164 replies to this topic

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I just can't imagine 15 damage ERPPCs sticking around.

[Exard3k]

Getting both PPCs in line to get 30 pinpoint dmg without heat penalties is ok. Nothing wrong about that. But 12 tons 4 slots vs. 21 tons and 6 slots isn't something you can solve with a 20% cooldown difference in a cooldown value where 20% isn't as important compared to a cooldown the 2-3sec range.

But getting this to the PTS is good for testing. I'm pretty sure this will prove that the C-ER-PPC need to have further adjustments.

[davoodoo]

Exard3k, on 01 September 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

Getting both PPCs in line to get 30 pinpoint dmg without heat penalties is ok. Nothing wrong about that. But 12 tons 4 slots vs. 21 tons and 6 slots isn't something you can solve with a 20% cooldown difference in a cooldown value where 20% isn't as important compared to a cooldown the 2-3sec range.

But getting this to the PTS is good for testing. I'm pretty sure this will prove that the C-ER-PPC need to have further adjustments.

ehm what??
1 ppc 3 slots 7 tons
so either 21 tons 9 slots or 14 tons 6 slots.

[Twinkleblade]

I think an increased ED for all PPC is necessary. While 12 ED for ISPPC was abit much 10 ED is too low, would like to see 11ED for testing purposes or 12 ED with increased Velocity.
With how powerful 15 damage cERPPC are, an ED of about 16-18 would be better.

[Pariah Devalis]

The damage feels good. The heat is high enough to be its own mitigation from excessive boating outside of mechs like the Warhawk which have the quirks to do it, and are designed from the ground up specifically to carry four of them. The projectile itself is still a little slow, which makes it a little more difficult to aim effectively with, as well, which is OK. It massively increased the capabilities of some lighter Clan mechs by giving them access to a single gun that hits proportionately hard, which is a godsend for things like the MLX, ADR, and IFR, as well as the SMN and potentially the Linebacker.

However, the DPS of the C-ERPPC is relatively high vs the IS versions. Bumping the cooldown to 6.25 or 6.50 seconds to the IS' 5.00 would be an acceptable trade, IMO. Clans get the hot, hard hitting, but low rate of fire C-ERPPC whilst the IS get a faster cycling but lower damage IS PPC/ERPPC.

I say this, even as the cooldown of the PTS 3 version of the C-ERPPC feels long. However, having such a long cooldown does much to force one to be extra careful with shooting them. With that much time locked out on using them, one cannot really afford to waste a shot. It becomes a wonderful high risk high reward weapon, between the heat and cooldown vs damage output.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 02 September 2016 - 03:44 AM.

[davoodoo]

Maybe im just strange, but honestly its easier for me to apply full laser duration to enemy part despite them twisting than to hit the same part with 2 ppcs against moving or twisting target.

We got 13 dmg 10 heat lpl in game, i really see no problem with 15 dmg 15 heat erppc with higher cooldown... at least theres gonna be some build variety

Edited by davoodoo, 02 September 2016 - 03:48 AM.

[Reno Blade]

Edit:
For PPC balance my suggestion today would be
without splash and less heat:
PPC 10 dmg, 8 heat, 12 draw, 5s cd
isERPPC 10 dmg, 12 heat, 14 draw, 5.4s cd
cERPPC 14 dmg, 15 heat, 16 draw, 6s cd

with splash:
PPC 8 +2 +2 dmg, 8 heat, 10 draw, 4.6s cd
isERPPC 10 +1 +1 dmg, 12 heat, 12 draw, 4.6s cd
cERPPC 12 +2.5 +2.5 dmg, 14 heat, 15 draw, 4.6s cd

I actually think that a powerfull PPC would make more fun, but I always liked the splash idea here.
Similar high draw such as Gauss could work, but I would also reduce max Energy from 30 to 25.

On PTS2 I had suggested these:

Spoiler

Reno Blade, on 28 August 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

As for PPCs:

The draw should reduce the size of volleys, while the heat/cd reduce the overall DPS (just as much as all other weapons after the 15% reduction).

