183 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

What? No.

I don't understand why this is so confusing for people.

FP is still FP, they're just adding the regular game modes to it in addition to invasion and counter attack. So now there will be 6 12v12 game modes instead of 2. They will feature dropship respawns as per Invasion because they all need to work together. Well, and scouting, but that's a separate queue. The 6 main game modes will share a queue in FP, the main planetary conquest queue.

Right. So what would even be the point of the regular QP queue? People are going to drop in the FP queue if the waits are shorter and you get FP rewards.

It is obvious that the game no longer caters to me or my demographic.
It was (mostly) fun while it lasted...

[Zolaz]

Guess the Community Warfare that was promised 4 years ago will never be coming. Bittervets and Black Knights called it long ago.

[C E Dwyer]

Well F.W is well and truly Bucketed now..

Rather than give it some balls, they neuter it.

[Johnny Z]

Lehmund, on 08 September 2016 - 06:49 AM, said:

I didn't get that Event Queue part, but if it is like what you describe here, and kept on until the "next event" happens, or even having multiple events running at the same time, that could definitively be fun, without the Mercs involved or with them i.e. some events may be Clan vs Clan fights (no mercs invited thank you), or say Davion vs Marik where Mercs are invited to "help settle things".

If Events are done properly allowing mercs on one side, both or none, that can be a good start for some storytelling with a timeline, if PGI allows and assigns someone to manage that.

The rest of FW can just boil down to the "Invasion" effort as a whole without focusing on individual factions.

It's a smart compromise at this juncture allowing control of the famously named "buckets" to channel players and test Event matchups out etc....

We'll see how exactly this is all rolled out though, as we're inferring stuff off the roundtable here.

While the whole buckets topic wasn't very exciting and some were making jokes about it including me, it did bring to light that for most players lobbies were not very fun to sit in and wait and instead a match maker would be better.

Maybe it was a heads up that faction play would be making a big change and what that change needed to be, at first anyway.

This is aside from the other massive weaknesses of faction play. Lack of modes, logistics and maps etc. Those additions when they get added, wouldn't have done anything about the "buckets" situation.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 September 2016 - 10:58 AM.

[RestosIII]

All this talk of FW, and I'm still angry that Clan units are in lances instead of Stars, and are for some reason having a full out normal ground conflict with Inner Sphere forces instead of units having the choice between doing a right of Batchall or not.

[Johnny Z]

RestosIII, on 08 September 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

All this talk of FW, and I'm still angry that Clan units are in lances instead of Stars, and are for some reason having a full out normal ground conflict with Inner Sphere forces instead of units having the choice between doing a right of Batchall or not.

That's ok I am still upset that the real Natasha Kerensky is frozen in space somewhere and the clone the Clans made with their cloning technology taking her place hasn't been exposed yet.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 September 2016 - 11:20 AM.

[Tordin]

ScarecrowES, on 07 September 2016 - 07:26 PM, said:

And a perfect example of a mode that really won't work without some sort of respawn system. Too much going on for elimination-style gameplay.

Im against limitless respawn, very against. BUT. Why not do it the other way around also (just as QP elements in FW), add drop decks for quick play?

Edited by Tordin, 08 September 2016 - 11:16 AM.

[LORD ORION]

So the fix to faction play is to get rid of faction play and replace it with new queue game modes?

Right... there goes the rest of the FP players, because most of them avoid the queue games like the plague.

[Hotthedd]

LORD ORION, on 08 September 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

So the fix to faction play is to get rid of faction play and replace it with new queue game modes?

Right... there goes the rest of the FP players, because most of them avoid the queue games like the plague.

...and a lot of players avoid FP because they don't care for re-spawns, so worst of both worlds.

[Johnny Z]

Hotthedd, on 08 September 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

...and a lot of players avoid FP because they don't care for re-spawns, so worst of both worlds.

Scout mode in faction play doesn't have respawn so whos to say which modes in the update will have respawns. This is a none issue until then.

Is there a YouTube link to the full version yet?

I think this is it but havnt listened yet. I only heard the last 15 minutes or so last night.

http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=4168.0

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 September 2016 - 12:19 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Kangarad, on 08 September 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

also you can heal/repair yourself. its not like you have to respawn.

Ew. Someone's obviously been playing vanilla.

Tordin, on 08 September 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Im against limitless respawn, very against. BUT. Why not do it the other way around also (just as QP elements in FW), add drop decks for quick play?

My understanding is that this is what's happening with the QP modes being added to FP.

[Hotthedd]

Johnny Z, on 08 September 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Scout mode in faction play doesn't have respawn so whos to say which modes in the update will have respawns. This is a none issue until then.

Is there a YouTube link to the full version yet?

