30 replies to this topic

[JadeWolf01]

So I expect that this is the opposite of what most people want, but I don't know what else to do. So heat scale fixes boating but not alpha. Energy draw fixes alpha but not boating. So why not use both or do something else entirely. Each individually works at fixing different issues. Neither does both. Neither system is perfect at what they accomplish. I wish I had a great solution to both of these issues with one mechanic that is easy to understand, but I don't.

[Spleenslitta]

There are multiple ideas scattered around inside the PTS feedback section. Very few of them are so simple that they can be explained within a few sentences.
The best ideas tend to be textwalls and they also tend to have tremendous potential for various ways they can be adjusted.

Take this one for example.
MWO: Forums - What If We Have 3 Bars?

It's complex and it would be hard to keep an eye on four different bars. Heat, ballistic, missile and power draw bar.
Especially when you look at what i added to the idea in post 2#.
Programming and balancing it would take a looot of work but the potential is amazing.

There are many other ideas but few of them go beyond being bandaid solutions.

[Wintersdark]

Because boating isn't actually a problem?

Many mechs are intended to boat, after all.

Boating only really is an issue when people are building superweapons (massed banks of identical weapons fired together) but even that is curtailed by ED in the same way it was with Ghost Heat - you can take 12 ERML's, but you can't fire them all together. Having taken 12 ERML's isn't a problem though if you're not firing them all together.

[AnTi90d]

They can link weapons together in ghost heat, which would provide build diversity while also reducing boating.

A medium laser could count as 0.5 of a large laser.. an AC5 could count as 0.5 of an AC10.. The game is moderately balanced with ghost heat, and the only thing people complain about are "workarounds" that could be easily fixed with further weapon linking.. especially if it isn't 1:1.. and then further explained by writing better tooltips or providing more information in the mechlab.

[Spleenslitta]

@AnTi90d.

I get it. That would be one way to fix GH that allows boating while encouraging mixed builds. Easily explained in a few sentences to booth.
Let's look at the relation between the different sizes of lasers. Numbers are examples only.
SL is 0.2 of an LL. ML is 0.5 of LL.

Problems would be mechs that are meant to boat like the Black Knight which only has energy slots for example.
They could have bonus points in energy available. For example it can mount 2 whole points above the normal energy weapon limit before getting Ghost Heat.
Unclear explanation?

Edited by Spleenslitta, 03 September 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[AnTi90d]

Also, I think the ED ding sound could be used to either ding when you go over the GH limit.. or when 0.5 seconds have passed and GH is reset.. or disabled through the menu.

I don't think people would hate GH as much if it just told you more info in the mechlab. PGI's mechlab is so anemic on information. It doesn't tell you max heat generated with an alphastrike, heat dissipation / second or even DPS of your weapons like LeeSong's or Smurfy's does.

[Wintersdark]

AnTi90d, on 03 September 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

They can link weapons together in ghost heat, which would provide build diversity while also reducing boating.

A medium laser could count as 0.5 of a large laser.. an AC5 could count as 0.5 of an AC10.. The game is moderately balanced with ghost heat, and the only thing people complain about are "workarounds" that could be easily fixed with further weapon linking.. especially if it isn't 1:1.. and then further explained by writing better tooltips or providing more information in the mechlab.

Except that isn't how ghost heat works at all. That's a whole new design.

[Spleenslitta]

Wintersdark, on 03 September 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Except that isn't how ghost heat works at all. That's a whole new design.

Whole new design or not one thing is for certain - When properly balanced it would allow boating but also allow mixed range and mixed weapon type builds to have their own perks.
As a bonus it's explained within a few sentences. I have nearly always made textwalls when i manage to figure out an idea that actually works.

[AnTi90d]

Wintersdark, on 03 September 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Except that isn't how ghost heat works at all. That's a whole new design.

Large Lasers are linked with Large Pulse and ER Large 1:1.. but Medium Lasers aren't linked with Medium Pulse.

The system is coded to work in this manner, but PGI just hasn't thought of how to patch the holes in it.. or how to better explain it in the mechlab.

[Wintersdark]

AnTi90d, on 03 September 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Large Lasers are linked with Large Pulse and ER Large 1:1.. but Medium Lasers aren't linked with Medium Pulse.

The system is coded to work in this manner, but PGI just hasn't thought of how to patch the holes in it.. or how to better explain it in the mechlab.

It's not that they're linked 1:1; the way weapons belong to linked groups is more complicated. Weapons cannot belong to multiple groups (that's a fundamental aspect of the design of the system) and belonging to a weapon group does not just impact how many you can fire, it's used to determine what the penalties are for exceeding limits and such too.

I respect where you're trying to go with this, but understand that it's not a minor change of GH, you're proposing a wholly new system.

That's fine and all, but it's not going to happen.

I wish I could still have hope that new systems proposed whole cloth could have any chance of actual implementation, but 4 years have shown me that no, that won't happen... particularly not when they have a system they've already spent a lot of time developing already.

Edited by Wintersdark, 03 September 2016 - 09:04 AM.

[Wintersdark]

AnTi90d, on 03 September 2016 - 08:54 AM, said:

Large Lasers are linked with Large Pulse and ER Large 1:1.. but Medium Lasers aren't linked with Medium Pulse.

Wait, upon re-reading this, what the heck is your point?

Clan ERML, MPL, ERSL, and SPL are all linked, IS MPL's aren't linked with anything; it's not really relevant. MPL's *could* be linked to ML's if PGI felt so inclined.

