27 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Pls convince me that ed is a good system or at least better than gh.

Mind you it needed to change stats on all lasers, ppc, ac5 and bigger, all uacs, srm4 and 6, just to balance them for this system alone...it havent solved any balance problems with lbx, srm2 or lurms(actually it made lurm5 boats even more op than they were before).

But maybe im missing something and its better in some way.

Meanwhile ill continue redesigning all my clan mechs into 2 builds
1)lpl
2)erppc(dunno why, theyll nerf it next week)

Edited by davoodoo, 02 September 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[Dingo Battler]

initially, ED will encourage the bads to buy mechpacks, as bads will enthusiastically assume they will stride into the battlefield as a god-like mechwarrior, chainfiring his weapons to kill those who had previously crushed him like a bug, protected by his TTK armour and 30pt nub shield.

In the long run, all it'll do is extend the life of nubs maybe 1-2 minutes longer, so they can be convinced to drag out their experience a tiny little bit longer. The bads will still be crushed like bugs, albeit slower, and much more annoyingly.

The net effect might be that in the very short term, they would have a slight boost in revenue, and might be able to release another few mechpacks, so if you're praying for the mad cat MkII, you might get one. Then it'll crash hard, as anyone who spend money and know how its played will leave due to annoyance, and then, they'll pull the plug in 2018 when the licence expires, leaving your arse in the wind.

So I'd say good in the short term, if you're a nub, bad if you actually know how the game is played, and can tolerate it in its minimally viable form right now.

[davoodoo]

I dont see it extending ttk, especially for bads.

Theyre bads, they dont twist and they position themselves poorly. This makes them damage magnet and still 6x30 dmg alpha=180dmg all easily put into ct, maybe fatlas will survive that.

But for non bads?? ppl who spend hours in the game and whaled hard in the past??
i just dont see a reason to buy energy boat marauder 2c as theres nothing to put on it, 4erppc or 4lpl
Night gyr which got smaller engine leaving tonnage for more weaponry, except ed and uac nerfs basically leaving 4 erppc or 4 lpl build
huntsman?? 2 erppc or 2 lpl why not hbk2c instead??

I dont feel very convinced.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 September 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[Mystere]

davoodoo, on 02 September 2016 - 04:16 AM, said:

Pls convince me that ed is a good system or at least better than gh.

Considering that the latest test has devolved to weapon-specific draws, making ED more complicated than GH, I'm doing no such thing. In fact, I think you should join me in declaring that ED is a bust and that GH should be improved/simplified/made clearer instead.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Mystere, on 02 September 2016 - 06:54 AM, said:

Considering that the latest test has devolved to weapon-specific draws, making ED more complicated than GH, I'm doing no such thing. In fact, I think you should join me in declaring that ED is a bust and that GH should be improved/simplified/made clearer instead.

If they implement draw values into the weapon group part of mechlab then it would make it significantly less complicated than GH, that's literally all they need to do...

[Appuagab]

ED is better than GH just because it doesn't tie you to particular meta builds on every single mech. I don't even think what to fit on mech anymore, stacking up to 2CLPLs and 6ERMLs became a reflex for me. Timber wolf, Executioner, Dire Wolf, Hellbringer, different mechs, same build.

But all these new weapons stats on PTS3 are very questionable.

[davoodoo]

Appuagab, on 02 September 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

ED is better than GH just because it doesn't tie you to particular meta builds on every single mech. I don't even think what to fit on mech anymore, stacking up to 2CLPLs and 6ERMLs became a reflex for me. Timber wolf, Executioner, Dire Wolf, Hellbringer, different mechs, same build.

But all these new weapons stats on PTS3 are very questionable.

It doesnt??

look at my original post.
lpl and cerppc.thats meta...

And on gh i actually had 2lurm15 ebj, 2 gauss ebj and laservomit ebj, i also sometimes ran 6 mlas 2 uac5 ebj.
all dead, replaced by lpl, ppc and uac10.

I loved my kdk1 with 6 mplas and uac20 and 4lpl gauss/lb20x kdk2 despite everyone running kdk3.

