54 replies to this topic

[DJMarine]

Somewhere along the line I feel that developers, especially PGI, have lost sight of the core spirit of what a video game is in an attempt to maximize revenue. At their core video games are an escape, a fantasy and ultimately revolve around delivering a fun and limitless experience for their audience. However, when you force the player to grind in order to access the full experience, the game quickly shifts from being an escape to being a part-time job. In which you ultimately lose the freedom to have fun and enjoy the game on your own terms.

We grind all-day in real life, who wants to do the same in a game? And for what reason?

Forcing players to grind in mechs that they may not enjoy just to level up the one they do. How does this enhance the fun?

The C-Bill grind even on a premium account and winning the majority of your games is also very steep, unless you play constantly. I would love to try a missile boat or a mech equipped for scouting and targeting, too bad I can't afford to buy either. Instead I had to buy 6 mechs for the two main classes that I prefer just to advance the 2 mechs that I really like. There are so many aspects of the game I can't experience and enjoy only because I don't play 24 hours a day.

Yes, I can pay a significant premium and buy the mechs I want with real cash. Yet, even when going that route I still require 2 more mechs, that I may or may not even want in order to progress the one mech that I do. Thus, the same dilemma of endless grinding still persists so what's the point in buying anything. Even when paying a good amount of money this still doesn't allow you to escape from the grind and simply enjoy the game in its full capacity.

Want to experiment with builds and try different setups from match to match? Again, can't do it without grinding loads of cbills as even adjusting armor values will cost you. Thus restricting a significant aspect of the game.

The MWO system is so restrictive it's to the point I can't even play nor enjoy the game. I can't switch mech class, I can't experiment with different builds, instead my only option is to keep grinding with 4 mechs that I don't even want to play in the first place. What happened to letting players... I don't know, actually play the game? At least in a manner they would enjoy best instead of putting everyone into a restrictive box.

I personally don't see how such a restrictive approach is remotely beneficial for the player. I understand needing to make money, but there has to be a better balance here.

Edited by JayTac, 30 August 2016 - 01:35 PM.

[Stone Wall]

MechWarrior 3 gave you the most freedom: all the Mechs and weapons with no hard points.

MechWarrior 4 did the same but killed a little bit of fun with hard points, unless table top is your thing.

Now MWO straight up killed fun and set up new people to be ROFLstomped or they could have the same weapons/Mechs as a vet if they pay real money fast. Maybe that was the set up to make money? hmm....

[Mr Beefy]

JayTac, on 30 August 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

Somewhere along the line I feel that developers, especially PGI, have lost sight of the core spirit of what a video game is in an attempt to maximize revenue. At their core video games are an escape, a fantasy and ultimately revolve around delivering a fun and limitless experience for their audience. However, when you force the player to grind in order to access the full experience, the game quickly shifts from being an escape to being a part-time job. In which you ultimately lose the freedom to have fun and enjoy the game on your own terms.

We grind all-day in real life, who wants to do the same in a game? And for what reason?

Forcing players to grind in mechs that they may not enjoy just to level up the one they do. How does this enhance the fun?

The C-Bill grind even on a premium account and winning the majority of your games is also very steep, unless you play constantly. I would love to try a missile boat or a mech equipped for scouting and targeting, too bad I can't afford to buy either. Instead I had to buy 6 mechs for the two main classes that I prefer just to advance the 2 mechs that I really like. There are so many aspects of the game I can't experience and enjoy only because I don't play 24 hours a day.

Yes, I can pay a significant premium and buy the mechs I want with real cash. Yet, even when going that route I still require 2 more mechs, that I may or may not even want in order to progress the one mech that I do. Thus, the same dilemma of endless grinding still persists so what's the point in buying anything. Even when paying a good amount of money this still doesn't allow you to escape from the grind and simply enjoy the game in its full capacity.

Want to experiment with builds and try different setups from match to match? Again, can't do it without grinding loads of cbills as even adjusting armor values will cost you. Thus restricting a significant aspect of the game.

The MWO system is so restrictive it's to the point I can't even play nor enjoy the game. I can't switch mech class, I can't experiment with different builds, instead my only option is to keep grinding with 4 mechs that I don't even want to play in the first place. What happened to letting players... I don't know, actually play the game? At least in a manner they would enjoy best instead of putting everyone into a restrictive box.