The system is designed so weapons can only belong to one group, and that's the fundamental failing of the system.

[kapusta11]

Ghost heat does the job, just add a few more linked penalty groups if the need is that geat.

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 03 September 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Ghost heat does the job, just add a few more linked penalty groups if the need is that geat.

You can't. You can't link, for example, ML and LPL.

[kapusta11]

Wintersdark, on 03 September 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

You can't. You can't link, for example, ML and LPL.

Why not? And what's the problem with ML and LPLs to begin with?

Edited by kapusta11, 03 September 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 03 September 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

Why not?

See, when you don't understand how the system works, you're really not in a place to be saying what "PGI should just do" to fix it.

You can't, because weapons only belong to one group. If you added cERML to the Large Energy group (with cLPL), for example, then cERML and cERSL would no longer be linked (to the glee of Nova pilots everywhere). Or if you added cLPL to the Small Energy Group, then you could fire as many ERLL+LPL together as you like.

Each weapon can belong to only one group, and when you fire grouped weapons the factor used in calculating the heat penalty is the highest factor from all the linked weapons.

Changing this is clearly non-trivial, because that's been the main problem with Ghost Heat from it's very inception and was pointed out and acknowledged even before GH was fully implemented. However, when GH was implemented, the primary rush was to break massed PPC hits which was viewed as a very serious problem that needed fixing FAST. It was extended to limit alphas to ~30 damage, as much as it could be done anyways within the limits of the system.


As to ML and LPL, I'm not pointing out specific problems, just trying to show how the system works.

I'm not going to get into specific problems, because frankly that's a waste of time. You may not feel larger alphas are a problem (I personally didn't think it was a problem even during the 4+ PPC days pre-ghost heat!) but The Powers That Be *do* feel that (and it was a stated goal of GH, it just didn't work well for it). Russ has *always* wanted a roughly 30pt alpha cap.

[kapusta11]

Wintersdark, on 03 September 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

See, when you don't understand how the system works, you're really not in a place to be saying what "PGI should just do" to fix it.

You can't, because weapons only belong to one group. If you added cERML to the Large Energy group (with cLPL), for example, then cERML and cERSL would no longer be linked (to the glee of Nova pilots everywhere). Or if you added cLPL to the Small Energy Group, then you could fire as many ERLL+LPL together as you like.

Each weapon can belong to only one group, and when you fire grouped weapons the factor used in calculating the heat penalty is the highest factor from all the linked weapons.

Changing this is clearly non-trivial, because that's been the main problem with Ghost Heat from it's very inception and was pointed out and acknowledged even before GH was fully implemented. However, when GH was implemented, the primary rush was to break massed PPC hits which was viewed as a very serious problem that needed fixing FAST. It was extended to limit alphas to ~30 damage, as much as it could be done anyways within the limits of the system.


As to ML and LPL, I'm not pointing out specific problems, just trying to show how the system works.

I'm not going to get into specific problems, because frankly that's a waste of time. You may not feel larger alphas are a problem (I personally didn't think it was a problem even during the 4+ PPC days pre-ghost heat!) but The Powers That Be *do* feel that (and it was a stated goal of GH, it just didn't work well for it). Russ has *always* wanted a roughly 30pt alpha cap.

MLs have a cap of 6
LPLs have a cap of 3
MLs and LPLs linked together with a max of 6

Fire 4 LPLs and 2MLs - trigger LPL penalty
Fire 3 LPLS and 4 ML - trigger linked penalty
Fire 1 LPL and 7 MLs - trigger both, ML and linked penalty

Same thing with Gauss and PPCs

You obviously have no idea how programming works so don't accuse people of not knowing how the system works.

[AnTi90d]

..only a blithering idiot would want to limit alphastrikes to 30 damage in a Battletech game.

[Wintersdark]

AnTi90d, on 03 September 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

..only a blithering idiot would want to limit alphastrikes to 30 damage in a Battletech game.

Battletech alpha strikes are spread over 10 seconds of fire and hit multiple components randomly. Next.

[MechaBattler]

I've been saying it since the first pts phase. They should just combine them. But not to the degree that GH goes to. Just a small additional energy draw cost for boating the same weapons.

Frankly, don't care if some mechs were made for boating. Some mechs don't have a choice but to run mix build and it's usually to their detriment.

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 03 September 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

MLs have a cap of 6
LPLs have a cap of 3
MLs and LPLs linked together with a max of 6

Fire 4 LPLs and 2MLs - trigger LPL penalty
Fire 3 LPLS and 4 ML - trigger linked penalty
Fire 1 LPL and 7 MLs - trigger both, ML and linked penalty

Same thing with Gauss and PPCs

You obviously have no idea how programming works so don't accuse people of not knowing how the system works.

You don't "link ML and LPL", ghost heat is designed with weapons being assigned to an existing weapon group, which may either be a big group (cERML) or one in which they are the only entry (see: IS MPL). They are not linked to other weapons at all, and are only a member of one group.

Now, before insulting people, open up the XML that defines this, it's the base weapon stats. Every weapon belongs to one and only one linked heat group. That's it. That's how the system works.

To link ML and LPL, you MUST assign ML to the Large Energy Group or assign LPL to the Small Energy Group. In either case, the weapon no longer belongs to its prior group.

As well, factor isn't the number of weapons fired, it's the heat penalty factor. So this isn't about how many you fire, it's about the penalties for exceeding the limits. The factor used is always the highest of the fired weapons, then multiplied by the sum of the heat generated by the fired weapons. This is fine when the weapons are similar, but breaks down when they're different.