Night gyr with 2 gauss?? yeah no, not gonna happen now
Night gyr with 4 uac5?? why even bother, 3 uac10 or gtfo
lurmboat?? cant fit enough lrm5...
At least 4 ppc and 4 lpl variant will still be viable...

Amount of effective builds dropped...im not convinced at all...

Edited by davoodoo, 02 September 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[Twinkleblade]

davoodoo, on 02 September 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

It doesnt??

look at my original post.
lpl and cerppc.thats meta...

And on gh i actually had 2lurm15 ebj, 2 gauss ebj and laservomit ebj, i also sometimes ran 6 mlas 2 uac5 ebj.
all dead, replaced by lpl, ppc and uac10.

I loved my kdk1 with 6 mplas and uac20 and 4lpl gauss/lb20x kdk2 despite everyone running kdk3.

Night gyr with 2 gauss?? yeah no, not gonna happen now
Night gyr with 4 uac5?? why even bother, 3 uac10 or gtfo
lurmboat?? cant fit enough lrm5...
At least 4 ppc and 4 lpl variant will still be viable...

Amount of effective builds dropped...im not convinced at all...

None of your mentioned builds are even that good on live besides the laser vomit. Double gauss will be still strong in PTS 3. 36 ED for 30 damage thats 8 heat. UAC need help in PTS 3. cERPPC might be too strong but by increasing ED can be put back into place, dont understand why they unnerfed them in the first place. I assume that PGI is trying out the other side of the coin going extreme. Something good in my opinion to see how it effects the game.

You completly ignored brawler builds in PTS3, who got buffed by better medium and small laser weapons. Try using quad ppc in brawl range and you will die. cERPPC have been too hot even when not triggering ghost heat. ED wont change that.

However I am pretty sure you wont be convinced by any pro ED argument because from what I have seen so far you keep saying the same thing over and over again independent of anything other people say.

Sadly you have set your mind on preventing ED at all cost even when majority of people are pro ED overall. Yes ED has problems but they can be fixed and overall will be better for game longlivity.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 September 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

You completly ignored brawler builds in PTS3, who got buffed by better medium and small laser weapons.

I don't think you know what makes brawlers good.....

[Twinkleblade]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

I don't think you know what makes brawlers good.....

Timberwolf with small pulses and 4 ASRM6, 2 mlas + 4 ASRM griffin, small pulse cheetha or any light who builds those, most medium pulse laser boats like the BJ and cicada, and more. Plenty of brawler or short range mechs use small/med laser for brawling. The AC20 4 ASRM atlas isnt the only brawler. I myself have a 2LL, 2mlas 4 ASRM6 atlas ,and do well in it. Pure SRM mechs also will do well vs PPC mechs. With nerfed Larg laser groups they might be even better off now.

It can be argued that ballistic/missile brawlers got nerfer but those that use lasers definitely got buffed.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

You completly ignored brawler builds in PTS3, who got buffed by better medium and small laser weapons. Try using quad ppc in brawl range and you will die. cERPPC have been too hot even when not triggering ghost heat. ED wont change that.

No i didnt. pts3 allows you to fire 4 cmplas instead of 3 and 11 slas instead of 10(idk any is mech with 11e hardpoints anyway)

Thats it...

however pts 3 did nerf all kinds of long range weapons which arent ppc...
lpl nerfs hit brawlers way more than 1 extra slas and 1 cmplas ever helped...

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

Double gauss will be still strong in PTS 3. 36 ED for 30 damage thats 8 heat.

All while you get erppc at half the weight, use leftover tonnage to pack 8-9 dhs and youre golden...
Yep gauss so viable...have i mentioned ppc got lower cooldown and doesnt explode if sneezed at??

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

However I am pretty sure you wont be convinced by any pro ED argument because from what I have seen so far you keep saying the same thing over and over again independent of anything other people say.

