27 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

As it says...please be honest.

EDIT: Per request...I edited to split Gauss and PPCs into separate poll topics.

Edited by Gyrok, 06 September 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Gyrok, on 04 September 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

As it says...please be honest.

As if anyone is going to TELL you that they're voting against GH on principle. At least in my poll I was stealthy about demonstrating bias in the GH vs ED question.

[Pariah Devalis]

I voted "do not have an opinion" on several, not because I do not have an opinion but because the options given were too broad or did not match mine. Specifically, in cases where it's about a wash, or else I don't think it is over/under performing in one of the two systems. Or in mixed cases, like the Gauss/ERPPC case.

Lasers feel weaker under ED since you cannot bypass the limitations like you can in GH, but I don't think they feel weak, and, if anything, they felt too good in GH because of how gameable GH is. The Gauss feels TOO GOOD with ED, but only because they removed the charge up mechanism. It's very hard to judge that weapon system because they changed it up so much as a result. The C-ERPPC feels way underwhelming in GH, but it has been altered so much for the ED test that even though I generally enjoy the C-ERPPC in the ED PTS, it is a totally different beast (like... actually is the weapon it should have been) to the live version and cannot be adequately compared. In both the Gauss and C-ERPPC case, then, it is an apples to oranges comparison due to how altered both are.

Other things are a little hazy, like the SRM and AC comparisons. I mean, in the context of the ED 30 damage limit, I feel both are pretty good, except for the global 8 second UAC jam shenanigans. ED changes the whole context in which one must judge them, because the other weapons are also being restricted by the ED limitations. Having a reduced ED load for SRMs is fantastic, though perhaps the 20% increased spread is unnecessary. On the same note, however, something like, say, 4xSRM6 triggers Ghost Heat but not ED. Hard to compare, but they feel good to me in the context of ED.

As to what I specifically answered?

Yes, I do feel ED is the better of the two systems, even though I also feel it is more complex. GH is annoyingly vague, whereas ED illustrates its complexity clearly. In other words, it has more under the hood, but it displays it clearly and logically. PPFLD has a higher tax, and the more spread something has the lower the draw, and can be easily tested with the very visible energy draw gauge. Meanwhile GH is extremely selective over what weapons are linked to what, and god help you if you cross the line, however because it IS so selective it is extremely easy to bypass for higher than intended damage output.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 September 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Cementi]

No opinion on the gauss ppc poll as they should not be linked. I'm happy with both except ppcs of all types need a velocity buff so the velocity quirks are not nesesary.

Also I voted to spend time to develop ED though I would prefer a proper heat scale with a heat cap that was not modified I have given up hope that that will ever happen.

I also feel that ED replenishes to fast. Only a slight hesitation is needed to refill it. Only time it s noticed other than planning my alphas is when double tapping uac's.

[davoodoo]

I feel like option is under/overperforming in x but its fine in y is missing.

[Gentleman Reaper]

davoodoo, on 04 September 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

I feel like option is under/overperforming in x but its fine in y is missing.

There should also be an option for "is balanced with both ED and GH"

[Pariah Devalis]

Gentleman Reaper, on 04 September 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

There should also be an option for "is balanced with both ED and GH"

As well as options for "overpowered with ED but balanced with GH," as well as "is overpowered with GH but balanced with ED." And probably an underpowered version of each, too. All the options presented are "both."

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 04 September 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

I'm sure some people are using the "GH has it about right already" as a substitute for is balanced in both, not sure why there isn't a "is balanced in ED, but X in GH", that seems to skew the results immensely, you should redo the poll with more options Gyrok.

[Davers]

Im not sure SRMs and SSRMs should be in the same category. Are IS players comparing SSRM2s to SRM6?

[Tarl Cabot]

The ED with a more lax approach, closer to the initial ED, would work better if the HeatScale had actual meaning other than oh oh @ 100%+ and that its capacity did not have the ability to almost double itself simply by using DHS vs SHS. Set a base 30-40 then allow HS to increase the capacity only marginally.

Edit - Even with a lower capacity limit, the real issue there is still nothing to alter a player's behavior/usage while heat is increasing or while the player rides that red line. So a lower cap on capacity, a player alters payload to have a more steady DPS after an alpha but the mech is still moving at the same pace at 99% as it does right after landing into the drop zone.

Or view it in a different way, that player fires his first alpha but that lands him in the 2nd heat threshold, dropping his movement/agility. Unless his target is standing still the player will have a more difficult time keeping his crosshairs on the target, while also creating a setup where he is now putting his mech at risk cause now it can not MOVE as quickly nor REACT as quickly to any incoming fire, thus taking longer to return to cover and not able to torso twist as quickly to better spread incoming damage.

There needs to be other consequences other than shutting down/internal damage will blowing your top. Then the ED can be used to close loopholes, ie ERPPC+GR, or whatever value PGI wants to use to put a soft limit on alpha damage, or risk putting the player in an uncompromising position.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 04 September 2016 - 10:42 PM.

[Reno Blade]

If we have a working ED and later add the TT-heat effects (e.g. slower movement and agility over 50% heat), would that make the system good, or even great then?
Hell, we even might need to increase the heat cap to actually not run into penalties every time we shoot.

I hope and I actually expect this to happen that way from all the past discussions with PGI and NGNG about heat scale.

EDIT: There are no "ED has it about right" options

Edited by Reno Blade, 05 September 2016 - 02:42 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Reno Blade, on 05 September 2016 - 02:11 AM, said:

EDIT: There are no "ED has it about right" options

Unsure, but me thinks there is some unintentional bias in the poll by Gyrok. It's a bit skewed in favor of GH due to the options presented. And yet ED is still edging out GH in the very first section of the poll, which tells ya something.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 September 2016 - 02:58 AM.