I think this is it but havnt listened yet. I only heard the last 15 minutes or so last night.

http://www.nogutsnog...hp?topic=4168.0

Russ did.
The relevant part is from 37:50-41:20.

I will be the first to say it is doomed to failure.
I will come back in a few months to say "I told you so."

[Wintersdark]

Hotthedd, on 08 September 2016 - 10:33 AM, said:

Right. So what would even be the point of the regular QP queue? People are going to drop in the FP queue if the waits are shorter and you get FP rewards.

It is obvious that the game no longer caters to me or my demographic.
It was (mostly) fun while it lasted...

Again... wut?

You think random folks are going to flock to FP and leave the solo queue empty? Our matchmaker isn't great, but it's at least a matchmaker. Are you seriously saying that if the FP waits were shorter, that would be a bad thing? PGI should just keep FP waits long, so that that whole part of the game is garbage?

Where the heck are you even coming from here?

Or is this one of those vague posts where random disaffected folk can agree and all feel joined in their suffering, despite the fact that all of those people want something completely different?

[Hotthedd]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

Again... wut?

You think random folks are going to flock to FP and leave the solo queue empty? Our matchmaker isn't great, but it's at least a matchmaker. Are you seriously saying that if the FP waits were shorter, that would be a bad thing? PGI should just keep FP waits long, so that that whole part of the game is garbage?

Where the heck are you even coming from here?

Or is this one of those vague posts where random disaffected folk can agree and all feel joined in their suffering, despite the fact that all of those people want something completely different?

I'm saying that if the maps are the same, the modes are the same, and the wait time is the same, but one version has re-spawn and more rewards, and affects the FP map, then the QP queue will serve no purpose.
The re-spawn crowd has won.
I can admit defeat and take my time and money elsewhere. Y'all have fun with CoD in mecha skins.

[Wintersdark]

Hotthedd, on 08 September 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

I'm saying that if the maps are the same, the modes are the same, and the wait time is the same, but one version has re-spawn and more rewards, and affects the FP map, then the QP queue will serve no purpose.
The re-spawn crowd has won.
I can admit defeat and take my time and money elsewhere. Y'all have fun with CoD in mecha skins.

Wow. If I could roll my eyes any harder, they'd fall out of my head.

Yes, this, this is the thing that makes MWO "CoD in mecha skins." That's it. Respawns in faction play, that's the end of MWO!

I can't even begin to say how freakishly ridiculous this is.

QP remains exactly as it is. The reward scale remains exactly as it is. The QP-mode matches in FP will reward better, but they'll offer the same rewards per action as they do in QP; you just have more mechs to kill. This *may* result in slightly higher "cbills per hour" but that's dubious at best. The matchmaking will be much faster than it is currently in Faction Play, but it will be SLOWER than quickplay matchmaking. Also, no matchmaking in FP - complain all you want about the MM in QP; it's WAY BETTER than none at all.

Before this change: Faction play has (limited drop ship); quick play does not. After this change, Faction Play has (limited drop ship) respawns, quick play does not.


There are valid complaints to be made about some of the changes. For example, the dilution of faction identity is sad and sucky. Although there is literally no alternative; it's impossible to support nine completely separate factions with MWO's population, and the pop required to do it is way beyond what ever is or even was possible for MWO. But adding game modes to FP; ones that are somewhat different than QP, doesn't mean QP ceases to exist.

But complaining that they're making FP fun, so people will play it, and that's the end of MWO? By making Faction play less tedious, they're destroying the game and the "CoD Kiddies" are winning. Really?

Damn. Seriously, this is the worst, dumbest complaint I've seen someone make about a new change in MWO in 4 years.

Edited by Wintersdark, 08 September 2016 - 02:05 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Zolaz, on 08 September 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

Guess the Community Warfare that was promised 4 years ago will never be coming. Bittervets and Black Knights called it long ago.

The community warfare that was talked about 4 years ago was obviously not going to happen, this was readily and immediately apparent the moment they released CW. Anyone expecting more is totally out of touch with reality, and this is coming from a self-described white knight. There was never going to be more involved logistics or a really complex "overgame" - MWO is and was the bulk of the game, everything else is just going to be small stuff added to it.

They aren't developing a whole new game, then expecting to have MWO just be the combat portion of it; yet it seems some kept expecting them to do just that.

[Hotthedd]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Wow. If I could roll my eyes any harder, they'd fall out of my head.

Yes, this, this is the thing that makes MWO "CoD in mecha skins." That's it. Respawns in faction play, that's the end of MWO!

If you cannot see how this makes re-spawn the default mode, then I cannot help you

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

I can't even begin to say how freakishly ridiculous this is.

QP remains exactly as it is.