You never know, i might actually hear some argument better than everything i heard since this pts began...
Im willing to avoid negativity and give ppl that chance.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 September 2016 - 12:51 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Timberwolf with small pulses and 4 ASRM6, 2 mlas + 4 ASRM griffin, small pulse cheetha or any light who builds those, most medium pulse laser boats like the BJ and cicada, and more. Plenty of brawler or short range mechs use small/med laser for brawling.

The Timby only uses small pulse because you can't stack more splat on it, and even then, splat is your main weapon you should be firing in a brawl.

Your Griffin is built wrong, as you won't use the mediums hardly at all due to being heat capped not long after the brawl starts, those SHOULD be flamers if you are going to mount any energy weapons at all.

The small pulse Cheetah isn't really a brawler either, before the rescale screwed up everything, the splat Jenners were king of the brawling lights.

SPL/MPL boats have been an extremely niche group of "brawlers" in that they provided overwatch for the actual brawlers which is why you never saw more than 2 in an 8v8. The key to brawlers has always been splat since brawling finally came back into the meta, without them brawling would no longer be a viable thing outside of 4/4/0/0 sort of matches.

[Twinkleblade]

Quote

[color=#959595]No i didnt. pts3 allows you to fire 4 cmplas instead of 3 and 11 slas instead of 10(idk any is mech with 11e hardpoints anyway)[/color]

1 additional cmlas is pretty huge for most builds. Quad cermlas + 2 large pulse timby. Old build but still works. Before it got hit kinda hard now it works again. lpl nerfs should be reverted I agree shortening its burn time will help it alot. Small lasers boating ask Executioner and Nova pilots, I cant comment on those too much.

Quote

All while you get erppc at half the weight, use leftover tonnage to pack 8-9 dhs and youre golden...
Yep gauss so viable...have i mentioned ppc got lower cooldown and doesnt explode if sneezed at??

Forgot to consider velocity speed, Gauss is pretty much instant hit. Even with Extra heatsinks ERPPC will overheat after wa few shots, not too mention what happens on hot maps.(Cant always drop on Polar, Frozen city or HPG. Gauss is almost impossible to overheat in ED.
Because of this Gauss can be easily supplemented with backup weapons. ERPPC is in ED pretty much limited to ERPPC boating using something else seems too hot in combination with ERPPC

[Twinkleblade]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 12:52 PM, said:

The Timby only uses small pulse because you can't stack more splat on it, and even then, splat is your main weapon you should be firing in a brawl.

Your Griffin is built wrong, as you won't use the mediums hardly at all due to being heat capped not long after the brawl starts, those SHOULD be flamers if you are going to mount any energy weapons at all.

The small pulse Cheetah isn't really a brawler either, before the rescale screwed up everything, the splat Jenners were king of the brawling lights.

SPL/MPL boats have been an extremely niche group of "brawlers" in that they provided overwatch for the actual brawlers which is why you never saw more than 2 in an 8v8. The key to brawlers has always been splat since brawling finally came back into the meta, without them brawling would no longer be a viable thing outside of 4/4/0/0 sort of matches.

With the nerf to spread of SRM on PTS I wouldnt completly rely on pure SRM anymore, Having that little pinpoint damage to finish something off helps alot. Honestly I cant comment on competitive play in 8v8. In 12v12 puglandia being a full splat brawler while fun has alot of disadvantages. It can result in carrying the team to not doing anything if you turn a wrong corner. I tried dual flamer and 4 ASRM6 griffin 2n and love that build but my griffin 3m keeps its medium lasers. I found them more useful for harassing the back of mechs and dive for cover when I feel going all in with SRM proves too dangerous. Also abusing holes in the armor with the laser before getting into the 180m kill range has proven to be useful to me.

Isee more then enough small pulse boats in Puglandia, and do well in them. Same for medium Pulse/laser boats.

Again I am not gonna comment on competitive play, small part of the community and I am sure those guys are clever enough to abuse the ED system to its max.

Edited by Twinkleblade, 02 September 2016 - 01:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

Honestly I cant comment on competitive play in 8v8. In 12v12 puglandia being a full splat brawler while fun has alot of disadvantages.

