82 replies to this topic

[xX PUG Xx]

I'm wondering what is actually in this "mildly warm fix"? Drop Ship editing I would imagine but what else?

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Aug 30 Russ on twitter
https://twitter.com/...7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

correction: it has been rightly suggested to me that the FP event should wait until after the hotfix which fixes several Drop deck bugs

Also look for an official post tomorrow announcing a second hotfix sometime next week with changes for mini map and drop deck editing.

Edited by The Nerf Bat, 30 August 2016 - 10:34 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

feeWAIVER, on 30 August 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

Wasn't LT nerfed into the ground a couple patches ago?
Seriously, these quickplay carebears need to get a grip.

Nope.

It's the same ole LT.

Until it's fixed, there should be no FP event. This is just going to deter people even more and kill the queue's entirely for 4hrs a cycle, just like last time.

SIGH.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 31 August 2016 - 12:42 AM.

[iLLcapitan]

Well it seemed toned down a bit the last time I experienced it (~1 week ago), dunno if they changed it again.
It was still hurting but not killing fresh mechs. But still, too frequent, widens the gap between organized/ unorganized groups and finally it really ruins the rare 'good' (close) matches we still get.

[feeWAIVER]

justcallme A S H, on 31 August 2016 - 12:35 AM, said:

Nope.

It's the same ole LT.

Until it's fixed, there should be no FP event. This is just going to deter people even more and kill the queue's entirely for 4hrs a cycle, just like last time.

SIGH.

I only played against LT once since the July Patch.

Quote

Changes to Long Tom Artillery

• Maximum amount of Damage that can be dealt to a single 'Mech is now 1320 DMG (120 DMG per Component).
• That is a reduction from the previous 1650 DMG (150 DMG per Component).
• Total Blast Radius is now 200 m (reduced from 300 m).
• Epicenter Damage Radius is now 30 m (reduced from 50 m).
• Epicenter Damage Radius is the Radius in which 'Mechs take maximum damage.

But basically, the radius shrinkage made it a non-issue, and it did very little damage.
I don't think anyone even died from LT that game.


While I agree that LT should be removed, and replaced with the Satelite sweep as a the tier 3 reward (with tier 1 reward being a Cbill bonus), I don't think it's bad enough to boycott FP.

[iLLcapitan]

It's a stigma and some folks won't touch FW as long as it's there.

[Dyhalto]

If nothing else the 1st townhall proved a large majority of the playerbase hates the idea of Long Tom just by name alone regardless of how weak or strong it is. Between all the spam in chat and multiple "CW Leaders" bringing up the point it empties planets I don't see how it can be salvaged.

[DarklightCA]

It emptied planets when it was overpowered, it's not the same LT as it use to be. I don't understand why there is so much hate for it, it's honestly the only thing that actually made Faction Play a little dynamic. If a faction was struggling to defend their planet than they could boost their scouting efforts to get LT to give them a little edge in it's defense.

It doesn't nuke a area anymore but is still effective enough to force teams to have to spread out more rather than deathball which is also a good thing. Faction Play could honestly use more things like LT, things that players/units can do to change the dynamic of their fights on a planet for both attack/defense.

[justcallme A S H]

Being killed by something you have zero control over, is dynamic?

iLLcapitan, on 31 August 2016 - 07:36 AM, said:

It's a stigma and some folks won't touch FW as long as it's there.

Spot on

Yes it's been toned down but it's simple something no one wants.
Do a push through a choke point on the maps with LT, see what happens.

For the PUGs, they get slaughtered or badly damaged. Thus ruining their experience. And given there are more PUG teams than organised ones currently, it only ends one way.

[MischiefSC]

No. LT is absolute **** game design. Balance in 4v4 will never be as good as a 48 v 48 environment. If Scouting gives a decisive advantage in invasion than scouting > invasion.

End result being you HAVE to win scouting *first* if you want to play Invasion. Do if you don't want to drop 12 scouting matches for every invasion match you drop... well, too bad for you.

It's not dynamic any more than requiring you to play your next QP match as Conquest in Vitric because some pugs lost their Skirmish match earlier today is equally as terrible.

Better map design and new modes would make it more dynamic. Having an auto-fire auto-damage mechanic like that is insanely bad. Given that it will always be present in favor of coordinated teams playing pugs (since coordinated teams also win scouting even more than invasion) it's a pug stomp bonus surprise.

There is nothing redeeming about it that wouldn't be done 100x better by 10p different mechanics.

[DarklightCA]

justcallme A S H, on 31 August 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

Being killed by something you have zero control over, is dynamic?

The fact you can change the gameplay by incorporating simple elements as planet sweep and long tom is dynamic otherwise it's the same gameplay over and over again. Also you do have control over it it's called not hugging your teammates. If you spread out than long tom means very little.

MischiefSC, on 31 August 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

No. LT is absolute **** game design. Balance in 4v4 will never be as good as a 48 v 48 environment. If Scouting gives a decisive advantage in invasion than scouting > invasion.