Except for the fact that it will be a ghost town, sure, because...

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

The reward scale remains exactly as it is. The QP-mode matches in FP will reward better, but they'll offer the same rewards per action as they do in QP; you just have more mechs to kill. This *may* result in slightly higher "cbills per hour" but that's dubious at best. The matchmaking will be much faster than it is currently in Faction Play, but it will be SLOWER than quickplay matchmaking. Also, no matchmaking in FP - complain all you want about the MM in QP; it's WAY BETTER than none at all.

So, why would people play QP? To be in the kiddie pool? Well, that's not for me. either.

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Before this change: Faction play has (limited drop ship); quick play does not. After this change, Faction Play has (limited drop ship) respawns, quick play does not.

Quick play also has no incentive to play it. Why not allow QP matches to still affect the Faction map, but not have re-spawns?

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

There are valid complaints to be made about some of the changes. For example, the dilution of faction identity is sad and sucky. Although there is literally no alternative; it's impossible to support nine completely separate factions with MWO's population, and the pop required to do it is way beyond what ever is or even was possible for MWO. But adding game modes to FP; ones that are somewhat different than QP, doesn't mean QP ceases to exist.

There are ways to do it. I made a suggestion thread about it a week ago. http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1 Killing the BattleTech element of MW:O, will not work.

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

But complaining that they're making FP fun, so people will play it, and that's the end of MWO? By making Faction play less tedious, they're destroying the game and the "CoD Kiddies" are winning. Really?

I see nothing that PGI will be doing that will be making FP fun. (Unless you just want re-spawns)

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Damn. Seriously, this is the worst, dumbest complaint I've seen someone make about a new change in MWO in 4 years.

You should try to see things from a different perspective, perhaps?

Edited by Hotthedd, 08 September 2016 - 02:30 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Wintersdark, on 08 September 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

This *may* result in slightly higher "cbills per hour" but that's dubious at best.

For group queue, it has a good possibility to raise the c-bills per hour (group queue wait times can be long at times), for solo queue, not so much. Considering you would have to play with mechs within the same tech base, it will definitely fill a different role though so I don't really know that many people will go flocking to CW even with this change.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 September 2016 - 02:33 PM.

[N0MAD]

Wintersdark, on 07 September 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

There's a fairly substantial set of changes in the pipe. It's not like they've got an EA sized studio to overhaul things with.

There's a lot more than what I posted above; that's just part of it.

I also really liked the notion that they're replacing Long Tom with blanket ECM intermittently. So you'd be able to time a push while the entire OpFor's sensors are down.

THAT is the sort of bonus Scouting should get you. It doesn't do damage, it can't win the game for you, but it would give you powerful tools if you choose to use them (and use them correctly).

Lol, you realize that it blankets outs everyones radar? friend and foe? real bonus to the team that actually wins the scouting right? to lazy/unable to code it so it only benefits the right team,, lol. i win the scouting match and enemy gets same benefit? really?? lol.
Why have Derek there? really why? what did he have to say? you can put his whole contribution to the meeting in a couple of sentences of agreeing with russ, what a joke..

[ScarecrowES]

I've always found the aversion to respawns on principle to be silly at best, and self-defeating at worst.

There is a fundamental fact that the game modes PGI chose to incorporate into MWO, and the manner in which they've chosen to make them, ONLY work with respawns.

There are two basic approaches to focusing the player's attention on playing the objective in an objective game mode, and neither of those allows for a win condition to result from merely killing the enemy team outright. The first approach is to deemphasize the importance of player life by making objectives so easy to achieve that not placing full attention right on those virtually ensures a loss. These modes tend to work with no respawns. The other approach is to deemphasize player life by giving each player alot of them, and making objectives extremely difficult to achieve, so that players will be more inclined to engage in a tug of war.

PGI chose game modes with hard-to-achieve objectives. Those modes need respawns. PGI chose to make killing the enemy team a valid win condition. There is no need to play the objective at all.

So we've always had 3 choices.

1) get used to 4 flavors of deathmatch
2) add respawns to existing game modes
3) introduce new or modified game modes with much easier objectives

PGI has persisted in making objectives even harder to achieve in their game modes over the years, so it's unlikely they'd change course and suddenly make them easier. Some form of respawn system was inevitable... the drop deck system was by far the obvious choice here. This was, for want of better words, inevitable and necessary.

That traditional quick play might die may not be a bad thing, especially if respawns prove to make the QP modes actually work as anything more than deathmatch.

That people will cry over something PGI changed in the game... also inevitable. Time will tell if this was a good choice, but purely mechanically, it is.

That the concept of reinforcements in a Battletech game is somehow not in keeping with the core of the series is... laughable.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 September 2016 - 03:37 PM.