My suggestion would be to either this:
PPC 10 dmg, 9 heat, 12 draw, 4.6s cd
isERPPC 10dmg, 13 heat, 12 draw, 4.6s cd
cERPPC 10 +2.5 +2.5 dmg, 14 heat, 15 draw, 4.6s cd

or something like this:
PPC 10 dmg, 8 heat, 12 draw, 5s cd
isERPPC 10dmg, 12 heat, 13 draw, 5.2s cd
cERPPC 10 +2.5 +2.5 dmg, 13 heat, 15 draw, 5.2s cd

but my favorite choice would be this with less heat, but more splash:
PPC 7 +1.5 +1.5 dmg, 8 heat, 12 draw, 4.6s cd
isERPPC 8 +1 +1 dmg, 10 heat, 13 draw, 4.6s cd
cERPPC 9 +3 +3 dmg, 12 heat, 14 draw, 4.6s cd

Edited by Reno Blade, 02 September 2016 - 07:32 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Reno Blade, on 02 September 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

For PPC balance my suggestion today would be
without splash:
PPC 10 dmg, 8 heat, 12 draw, 5s cd
isERPPC 10 dmg, 12 heat, 14 draw, 5.4s cd
cERPPC 15 dmg, 15 heat, 18 draw, 6s cd

with splash:
PPC 8 +2 +2 dmg, 10 heat, 12 draw, 4.6s cd
isERPPC 9 +1 +1 dmg, 12 heat, 14 draw, 4.6s cd
cERPPC 13 +2 +2 dmg, 15 heat, 18 draw, 4.6s cd

I actually think that a powerfull PPC would make more fun, but I always liked the splash idea here.
Similar high draw such as Gauss could work, but I would also reduce max Energy from 30 to 25.

On PTS2 I had suggested these:

Spoiler

cERPPC does not need 18 draw. Having to bring PPCs down to the point where you only fire one at a time without penalty is a clear sign the weapon is broken.

4.6 CD will make me happy reguardless, but it seems ridiculous to say no to double PPC mechs.

davoodoo, on 02 September 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

Maybe im just strange, but honestly its easier for me to apply full laser duration to enemy part despite them twisting than to hit the same part with 2 ppcs against moving or twisting target.

We got 13 dmg 10 heat lpl in game, i really see no problem with 15 dmg 15 heat erppc with higher cooldown... at least theres gonna be some build variety

That build variety is going to collapse when they jank the ED of cERPPCs up again and it just becomes a "Compact Gauss Rifle"

[Mystere]

I think it's time to give all PPCs secondary effects and possibly longer range in exchange for higher heat, ED, cooldowns, and converting 30-50% of their damage to splash. Think out of the box folks.

Edited by Mystere, 02 September 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[davoodoo]

Mystere, on 02 September 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

I think it's time to give all PPCs secondary effects and possibly longer range in exchange for higher heat, ED, cooldowns, and converting 30-50% of their damage to splash. Think out of the box folks.

Think out of the box, remember though to tick box named "viable"...

[Mystere]

davoodoo, on 02 September 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

Think out of the box, remember though to tick box named "viable"...

I don't know about you, but I think secondary effects such as:

• HUD disruption for X seconds
  
• loss of team-shared information for Y seconds
  
• loss of ECM umbrella for Z seconds (i.e. increase what we have now)
  
• loss of all targeting information
  
• heat accumulation increased by A%
  
• heat dissipation reduced by B%

with X,Y, and Z 5 seconds or longer, and A and B 30% or more, would make PPCs more than just viable.

Edited by Mystere, 02 September 2016 - 07:06 AM.

[DerMaulwurf]

Pariah Devalis, on 02 September 2016 - 03:39 AM, said:

However, the DPS of the C-ERPPC is relatively high vs the IS versions. Bumping the cooldown to 6.25 or 6.50 seconds to the IS' 5.00 would be an acceptable trade, IMO. Clans get the hot, hard hitting, but low rate of fire C-ERPPC whilst the IS get a faster cycling but lower damage IS PPC/ERPPC.

No, it isn't. Even at 6.5s of cooldown, the clan PPC would still have higher dps while being lighter. The break even point for dps per PPC is at cooldown 7.5s. And even then the clan weapon would still have better dps per ton and better heat efficiency (compared to IS-ERPPC) or better speed/range (compared to IS-PPC).

[Astrocanis]

Mystere, on 02 September 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

I don't know about you, but I think secondary effects such as:

• HUD disruption for X seconds
  
• loss of team-shared information for Y seconds
  
• loss of ECM umbrella for Z seconds (i.e. increase what we have now)
  
• loss of all targeting information
  
• heat accumulation increased by A%
  
• heat dissipation reduced by B%

with X,Y, and Z 5 seconds or longer, and A and B 30% or more, would make PPCs more than just viable.