I personally don't see how such a restrictive approach is remotely beneficial for the player. I understand needing to make money, but there has to be a better balance here.

Yes... it has killed the fun for around 3 years now.... Paul economy "working as intended"

[DaZur]

What grind?

Just play the game and before you know it you've ground out what ever you're striving for.

You approach every match like you're punching a clock and of course the grind will feel excessive.

Victories (and cart Blanc mech garage) are pretty soulless unless their earned...

Edited by DaZur, 30 August 2016 - 01:46 PM.

[Mr Beefy]

DaZur, on 30 August 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

What grind?

Just play the game and before you know it you've ground out what ever you're striving for.

You approach every match like you're punching a clock and of course the grind will feel excessive.

Victories (and cart Blanc mech garage) are pretty soulless unless their earned...

Lol.... in order for a player to advance in this game, even while spending money..... you are punching a clock. DuZur, we have been over this topic since Vas posted his thread, Earnings, and what they afford you. Unless you throw down 4-8 hour a day on this game,5-7days a week, 365 days a year, it takes FOREVER to advance and "earn" mechs and the c-bills needed to equip them and bring them up to a comp level against other players that have been "grinding" forever now.

Many of us ran the numbers off our life time stat's, myself included, figured out the hours we have put in vs. how much it has "earned" us, and it is just completely insane. One of the players that was posting on Vas's thread, before it went to K-town, after what was it 90+ pages?, had spent like over $1800 dollars on the game at that point, and was complaining just as many of us was about the snails pace progression in this game. PGI has bent players over both ways since the great income nerf and rearm and repair was gotten rid of. As an example, and something I have stated over a year ago....

When you go to sell a mech that you have "earned" through grinding, or even paying hard cash for.... I just bought 3 direwhales, and I sold off two of them, because that is normally what I do when I have mastered a mech class. I paid over 35,311,000 cbills for two of those dires.... when I sold two back... I got only around 10,000,000 back. WTF.... Seriously? I have said this for over a year now, if we could just get back 75-80% of the price we paid for selling back mechs and Items.... the grind would not be so bad, even with the "Paul economy" in full effect. This is complete BS.... and if you don't feel it, well, enjoy the grind.

You can down play this fact, as you have for over a year now, but it is what it is, and it has taken a toll on players that are vet's, and newbies alike. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt DaZur.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 30 August 2016 - 02:18 PM.

[DJMarine]

DaZur, on 30 August 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

What grind? Just play the game and before you know it you've ground out what ever you're striving for. You approach every match like you're punching a clock and of course the grind will feel excessive. Victories (and cart Blanc mech garage) are pretty soulless unless their earned...

That's the point. I wouldn't feel like I was punching a clock if the game allowed me to do whatever I feel is the most fun for me at any given time.

So I would love to 'just play the game', that's my whole point, but again I can't. The developers haven't allowed me the freedom to do so.

Edited by JayTac, 30 August 2016 - 02:14 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Does the grind ruin the fun?

No.

The grind IS the fun.

[TLBFestus]

The ridiculous mechanic whereby you have to grind out 3 variants of a mech chassis in order to fully level them is annoying as heck.

I would have much rather that PGI set it up so that you only had to level the chassis and variant you want, but make the grind longer, much like WoT/WoW did. Sure as you advance it gets really grindy, but at least you are doing it with a vehicle that you actually WANT, not so version of it that you don't like and hate using.

That still happens in WoT/WoW because you have to grind through some units to reach what you like, but MWO could have done it a bit differently to avoid that.

All that said, I think that the OP answered his own question about WHY they do it when he said he "buys the mechs he wants with cash". In other words, the grindiness made you spend money to avoid it.

"Working as intended" would be PGIs response.

[DJMarine]

TLBFestus, on 30 August 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

The ridiculous mechanic whereby you have to grind out 3 variants of a mech chassis in order to fully level them is annoying as heck.

I would have much rather that PGI set it up so that you only had to level the chassis and variant you want, but make the grind longer, much like WoT/WoW did. Sure as you advance it gets really grindy, but at least you are doing it with a vehicle that you actually WANT, not so version of it that you don't like and hate using.

That still happens in WoT/WoW because you have to grind through some units to reach what you like, but MWO could have done it a bit differently to avoid that.

All that said, I think that the OP answered his own question about WHY they do it when he said he "buys the mechs he wants with cash". In other words, the grindiness made you spend money to avoid it.