End result being you HAVE to win scouting *first* if you want to play Invasion. Do if you don't want to drop 12 scouting matches for every invasion match you drop... well, too bad for you.

It's not dynamic any more than requiring you to play your next QP match as Conquest in Vitric because some pugs lost their Skirmish match earlier today is equally as terrible.

Better map design and new modes would make it more dynamic. Having an auto-fire auto-damage mechanic like that is insanely bad. Given that it will always be present in favor of coordinated teams playing pugs (since coordinated teams also win scouting even more than invasion) it's a pug stomp bonus surprise.

There is nothing redeeming about it that wouldn't be done 100x better by 10p different mechanics.

Scouting does not give you a decisive advantage, the original LT might have but that's not the case anymore. If long tom does so much damage to a team that they become at a severe disadvantage than that's the teams mistake as the only way that can happen is if they were circle jerking each other the entire map staying as clumped up as possible.

The nerfed version is only extra damage on clumped up teams and if they are that clumped up than they deserved to get hit in the first place. One little thing changes the dynamic of any game regardless if it's against a pug team or a organized team and that's a good thing as it forces people to spread out more and change how they attack.

Also what's your deal with comparing things you disagree with to quick play lately? Last I checked every game of quick play is exactly the same down to going to the same spots. Which is the same with faction play without things like long tom that changes how teams approach attacking and their positioning.

Better map design will make the game more playable, it won't make it dynamic. I am also pretty sure that scouting was always more popular with solo players than it was with organized groups. Last I checked as well solo players were also the primary people on defense lanes and organized groups were still the primary attackers so your example does not hold up when in most cases it's likely to be the solo players with the long tom and the organized groups fighting against it.

Edited by DarklightCA, 31 August 2016 - 03:51 PM.

[MazeRunner]

The physics and damage could use a bit of work and reduction for LT,, but the break up of routine stomps, slugfests and so on is a nice change. I've never thought about it in terms of losing xp or c-bills and I'm usually thinking "should've moved a little faster" when I get LT'd, but otherwise FP could use all the shake ups it can get.
Sort of bizarre to see people worrying about c-bills in a game where you can shovel up c-bills faster than you can a Tier 5's smoking wreckage.

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

The fact you can change the gameplay by incorporating simple elements as planet sweep and long tom is dynamic otherwise it's the same gameplay over and over again. Also you do have control over it it's called not hugging your teammates. If you spread out than long tom means very little.



Scouting does not give you a decisive advantage, the original LT might have but that's not the case anymore. If long tom does so much damage to a team that they become at a severe disadvantage than that's the teams mistake as the only way that can happen is if they were circle jerking each other the entire map staying as clumped up as possible.

The nerfed version is only extra damage on clumped up teams and if they are that clumped up than they deserved to get hit in the first place. One little thing changes the dynamic of any game regardless if it's against a pug team or a organized team and that's a good thing as it forces people to spread out more and change how they attack.

Also what's your deal with comparing things you disagree with to quick play lately? Last I checked every game of quick play is exactly the same down to going to the same spots. Which is the same with faction play without things like long tom that changes how teams approach attacking and their positioning.

Better map design will make the game more playable, it won't make it dynamic. I am also pretty sure that scouting was always more popular with solo players than it was with organized groups. Last I checked as well solo players were also the primary people on defense lanes and organized groups were still the primary attackers so your example does not hold up when in most cases it's likely to be the solo players with the long tom and the organized groups fighting against it.

When FW is coordinated teams vs coordinated teams of skilled players then great.

Currently? I'll absolutely take an average 12man against 228 with LT on our side. Happily. Except that's not how it goes - the faction with the size and/or coordination advantage gets LT, extending their Invasion advantage.

Which is why nobody plays when LT is active. Nobody wants to play at a disadvantage - why should they? Especially given that the vast bulk of match population is pugs.

We already know what impact LT has on FW. It empties queues. We still have people filling matches because we've stopped scouting on gentlemans agreement. That is the only reason matches are getting played in FW.

Your argument is as reasonable as "everyone should just group up and play like KCom and all pugs should get on TS in premades and it'd be fine".

It's not rational argument. Different maps and modes absolutely would make it more dynamic- points on the map that need defended or held, etc.

LT is just bad. It robs damage and kills and only serves to broaden the advantage of premades over pugs.

[DarklightCA]

MischiefSC, on 31 August 2016 - 04:36 PM, said:

When FW is coordinated teams vs coordinated teams of skilled players then great.

Currently? I'll absolutely take an average 12man against 228 with LT on our side. Happily. Except that's not how it goes - the faction with the size and/or coordination advantage gets LT, extending their Invasion advantage.

Which is why nobody plays when LT is active. Nobody wants to play at a disadvantage - why should they? Especially given that the vast bulk of match population is pugs.

We already know what impact LT has on FW. It empties queues. We still have people filling matches because we've stopped scouting on gentlemans agreement. That is the only reason matches are getting played in FW.

