06:45 PM.
unconstructive, insults, language

[Johnny Z]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 August 2016 - 04:24 AM, said:

[Redacted]

You obviously do not understand the concept of Science. Sciene is a tool with which we use data through observation, to make the best predictable models we possible can. Which gets improved through trial and error.

All people like you are doing is talking, with no evidence to back yourself up. It's beyond a joke, and it's driven by your dislike of PGI. Your letting your own personal view and grudges get in the way [Redacted].

[Redacted] demonstrate why your claims are correct [Redacted]

Three cheers for the people actually testing the system and giving feedback, [Redacted] us move forward and test the upcoming feature that is ED and actually see if it's a system we can work with.

[Redacted]

Good point. I missed how funny it is for some of the negative types talking about ego, when their ego is completely off the leash with their comments. Thanks for pointing that out.

As for the topic title, heat is a great mechanic from the original board game that looks like it will serve as the back end to this new system, while energy draw will serve as the front end. Will it be enough? For sure.

It even makes sense. Combine this with ammo use for some weapons and the rest of the game mechanics and MechWarrior Online has put the competition in the stone ages. So all you negative players keep banging rocks together, meanwhile this game will move ahead.

Edited by draiocht, 30 August 2016 - 06:05 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[TLBFestus]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 August 2016 - 04:24 AM, said:

[Redacted]

You obviously do not understand the concept of Science. Sciene is a tool with which we use data through observation, to make the best predictable models we possible can. Which gets improved through trial and error.

All people like you are doing is talking, with no evidence to back yourself up. It's beyond a joke, and it's driven by your dislike of PGI. Your letting your own personal view and grudges get in the way [Redacted].

[Redacted] demonstrate why your claims are correct [Redacted]

Three cheers for the people actually testing the system and giving feedback, [Redacted] us move forward and test the upcoming feature that is ED and actually see if it's a system we can work with.

[Redacted]

Show us your evidence genius. That's the pot calling the kettle black.

As much as you refer to critics as trolls, you fit the description pretty well yourself with your relentless cheering for an obviously damaged game. At least many (not all) of the "trolls" you refer to actually say positive things when it's due. You, on the other hand, can't drop your pom-poms at all.

There are lots of people who have tested ED and are critical of it, sometimes even mildly at worst. FYI it's not science....it's "testing". There's no real "science" in this game except for how you describe it as a type of fiction.

At least you only spelled "science" wrong in this post, and it looks like a legitimate error rather than actually not knowing how to spell this time. Maybe that explains your spelling. Pom-poms and keyboards don't mix well.

Edited by draiocht, 30 August 2016 - 06:07 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Well, to be honest, players will always game any system that you make to try to stop them from gaming the system. Especially in competitive games. Its usually couched in terms like "taking your A game"

[YourSaviorLegion]

BADS WILL BE BAD AND GOODS WILL BE GOOD, no matter what you do to the game this will stay constant...

[Johnny Z]

YourSaviorLegion, on 29 August 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

BADS WILL BE BAD AND GOODS WILL BE GOOD, no matter what you do to the game this will stay constant...

*All I hear is rocks banging together*

Edited by Johnny Z, 29 August 2016 - 08:47 AM.

[Zolaz]

[Johnny Z]

Zolaz, on 29 August 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

Stay classy Mechwarriors.

[Jet Warrior]

I guess ED itself will not solve the problem at all, but, with ED there is ways to create other penalties (malfunctions, ammo cook, etc.) that was not possible with ghost heat. For now ED only adresses the power creep issue, but after that there will be many more possibilities (like trading some of the "energy pool for weapons" for other system, like sensors)

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Lozruet Gravemind, on 28 August 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

They dont want a Simulator

Pretty much the only opinion on your post that is correct.