"Working as intended" would be PGIs response.

I said I could buy the mechs I want with cash, but if I were to do so that still wouldn't preclude me from having to grind. Because the grind is unavoidable whether you're spending money or not, there's actually less incentive to buy anything imo. Unless of course you go all out and spend hundreds of dollars on a small game.

In other games you spend money to avoid the grind. In MWO you spend money and still have a huge grind in front of you, so what's the point...

Personally I have not put any money into the game outside of the founders package. I refuse to spend money on something that I don't feel is remotely setup to favor the customer in the least.

[DJMarine]

Bud Crue, on 30 August 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

Does the grind ruin the fun?

No.

The grind IS the fun.

This is something I've never been able to wrap my head around. I'd be very interested in hearing you elaborate on what makes grinding fun. Would you not enjoy MWO if it didn't have an element of grinding to it? Is that a requirement for you?

[Suko]

As a long time player, the grind does not bother me, because there is none. Only once in a while do I get low on cbills, and I have plenty of "ol' favorites" in the hanger I can turn to when I feel like changing up how I'm playing.

However, as a new player, this game is horribly grinding. There is just no easy way to get a good variety of mechs, modules, and extra cash for customization without either spending a ridiculous amount of money or grinding for months.

I would love to see PGI throw heaps of easy cbills and mechs on new players. Everything is locked to an account, so I don't see what the problem is. The MW Academy is a good start, but 3 more mechbays + some free mechs should all be given to any player who has dumped at least 10 hours or more into this game. Give them something to play with early on and they might stay around for the long haul.

Another option is a really cheap "intro package". I was hoping for something like this when MWO went to Steam, but they missed their opportunity. I would offer each account a 1 time offer to purchase a "starter pack" that would come with 4 mechbays, 4 mechs (1 of each class) and a good amount of Cbills and some basic modules for ~$25. I know this is priced way below the current price structure, but that's the point. It's the one-time offer you can buy as a noob and then it's done. From then on you pay the "normal" prices the rest of us have always paid.

I've had a lot of friends get into MWO, but they can't make it past the first week due to the grind. They only can commit to ~3 hours a week and at that rate it would literally take months just to buy a Timberwolf. They soon get discouraged and are never seen again.

Edited by Suko, 30 August 2016 - 03:19 PM.

[MadcatX]

I used to be a player who mastered all the mechs I owned.

But then I eventually decided that instead of having 1 mech that is above average in comparison to it's non-elite counterpart, I'd rather have 3 different chassis with different loadouts and playstyles and the only time I'd consider eliting them is if I was having fun with it's other variants.

The grind exists but it's not necessarily mandatory unless you are part of the competitive scene or want to give yourself every little edge that you can. However if you're a good pilot, I find you'll do good with a non-elited mech anyways.

[El Bandito]

MWO would be less grindy if I could simply buy a mech and then elite it without buying two more of its chassis.

[Stone Wall]

MadcatX, on 30 August 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

I used to be a player who mastered all the mechs I owned.

But then I eventually decided that instead of having 1 mech that is above average in comparison to it's non-elite counterpart, I'd rather have 3 different chassis with different loadouts and playstyles and the only time I'd consider eliting them is if I was having fun with it's other variants.

The grind exists but it's not necessarily mandatory unless you are part of the competitive scene or want to give yourself every little edge that you can. However if you're a good pilot, I find you'll do good with a non-elited mech anyways.

I'm the same way. I don't master a single Mech because I don't play competitive and I don't need the edge. I still get the kills, but I miss a few extra "help me plz" bonuses along the way.

[Wolf Ender]

just curious here but...what is there to do in this game after you grind all your mechs out. Once you get all the cbills and you have all your mechs that you want. What is the point? What exactly is progression in this game? Unless you are a competitive FW player I don't see what it is. And with FW kinda broken at this point, I don't know what anyone sees as progression in this kind of environment.

[El Bandito]

Stone Wall, on 30 August 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

I'm the same way. I don't master a single Mech because I don't play competitive and I don't need the edge. I still get the kills, but I miss a few extra "help me plz" bonuses along the way.

TBF, non-elited, and non-mastered are different in terms of performance.

Wolf Ender, on 30 August 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

just curious here but...what is there to do in this game after you grind all your mechs out. Once you get all the cbills and you have all your mechs that you want. What is the point? What exactly is progression in this game? Unless you are a competitive FW player I don't see what it is. And with FW kinda broken at this point, I don't know what anyone sees as progression in this kind of environment.