[davoodoo]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 September 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

And yet ED is still edging out GH in the very first section of the poll, which tells ya something.

1st question 8:8 for gh and ed

2nd question 10 for gh less complex vs 6 for ed less complex

and every weapon system got most votes in gh had it right...

and even for last question ed is tied with forget about these bandaids...

So what are you talking about??

Edited by davoodoo, 05 September 2016 - 03:08 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

davoodoo, on 05 September 2016 - 03:01 AM, said:

1st question 8:8 for gh and ed

2nd question 10 for gh less complex vs 6 for ed less complex

and every weapon system got most votes in gh had it right...

and even for last question ed is tied with forget about these bandaids...

So what are you talking about??

Pariah Devalis, on 05 September 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

Unsure, but me thinks there is some unintentional bias in the poll by Gyrok. It's a bit skewed in favor of GH due to the options presented. And yet ED is still edging out GH in the very first section of the poll, which tells ya something.

Pariah Devalis, on 05 September 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

And yet ED is still edging out GH in the very first section of the poll, which tells ya something.

Pariah Devalis, on 05 September 2016 - 02:57 AM, said:

...very first section of the poll....

Clear enough for ya?

And literally each and every poll relating to relative balance is GH skewed. No option says ED is better or gets it about right. They only infer it is over/under powered.

I have not had my second cup of coffee this morning, yet. Don't intentionally misconstrue my words, please.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 September 2016 - 03:06 AM.

[davoodoo]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 September 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

Clear enough for ya?

And literally each and every poll relating to relative balance is GH skewed. No option says ED is better or gets it about right. They only infer it is over/under powered.

I have not had my second cup of coffee this morning, yet. Don't intentionally misconstrue my words, please.

Very first section

again
1st question tied with gh
2nd question gh wins 10 to 6...

[Pariah Devalis]

davoodoo, on 05 September 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

Very first section

again
1st question tied with gh
2nd question gh wins 10 to 6...

27% < 33%, man.

I favor GH slightly more than ED/PD and think some adjustments plus UI indicators would be a good start (5 votes [27.78%])
I favor ED/PD slightly more and feel like it needs adjustments (6 votes [33.33%])

So despite the loaded questions, that's the only one of the polls that actually is unbiased. And glad for it, too, considering it is the most cut and dry. Being COMPLEX is not a negative, as long as it is well communicated and does its job, as ED is. GH is simple, but poorly communicated and extremely gameable as a system. Yet hilariously, the complexity poll is tied, there.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 September 2016 - 03:15 AM.

[davoodoo]

Pariah Devalis, on 05 September 2016 - 03:14 AM, said:

27% < 33%, man.

I favor GH slightly more than ED/PD and think some adjustments plus UI indicators would be a good start (5 votes [27.78%])
I favor ED/PD slightly more and feel like it needs adjustments (6 votes [33.33%])

So despite the loaded questions, that's the only one of the polls that actually is unbiased. And glad for it, too, considering it is the most cut and dry. Being COMPLEX is not a negative, as long as it is well communicated and does its job, as ED is. GH is simple, but poorly communicated and extremely gameable as a system. Yet hilariously, the complexity poll is tied, there.

I think GH is fine and needs UI adjustment to be more plainly visible (3 votes [16.67%])
and
I favor GH slightly more than ED/PD and think some adjustments plus UI indicators would be a good start (5 votes [27.78%])
3+5=8

I favor ED/PD slightly more and feel like it needs adjustments (6 votes [33.33%])
and
I think ED/PD is great as it stands (2 votes [11.11%])
2+6=8

well selling point of ed was it being less complex than gh, well not anymore it isnt...
If ed being complex is not negative then in the same way gh being complex also isnt negative...

and again you cant even read polls...
little less means its less
alot less also means its less
4+6 vs 6+0.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 September 2016 - 03:22 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I missed those two (I blame lack of coffee). In which case, tied is still far and away better than what half the general discussion and general grumbling would have you believe. You'd think it was the coming of the Anti-Christ with some people. From a purely objective based perspective, however, it comes down to GH failing to do what it set out to do, being the limitation of maximum alpha damage, and ED succeeding at it. That, alone, should be cut and dry for favor of the system as a general concept.

It's also something that was heavily favored by the community when Homeless Bill suggested it years ago, and whenever a player brought it up. Yet suddenly it's the devil when PGI tests it. It reminds me of when politicians repackage competing parties' ideas, and suddenly get blasted by those same competing parties despite it originally being their idea in the first place.

Edit: The point of ED was not to be less complex. It was to fill in the exploitable gaps in GH. Gaps which lead Russ to very clearly and publicly state IT FAILED at its purpose in the Town Halls.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 September 2016 - 03:27 AM.

[davoodoo]

Putting your opinion in poll doesnt mean you can put argument on why you believe what you believe.

1 is unrelated to the other...

Basically ppl say in the poll that they like ed, but when it comes to arguments why ed is better they present little to none.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 September 2016 - 03:30 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

davoodoo, on 05 September 2016 - 03:27 AM, said:

Putting your opinion in poll doesnt mean you can put argument on why you believe what you believe.

1 is unrelated to the other...

Please clarify. Polls are nothing but opinion. The only opinions worth having are ones you can back up with an argument. If one has opinions based on nothing but feels, they are without foundation, and thus pointless.

Quote

Basically ppl say in the poll that they like ed, but when it comes to arguments why ed is better they present little to none.

Thanks for that clarification. Given all the weapon specific polls are skewed, it doesn't give polsters a chance to support the ED choice on any of them. Like I said initially, this is a very flawed set of polls, here. I know I very clearly stated my argument for ED. However, to do so, I had to also acknowledge that the poll choices I was forced to select did not match up with my perspective.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 September 2016 - 03:33 AM.