That's solely because forcing a brawl often requires coordination that you never find in PUGs, it is the reason people complain about brawling being so rare yet those of us in comp often see it and are wary of any brawling buffs.

[Twinkleblade]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

That's solely because forcing a brawl often requires coordination that you never find in PUGs, it is the reason people complain about brawling being so rare yet those of us in comp often see it and are wary of any brawling buffs.

Would be nice to have some video footage of high level play on PTS 3. Considering you seem to be more knowledgeable then me about it would be nice if you could get something going.
This might be interesting for some here
https://www.reddit.c...oup_for_pts_30/

People trying to actually test stuff instead of theorizing about it. Sadly my download rate is pretty low so I cant participate.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

Would be nice to have some video footage of high level play on PTS 3.

It would be nice, but getting enough players for that is unfortunately tough.

[davoodoo]

Twinkleblade, on 02 September 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

1 additional cmlas is pretty huge for most builds. Quad cermlas + 2 large pulse timby. Old build but still works. Before it got hit kinda hard now it works again. lpl nerfs should be reverted I agree shortening its burn time will help it alot. Small lasers boating ask Executioner and Nova pilots, I cant comment on those too much.




Forgot to consider velocity speed, Gauss is pretty much instant hit. Even with Extra heatsinks ERPPC will overheat after wa few shots, not too mention what happens on hot maps.(Cant always drop on Polar, Frozen city or HPG. Gauss is almost impossible to overheat in ED.
Because of this Gauss can be easily supplemented with backup weapons. ERPPC is in ED pretty much limited to ERPPC boating using something else seems too hot in combination with ERPPC

Not cermlas, cmplas, pulses, wubs.
5 cermlas are still punished.
again its is slas, not clans... clans arent affected by this change at all, still 6 tops or ghost heat.
I dont know of a single is mech which uses small lasers and i dont know single is mech which might have 11e hardpoints to fire them in alpha...

Small price for all the benefits...
Also you forgot higher optimal range on erppc or lack of ammo. Tradeoffs tradeoffs...

And clan erppc boat will hardly overheat when loaded with dhs, for example warhawk, youre looking at over a minute of 30 dmg ppc alphas, or about 20seconds if you throw in another 30 dmg to chainfire which will result in each arm being fired 3-4 times for a total of 180-240 dmg. Pretty decent if you can hit with those and i wouldnt say too hawt.
Even something like shadowcat doesnt have much problem with dual ppcs(btw bb 3 erll shc, build vairety will miss you)

Gauss doesnt apply enough dmg fast enough to be worthwhile.

Gauss can be supplemented with backup weapons, same way as erppc can.
And yeah im looking at you hbk2c A which ppl run with 6 ersl and 2 erppc or something similiar.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 September 2016 - 01:51 PM.

[MadcatX]

If they came up with a simple power draw point system that was easy to remember like:

All pinpoint weapons: 1 Dmg = 1 ED
All non-pinpoint weapons: .75 Dmg = 1 ED

And then tweaked weapon damage and cooldown values to balance properly with the above (or something similar, something easy to rememeber).

If that comes around, then I might be able to convince you that it's at least... well.. as bad but not worst then GH.

Never mind, apparently now I need convincing.

Just lower the heat cap back to 30, raise heat dissipation, raise cooldowns on the bigger weapons (AC 20's, LL's, etc) to values closer to previous MW titles. Then I can convince both of us!

Edited by MadcatX, 02 September 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MadcatX, on 02 September 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

Just lower the heat cap back to 30, raise heat dissipation, raise cooldowns on the bigger weapons (AC 20's, LL's, etc) to values closer to previous MW titles. Then I can convince both of us!

I hope you mean just cooldowns like previous titles, because heat dissipation was not higher in MW4 nor did it have a heat cap of 30.

That said, the cooldowns of the larger weapons are already around what they were in at least MW4. Gauss was around 7-8 seconds, AC20/LLs were 5 seconds (if you counted the animation for lasers), PPCs were 6 seconds for the IS, etc.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2016 - 02:05 PM.