IF one had grinded all the mechs by himself without paying real money, then he would have already played enough hours to justify getting bored from any game.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 August 2016 - 03:44 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

I honestly wouldn't mind playing with trial mechs, but the part where i have to buy two other mechs of different CTs to unlock their tier efficiencies, i think that is too hard that i have to grind about 40 million to just master a single mech.

[Bud Crue]

JayTac, on 30 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

This is something I've never been able to wrap my head around. I'd be very interested in hearing you elaborate on what makes grinding fun. Would you not enjoy MWO if it didn't have an element of grinding to it? Is that a requirement for you?

I will take your comment as you posted and expound:

The grind is not necessary at all. That is the point. If you treat the game as a grind it takes away the fun. For me the fun is in the variety of builds, the pleasure of building a mech that I like and that makes maximum use of its crit spaces and, ideally, all its hard points. The build does not have to be "good", certainly not meta, but if it is that's fine but it isn't the goal. When I play, I play each mech, old or new in sequence. Every time I win I switch to a different mech, switching between weight classes. Thus each game is a different style of play and a different role. This also assures that each mech I play takes advantage of the first win of the day 2x xp award. If I lose, I keep playing that mech, until I win; then I switch out.

I've done this for 131 mechs. Each and everyone is mastered (though I admit I only have maybe 100 unique variants since I have several duplicates of some variants where I just had to have different builds.). I don't acquire a new mech until the last one is mastered. I don't acquire a new mech until I have 20 mil c-bills saved up so as to allow me to dink around with engines, endo, ferro, etc. without to much concern (I really think that is the key...the saving up).

Right now I am holding off buying anything new as I am hoping that sometime between now and x-mas they have a module sale, but I admit the staleness of game play, especially CW has gotten to me to the point that I am not particularly excited about getting anything new and am instead thinking I will just acquire all the rest of the variants of the mechs that I have so as to "fully" master all of the chassis. To that end if a mech looks utterly redundant to something I have or I can't come up with a way to make it feel unique, I dump it or turn it into something truly odd. But again, so what if it is odd, as long as it is fun.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Been saying for a while the the c-bill grind in this game was brutal and generally made the game alot loss fun.

first we have over 400 different mech chassis we could theoretically collect and/or at least buy so we could try them out and experiment with them. That would only cost us between 4 and 6 BILLION C-bills. Then if I want to try out different engines and weapon combinations with constantly striping stuff out of the mechs I keep and play often I have to generally add around 10 million to the C-bill cost of a mech so that is around another 4 BILLION C-bills I have to come up with. Then I am going to want to mount modules for each of those mechs so again unless I want to have to strip and swap which is just a royal pain, I need probably another 10 million C-bills for each mech so there is another 4 BILLION C-bills need.

So between 12 and 14 BILLION C-bills, no sweet. I mean I can knock out an average of 200k C-bills per match so it will only take me 70,000 matches to acquire those funds.

Now on a more serious note, your not going to take things to that extreme but even if you wanted to own and collect around 100 mechs and completely outfit them with weapons, equipment and a full set of modules each so you could just join in and play whatever mech you selected instead of having to hunt and swap, your still going to need to come up with something like 3 billion credits which will still take you roughly 15,000 matches to do.

That is a hell of a grind and even if your like me and often pre-order your mechs for rather than even attempt to buy them with in game currency, the cost of outfitting and modules is still a massive amount requiring a huge amount of grinding. I mean I would love to test out my Kodiak's with something other than the stock 400XL that came with them but who the hell can afford spend 18-20 million buying a 375XL, 385XL and a 390 XL engine just to "Test" out if it is worth losing a few KPH in speed to get an extra DHS or add a TC to the mech. Hell I could easily spend 100 million just "tweaking" a mech like this but I can't justify doing so on a 200k a match income.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 30 August 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[DJMarine]

Wolf Ender, on 30 August 2016 - 03:41 PM, said:

just curious here but...what is there to do in this game after you grind all your mechs out.

Playing the actual game. I'm really starting to wonder if people are playing because the gameplay is actually fun or are there really only people coming back to grind mechs and progress on unlocks. To that I have the same question, what's the point?

I don't see the purpose in playing if it isn't primarily the gameplay that's bringing you back or keeping you interested.