81 replies to this topic

[AbsUserName]

Greetings,

The idea of having a 'mech destruct itself on overheat is not good at all.

We sure need a better heat management system, but this heat self-destruction must be erradicated. It's not canon, and it's not a fitting punishment for overheating.

Better would be simply to reduce movement rates, and this is just a starting idea to get us moving.

Thanks.

PS: I play BT since 1998, and MW since MW3. I've not played the MW RPG, though. The heat system must be redesigned.

PS2: sorry if I offended any developer, but this heat system can and should improve.

On the same topic, 2 points:

- Ammo cook-off on heat, fitting punishment for a low-heat weapon subsystem;

- 10 HS are mandatory because a twice damaged engine generates 10 extra heat. Does damaged engines generate extra heat on MW:O?

Thanks

Edit: added poll, posted on general discussion.

Edited by AbsUserName, 12 April 2016 - 08:51 AM.

[Lily from animove]

No, it needs to stay, it was alway part of mechwarrior. And its not canon? The heat penatly table of the TT BT would disagree with you.

Edited by Lily from animove, 13 May 2015 - 05:24 AM.

[AbsUserName]

The 'mech shut down, or ammo exploded. "Leg destroyed" because of overheat? Self-destruction didn't happen.

Edited by AbsUserName, 13 May 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[AbsUserName]

And on the heat table, we see:

low heat: worse aiming, less movement
mid heat: possible shutdown, even worse aiming and movement, possible ammo explosion
very high heat: mandatory shutdown

This would be fine, and much better than a self-destructing mech, or no penalties up to the heat threshold.

[Lily from animove]

AbsUserName, on 13 May 2015 - 05:58 AM, said:

The 'mech shut down, or ammo exploded. "Leg destroyed" because of overheat? Self-destruction didn't happen.

yeah the pilot just could die which is hardly much different in its outcome.

[sycocys]

Pretty sure that when I repeatedly and/or vastly over heat the engine on my car that the engine goes kablooey - since a car or mech can't function without its engine....

I also don't see how overheating my engine is going to blow up the ammo in my legs or arms - or blow up my leg - or do anything but damage to the internal parts that are over stressed and overheating.

[AbsUserName]

Right, but a 'mech was still fully operational after the pilot took the hit.

Let's get a pilot hit after overheating, then.

The idea of the designer was to damage the 'mech instead?

[AbsUserName]

So the pilot doesn't die from heat if the life support systems have not taken a critical hit: a very big if indeed.

"When the life support systems have taken a critical hit, the MechWarrior suffers 1 point of damage every turn that the BattleMech’s internal heat is 15 or higher on the Heat Scale at the end of the Heat Phase. Every turn that the heat is 26 or higher causes 2 points of damage to the MechWarrior."

http://www.aegisoft....ry_Rulebook.pdf
page 12, Introductory Rulebook

Note the When the life support systems have taken a critical hit

Even cooler if this was implemented.

[Lily from animove]

AbsUserName, on 13 May 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Right, but a 'mech was still fully operational after the pilot took the hit.

Let's get a pilot hit after overheating, then.

The idea of the designer was to damage the 'mech instead?

But doesn't alpha strike rules have oveaheat damage?

[AbsUserName]

I'm not familiar with Alpha Strike rules, but from what I managed to learn, there is no damage to the pilot at all in Alpha Strike.

[Tesunie]

If the heat gets to certain points, the advanced rule sets (which is what MW:O is based after), the pilot has to take a check or be injured. After taking so many "wounds", the pilot dies.

I'd also like to point out, it isn't the heat of the engine only, but of the entire mech. The heat from the engine is not contained inside the engine only, but vents into the body of the mech itself. This is why Mechwarriors need cooling vests to operate a mech safely, and often wear only shorts and maybe a tank top while operating their mechs.

This vented heat can "cook" off the ammo of the mech, causing an ammo explosion. The higher the heat is, the more likely this is to happen.

See the damage to the mech as you overheat as "damage" to the pilot instead. Or see it as the engine possibly weakening/warping pieces of internal framework from it's intense heat. (In the advanced rules, overheating can overload your heat sinks, making them rupture and become useless.)


From my knowledge, every MW game to exist has had overheating death be a possibility. I can recall several MW3-4 matches where I hit override on the heat and purposefully pushed as far as I could go to see what would happen. What happened? Mini-mushroom cloud. I did not survive the experience.


If we removed overheating damage/death, what else would you wish to penalize players who slap the override button and continue alpha striking into every enemy they see? (PS: By cannon/lore, Alpha Strikes were not often used, and if used was seen as an attack of last resort.) We need some incentive to not override your mech, otherwise having heat in the game becomes useless.

[MechWarrior849305]

Someone with absurd ideas must go...

[AbsUserName]

Hi, Tesunie,

I don't think you read all the posts, so I'll recap: No damage to the pilot with life support intact!

