164 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

davoodoo, on 02 September 2016 - 12:51 AM, said:

ehm what??
1 ppc 3 slots 7 tons
so either 21 tons 9 slots or 14 tons 6 slots.

Inner Sphere PPCs and ER PPCs are 3 slots / 7 tons, clan ER PPCs are 2 slots / 6 tons...hence....21 & 9 vs 12 & 4 for the same 30 points of direct damage.

[Wintersdark]

Zionkan, on 02 September 2016 - 07:34 AM, said:

Im sure he means on live we have 13 dmg for 10 heat and we live with, while on other hand on pts we have 33 dmg for 30 heat @ 1.2 seconds with 3 lpls

Fair enough.

Still, I'm firmly on board with 15 damage cERPPC's. They'll need a longer cooldown, and maybe higher draw as well to curtail boating, but I think 15 damage cERPPC's really make a lot of Clam mechs viable (note the difference between viable and optimal) that are currently just junk.

[Dee Eight]

Mystere, on 02 September 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

I think it's time to give all PPCs secondary effects and possibly longer range in exchange for higher heat, ED, cooldowns, and converting 30-50% of their damage to splash. Think out of the box folks.

You do KNOW they all disrupt the ECM of mechs so equipped already upon impact right ?

[Wintersdark]

Dee Eight, on 02 September 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

Inner Sphere PPCs and ER PPCs are 3 slots / 7 tons, clan ER PPCs are 2 slots / 6 tons...hence....21 & 9 vs 12 & 4 for the same 30 points of direct damage.

With cERPPC's having a longer cooldown and higher draw, you'd have massive heat for a 30pt strike from cERPPC's, and comparable or higher DPS from the PPC's, so there's that.

[Mystere]

Dee Eight, on 02 September 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

You do KNOW they all disrupt the ECM of mechs so equipped already upon impact right ?

Did you miss this part:

Mystere, on 02 September 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

• loss of ECM umbrella for Z seconds (i.e. increase what we have now)

from this post:

Mystere, on 02 September 2016 - 07:04 AM, said:

I don't know about you, but I think secondary effects such as:

• HUD disruption for X seconds
  
• loss of team-shared information for Y seconds
  
• loss of ECM umbrella for Z seconds (i.e. increase what we have now)
  
• loss of all targeting information
  
• heat accumulation increased by A%
  
• heat dissipation reduced by B%

with X,Y, and Z 5 seconds or longer, and A and B 30% or more, would make PPCs more than just viable.

<shrugs>

Edited by Mystere, 02 September 2016 - 07:55 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Rather than changing the cERPPC, why not just go the route of MW4?

IS PPC:
* Damage: 12.5 (draw stays 1:1)
* Heat: 12.5 (could be lower if more of the PPC heat gen quirks were done away with)
* Recycle: 4.5
* Minimum Range: 0 (seriously, this has needed to happen for a long time)

IS ERPPC:
* Damage 12.5 (draw stays 1:1)
* Heat: 15 (could be lower if more of the PPC heat gen quirks were done away with)
* Recycle: 5.25

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[Dee Eight]

Monkey Lover, on 02 September 2016 - 07:39 AM, said:

Atleast the lpl spreads dmg on mediums and lights the issue I see is the 30 pin point. Light Q will basically go away if there is 3-6 daul gauss (2x cerppc) on each team. Mediums will end up running more STD engines with laser spam.

That's only because people using them in this game tend not to pause to AIM properly, so they splash the pulses around the target rather than put them into ONE location. A lot of the time you don't even need to be torso twisting yourself, as so many players never stop that behavior themselves you can virtually guarantee they'll hit you all over. I faced a jenner last night who shot me at close range with 4 medium pulse lasers while I was standing still. I wasn't even aware he was there yet. He hit 5 different armor locations on me with his volley. I initially thought I'd been hit by some clan ER-PPCs the splash was over so many areas.

Edited by Dee Eight, 02 September 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[East Indy]

By itself, the Clan ER PPC is fine with 15 pinpoint damage.

The problem is when we automatically assume we're going to be firing two or more simultaneously because MWO has always let us. Then it turns into 30 pinpoint damage, and we get all kinds of distortion like long cooldowns and glacial velocity and splash damage. . . . Which in turn makes a single weapon even less valuable, makes us try to equalize it with Inner Sphere PPCs, and on and on in a circle of missing the point.

Enter Energy Draw. Lower Energy max to 20, and suddenly 15 pinpoint damage makes all the sense in the world, since Inner Sphere can fire two of either PPC type with no penalty but less efficiency. Since nobody's trying to strap a million PPCs together anymore, you don't need slowpitch softball velocity or an awkwardly long cooldown, either. 'Mechs like the Awesome and Warhawk are still valuable because everyone is now firing big weapons in volleys, and each 'Mech's quirks give them big advantages over time.

People keep crying "But muh alphas" and PGI keeps trying to accommodate that by making weapons weak, and is stuck in a spiral that won't solve the problem.

15 pinpoint damage is fine if you have the right system.

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 02 September 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

Except of course...you could not install the Clan ER Medium on the Inner Sphere mechs, outside of fictional fluff in the games used to pump up the lore of units like the kell hounds and wolf's dragoons. How previously MW videogames handled the tech differences didn't make it canon rules for the tabletop game. For the clans, standard lasers became obsolete when they developed their ER and Pulse versions, aside from using them on second line / garrison mechs, vehicles and battle armor.