Yes. The key is "more than just viable." In this community, viable means "best in class". Keep that in mind. I think this would be ok if it took more skill to land a ppc shot than it does to land a NARC. Otherwise, "viable" would be "completely OP".

[Mystere]

DerMaulwurf, on 02 September 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

No, it isn't. Even at 6.5s of cooldown, the clan PPC would still have higher dps while being lighter. The break even point for dps per PPC is at cooldown 7.5s. And even then the clan weapon would still have better dps per ton and better heat efficiency (compared to IS-ERPPC) or better speed/range (compared to IS-PPC).

DPS per ton is meaningless if that's the only PPC type your Mech can load (i.e. Clans), and even more meaningless if you can bring only 1. Might as well bring something else.

Edited by Mystere, 02 September 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[davoodoo]

Mystere, on 02 September 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

I don't know about you, but I think secondary effects such as:

• HUD disruption for X seconds
  
• loss of team-shared information for Y seconds
  
• loss of ECM umbrella for Z seconds (i.e. increase what we have now)
  
• loss of all targeting information
  
• heat accumulation increased by A%
  
• heat dissipation reduced by B%

with X,Y, and Z 5 seconds or longer, and A and B 30% or more, would make PPCs more than just viable.

I have my doubts, i can see it as backup debuff gun for some ac/srm boats and on some scouts but thats it.

I cant see energy boat taking high heat gun which does jack dmg which spreads all around and make debuff which debilitate only lurms which arent effective at close range anyway and energy boats.

Astrocanis, on 02 September 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Yes. The key is "more than just viable." In this community, viable means "best in class". Keep that in mind. I think this would be ok if it took more skill to land a ppc shot than it does to land a NARC. Otherwise, "viable" would be "completely OP".

yeah, no.

Weaponry isnt tiered in this game so i naturally assume everything should be equally effective in general so i also expect ppc to be as good. for huge cooldown and 15 heat vs 13 dmg 10 heat, ppfld seems just about right for me.

Edited by davoodoo, 02 September 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Wintersdark]

davoodoo, on 02 September 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

We got 13 dmg 10 heat lpl in game, i really see no problem with 15 dmg 15 heat erppc with higher cooldown... at least theres gonna be some build variety

Well, no we don't. It's 11 damage 10 heat on PTS.

[Zionkan]

Wintersdark, on 02 September 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

Well, no we don't. It's 11 damage 10 heat on PTS.

Im sure he means on live we have 13 dmg for 10 heat and we live with, while on other hand on pts we have 33 dmg for 30 heat @ 1.2 seconds with 3 lpls

[Monkey Lover]

davoodoo, on 02 September 2016 - 03:45 AM, said:

Maybe im just strange, but honestly its easier for me to apply full laser duration to enemy part despite them twisting than to hit the same part with 2 ppcs against moving or twisting target.

We got 13 dmg 10 heat lpl in game, i really see no problem with 15 dmg 15 heat erppc with higher cooldown... at least theres gonna be some build variety

Atleast the lpl spreads dmg on mediums and lights the issue I see is the 30 pin point. Light Q will basically go away if there is 3-6 daul gauss (2x cerppc) on each team. Mediums will end up running more STD engines with laser spam.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 02 September 2016 - 07:40 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Deathlike, on 01 September 2016 - 08:08 PM, said:

If we used tabletop to balance things... there would be no need of an IS LL when the Clan ERMED is superior.

Holding to those values for dear life is not productive.

Except of course...you could not install the Clan ER Medium on the Inner Sphere mechs, outside of fictional fluff in the games used to pump up the lore of units like the kell hounds and wolf's dragoons. How previously MW videogames handled the tech differences didn't make it canon rules for the tabletop game. For the clans, standard lasers became obsolete when they developed their ER and Pulse versions, aside from using them on second line / garrison mechs, vehicles and battle armor.

[Zionkan]

Monkey Lover, on 02 September 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Atleast the lpl spreads dmg on mediums and lights the issue I see is the 30 pin point. Light Q will basically go away if there is 3-6 daul gauss (2x cerppc) on each team. Mediums will end up running more STD engines with laser spam.

While its true that 30 pinpoint dmg are nasty on lights my stats say that im hitting 55% with ppcs and about 85% with lpulses (ok not all the damage lands on target tho), not sure what better then.