Mechs have two crit-spaces in the head called life support: so mechwarriors don't fry on terra therma.

This way, in those advanced rules you are citing, pilots only take damage from heat if the life support is critted.

Beyond that, if the mech reaches damaging temperatures, it shuts down, no questions asked.

But there are other deleterious effects before shutdown: penalties to aiming (like the blurred vision when the mech shuts off, that would be very good already), penalties to movement (very fitting), possible ammo cook-off and explosion.

PS: what are those advanced rules you are talking about? I'm very interested! : ) Are those Total Warfare? I have a level 2 rules compendium, little beyond that.

PS2: life support includes air conditioning, I think piloting in tank-top is a writer's fluff.

Hi, Duo Angel

Care to share which absurd ideas are those you're citing?

Ammo explosion? Mandatory shut down?

Or you think losing a leg or blowing up the mech head because of overheating is ok?

Tesunie, on 13 May 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

If we removed overheating damage/death, what else would you wish to penalize players who slap the override button and continue alpha striking into every enemy they see? (PS: By cannon/lore, Alpha Strikes were not often used, and if used was seen as an attack of last resort.) We need some incentive to not override your mech, otherwise having heat in the game becomes useless.

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting the overheat penalty removal.

I'm suggesting a gradual system, and removal of the mech damaging overheat penalty.

[AbsUserName]

Tesunie, on 13 May 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

If we removed overheating damage/death, what else would you wish to penalize players who slap the override button and continue alpha striking into every enemy they see? (PS: By cannon/lore, Alpha Strikes were not often used, and if used was seen as an attack of last resort.) We need some incentive to not override your mech, otherwise having heat in the game becomes useless.

If I'm not testing your patience, please answer this to me: -10 to -50kph movement penalty while hot, aiming penalties and ammo explosions, and mandatory shutdown to boot is insufficient penalty for overheating? All this counts as "If we removed overheating damage/death,"?

Edited by AbsUserName, 13 May 2015 - 09:13 AM.

[Serpentbane]

Keep damage/destruction by OH, and rather remove GH.

[AbsUserName]

To be clear, as I think I'm not being comprehended, this is what I'm talking about
Heat Points Effects
30 Auto shut down
28 Ammo explosion on a 8+
26 Shut down on a 10+
25 -5 MP
24 +4 to hit
23 Ammo explosion on a 6+
23 Shut down on a 8+
20 -4 MP
19 Ammo explosion on a 4+
18 Shut down on a 6+
17 +3 to hit
15 -3 MP
14 Shut down on a 4+
13 +2 to hit
10 -2 MP
8 +1 to hit
5 -1 MP
source: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CBT_Tables

Do you see? No leg destroyed, no head component destroyed, etc because of heat.

But plenty of penalties to make up for it.

And no damage in an ammo depleted or energy only mech: Just slower, unsteadier, shutdown prone mech

Edited by AbsUserName, 13 May 2015 - 09:25 AM.

[AbsUserName]

Hi, Serpentbane

Sure! No ghost heat! But this is a topic for another thread. Could you start it for us?

[Satan n stuff]

AbsUserName, on 13 May 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

Right, but a 'mech was still fully operational after the pilot took the hit.

Let's get a pilot hit after overheating, then.

The idea of the designer was to damage the 'mech instead?

In most other MechWarrior games you'd just straight up explode if your heat gets too high, ammo or no ammo.

[Serpentbane]

AbsUserName, on 13 May 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Hi, Serpentbane

Sure! No ghost heat! But this is a topic for another thread. Could you start it for us?

Well, Yes it do belong in its own thread. Wilde guess, searching for Ghost Heat will give me hundreds of hits. However, removing Ghost Heat removes loads of heat spikes. Without those spikes mechs would not OH as much, and in turn they would not explode as often either.

For most players, ordinary heat is rather easy to manage, and the increase is proportional with the number of weapons you fire. If you manage to Alpha enough to explode without GH you should have a chat with your trigger finger. With GH you need to not only time your shot, but also time several different weapon types relative to each other. In the heat of battle you could find you firing to fast, perhaps even aplhaing. Fired properly a burst of all weapons could generate 50% heat, where alphaing cracks that 100% limit wide open, damaging or destroying your mech. Especially new users struggle with this.

[Aethelred Kell]

Frankly I see the "Damage" from overheating as the most viable option here. Your other option is for them to find some way to code in a certain % alteration of your shots from the actual location where your cross-hair is located in addition to coding in speed alterations based upon heat percentage. When that is done if they don't make it a random deviation for targeting the "Pro Players" Will all just learn where it deviates to and just alter their aiming to fit with it making the learning curve for us newer pilots even steeper than it already is. This at least allows you to overheat in those rare instances where if you get the shot off now you hope to survive the overheat, but if you don't get the shot off you know you are dead while still making heat management at least moderately important.