That's not the point. If a 1 ton, 1 crit weapon obsoletes a staple weapon such as the IS LL that is 5 tons, 2 crits... it would just be easier to use Clan mechs+tech outright.

You might as well make most IS mechs irrelevant.

If you want to balance like that, sure... go for it.. while noone who wants balance wants to play the game.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 September 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Wintersdark, on 02 September 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

Still, I'm firmly on board with 15 damage cERPPC's. They'll need a longer cooldown, and maybe higher draw as well to curtail boating, but I think 15 damage cERPPC's really make a lot of Clam mechs viable (note the difference between viable and optimal) that are currently just junk.

As a primarily IS player, I'm also on board with a 15 damage C-ERPPC, as it's one of the most common weapons seen on clan mechs. Here's how I would balance it.

Cooldown: 7 seconds (2.1 DPS vs 2 DPS for IS PPCs)

Draw: 20-25, this would discourage 2ERPPC alphas for 30 damage. IS PPCs with 12 or so draw can dual fire them without issue, where the Clan PPC would have to fire both separately.

Charge mechanic: This would de-sync it with Gauss Rifles, and promote its use as a long range weapon, while IS PPCs fare better at brawling.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gentleman Reaper, on 02 September 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

Draw: 20-25, this would discourage 2ERPPC alphas for 30 damage. IS PPCs with 12 or so draw can dual fire them without issue, where the Clan PPC would have to fire both separately.

This would remove cERPPCs from play, I'm just letting this be known now. Having to chain fire a weapon that is as hot as the ERPPC is bascially means it is worthless.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[kapusta11]

Just don't get too excited, 15 damage cERPPCs won't stick.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

This would remove cERPPCs from play, I'm just letting this be known now. Having to chain fire a weapon that is as hot as the ERPPC is bascially means it is worthless.

There is a reason why having no less than a pair of PPCs (in damage and firing in tandem) is pointless when you have even laservomit being more efficient in dealing damage or trading with...

It's effectively saying you like trading 10 damage (1 PPC) for 10+ damage to yourself through cumulative laservomit (if you're not doing at least 20 pts of a laservomit alpha in countering, you're doing it wrong anyways). Maybe it's just simple math, but 10+ > 10.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

This would remove cERPPCs from play, I'm just letting this be known now. Having to chain fire a weapon that is as hot as the ERPPC is bascially means it is worthless.

Not in the least, with a 7 second cooldown it would have significantly better heat management for the damage compared to IS PPCs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gentleman Reaper, on 02 September 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Not in the least, with a 7 second cooldown it would have significantly better heat management for the damage compared to IS PPCs.

Just because a single ERPPC has a 7 second cooldown doesn't mean you won't be firing more, especially if you are forced to chain fire.

Not only would you lose trades due to being outdamage on a per shot basis, but your DPS is going to be limited by both cooldown and heat compared to DPS builds. Can we please stop trying to make energy weapons something they aren't (DPS weapons)?

Don't get me wrong, on mediums and lights, 15 damage PPCs are insane, but assaults and heavies don't really benefit from this just like they haven't benefited from anything not dakka related since PTS2 began.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[East Indy]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

This would remove cERPPCs from play

No, it wouldn't, because every other weapon would be interacting with 20 max Energy Draw.

Imagine a Clan ER PPC with 1500 velocity, 4-second cooldown, and tell me why other weapons would automatically be chosen instead of it when contending with 20 max Energy Draw.

[Deathlike]

Gentleman Reaper, on 02 September 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Not in the least, with a 7 second cooldown it would have significantly better heat management for the damage compared to IS PPCs.

I don't see cooldown actually improving heat management. It just means you're forced to wait until you can shoot again. Even if there was no cooldown, you would be forced to stop on heat alone (unless you're suicidal and don't care).

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Just because a single ERPPC has a 7 second cooldown doesn't mean you won't be firing more, especially if you are forced to chain fire.

Not only would you lose trades due to being outdamage on a per shot basis, but your DPS is going to be limited by both cooldown and heat compared to DPS builds. Can we please stop trying to make energy weapons something they aren't (DPS weapons)?

I dunno man, some people claim Gauss is a DPS weapon.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 September 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

East Indy, on 02 September 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

No, it wouldn't, because every other weapon would be interacting with 20 max Energy Draw.

Imagine a Clan ER PPC with 1500 velocity, 4-second cooldown, and tell me why other weapons would automatically be chosen instead of it when contending with 20 max Energy Draw.

First, what are you even talking about because I was not even responding to your weird 20 max energy draw scenario, nor one with 4 second cooldown 1500m/s velocity.

Second, even then, they would still be bad outside of mediums because dakka is better. You simply can't spam a PPC as easily as dakka unless we start bumping up dissipation to allow heat neutral builds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 02 September 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

I don't see cooldown actually improving heat management.

It technically does, as it lowers your potential heat per second making the weapon a bit more heat efficient if fired on cooldown. However it doesn't help enough to make it a viable weapon in that sort of situation.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 September 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Deathlike]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 02 September 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

It technically does, as it lowers your potential heat per second making the weapon a bit more heat efficient if fired on cooldown. However it doesn't help enough to make it a viable weapon in that sort of situation.

I mean, there should be a cooldown and a high one. However, heat is what's limiting the output ultimately. I mean, you can't really use that same argument for Gauss... since that generates next to no heat... and the only actual thing limiting it is cooldown (this is before we talk about other requirements).

Edited by Deathlike, 02 September 2016 - 08:53 AM.