Your argument is as reasonable as "everyone should just group up and play like KCom and all pugs should get on TS in premades and it'd be fine".

It's not rational argument. Different maps and modes absolutely would make it more dynamic- points on the map that need defended or held, etc.

LT is just bad. It robs damage and kills and only serves to broaden the advantage of premades over pugs.

You are right the faction with the most coordination is likely going to be the faction that win's scouting which is how it should be only most of that power really lies with Merc units and not actual factions. As such it changes between faction to faction as contracts expire. You aren't going to know which faction will actually win scouting until they do.

Nobody played when LT was active when it was overpowered, nobody really gave it a chance after the changes PGI made to it. Namely because the gamemode doesn't have the population to support the scouting mode unless there is a event.

Also everybody should somewhat play like KCom and they should get on teamspeak. They would have much better games and the gamemode would be more fun. However that's not the same as saying just spread the hell out so long tom doesn't damage everybody. That's such a SIMPLE thing that anybody can do and is very reasonable.

The only thing that is not rational is this idea that premade's need long tom for "advantages" over pugs. Also the fact you completely ignore the fact that "pugs" still choose defense lanes over attack lanes and as such are more likely to have the long tom.

Edited by DarklightCA, 31 August 2016 - 05:00 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

The fact you can change the gameplay by incorporating simple elements as planet sweep and long tom is dynamic otherwise it's the same gameplay over and over again. Also you do have control over it it's called not hugging your teammates. If you spread out than long tom means very little.

So you spread out before LT, because you have to (and PUGs, well, don't/can't and silly to expect them to)

And then while trying to regroup after spreading out you get deathballed by a 12-man.

Dynamic gameplay indeed. It just means the side with LT gets to pick targets off one by one rather than a group.

If you can't see that it totally discourages people, then there is nothing further to discuss here.

[DarklightCA]

justcallme A S H, on 31 August 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

So you spread out before LT, because you have to (and PUGs, well, don't/can't and silly to expect them to)

And then while trying to regroup after spreading out you get deathballed by a 12-man.

Dynamic gameplay indeed. It just means the side with LT gets to pick targets off one by one rather than a group.

If you can't see that it totally discourages people, then there is nothing further to discuss here.

Long Tom changes how people react when attacking. It changes how they position and how they attack otherwise all that happens is they deathball game after game. That's pretty damn dynamic.

Also if you look at a lot of organized teams they usually spread out on both defense and attack. Clumping together is not a good way to play the game. By spreading out I don't mean you have guys on one side of the map and guys on the other side of the map. I mean don't have your entire team in the same grid.

Spreading out means you have a better firing line, more people have line of sight to targets and are not constantly having that vision blocked by friendly mechs. Spreading out is not a death sentence, it's a good way to play the game.

Edited by DarklightCA, 31 August 2016 - 05:16 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

I'm well aware of what it means, but lets look at the realistic situation for a second. Ghost dropping have never been more frequent. It's hard to have a "dynamic" game of Long Tom when there is no one to play?

Why is there no one to play? All Long Tom does is discourage players, empty queue's and cause the overall FP population to suffer as a result.

If you are too ignorant to see it, maybe you should apply for a job at PGI. You'd fit in there really well.

[DarklightCA]

justcallme A S H, on 31 August 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

I'm well aware of what it means, but lets look at the realistic situation for a second. Ghost dropping have never been more frequent. It's hard to have a "dynamic" game of Long Tom when there is no one to play?

Why is there no one to play? All Long Tom does is discourage players, empty queue's and cause the overall FP population to suffer as a result.

If you are too ignorant to see it, maybe you should apply for a job at PGI. You'd fit in there really well.

I am pretty sure Faction Play has been suffering population, long wait times and inability to find games long before Long Tom was a thing. The only thing Long Tom did was make people not want to drop on planets that had it because at the time it was super overpowered but they found other planets to drop on.

Long Tom never got a good second chance after it was was nerfed and if it was still a problem than it can still be nerfed further but it was always a good addition to the gamemode that changed up the gameplay. This gamemode isn't suffering because it exists and it won't stop suffering if it was removed.

[Deathlike]

DarklightCA, on 31 August 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

I am pretty sure Faction Play has been suffering population, long wait times and inability to find games long before Long Tom was a thing. The only thing Long Tom did was make people not want to drop on planets that had it because at the time it was super overpowered but they found other planets to drop on.

Long Tom never got a good second chance after it was was nerfed and if it was still a problem than it can still be nerfed further but it was always a good addition to the gamemode that changed up the gameplay. This gamemode isn't suffering because it exists and it won't stop suffering if it was removed.

Just because it's bad design, it doesn't justify keeping it there.

[DarklightCA]

Deathlike, on 31 August 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Just because it's bad design, it doesn't justify keeping it there.

Long Tom isn't bad design, it's a good design to mixup the gameplay as it is really needed. The only problem people really had with it was how strong it was. Pretty sure I'd rather PGI just adjust it than get rid of it.