26 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Moon-Moon Direwolf
-5 IQ Direwolf
Party-Wolf
Danger-Close Direwolf

To my knowledge, the Dire Wolf has a ridiculous amount of hardpoints -- 20 weapons, allowing for equally ridiculous amount of weapons to be loaded upon it. But to do so is to mount numerous light and weak weapons, maximizing the hardpoints as well as with ammunition in mind. As well as it is hard-capped to 16 weapons.

But realistically how powerful would such a mech be? Consider the totally F-ing gimped Dire-Wolf, with 20 weapons. 15 flamers are stupid, a single SRM-6 isn't that powerful in the context of an assault, and so is 4 UAC5s, with only 480 ammo. Pair that with Direwolf's inherent slow and clumsy general handling. What impact would it do?

What i am getting at here is that, i think PGI should remove the 16 weapon cap, as realistically so much weapons need a lot of tonnage and critical slots accounting for weapon size and ammunition amount, along with heat sinks to boot and armor to survive, even the heat to use them -- it is already restricting as it is, that despite this amount of hardpoints, it generally forces players to amass generally weak, low-range, and small weapons, that already gimps mech.

Of course, why does this matter? I mean if it's kind of trollish to do and is unlikely to be done because of it's inherent gimpy-ness, it's not like players would go above 16 weapons in the first place.

Well, personally, i would like to see Dire-Wolf have 20 weapons at once, even if it's small. After all, Dire-Wolf's point is have an inordinate firepower, to "carry all the weapons", with it's slow and clumsy handling to balance it out. Something like this would allow players to be better utilize the Dire-Wolf, even if it's something stupid as the Moon-Moon Direwolf.

I am not a balancing guru, nor have been here long. However these are just my thoughts, i don't insist that my position is ultimate, and correct.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 September 2016 - 08:06 AM.

[Wintersdark]

The 16 weapon cap isn't a balance measure, it's a technological limitation; the various UI elements aren't designed to hold more.

It's not worth putting the time in to "fix" that, because there's no use to having more weapons either; you can't use them effectively. Any 17+ weapon build is a bad build.

[Robot Kenshiro]

Just like mechcommander 1...remember...... i know all of you had 30+ medium lasers on the atlas.... pew pew boom.... dead mechs everywhere

Edited by Robot Kenshiro, 10 September 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Wintersdark, on 10 September 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

The 16 weapon cap isn't a balance measure, it's a technological limitation; the various UI elements aren't designed to hold more.

Oh okay then.

Wintersdark, on 10 September 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

It's not worth putting the time in to "fix" that, because there's no use to having more weapons either; you can't use them effectively. Any 17+ weapon build is a bad build.

Yeah sure, but it would be nice to have more creative freedom.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wintersdark, on 10 September 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

The 16 weapon cap isn't a balance measure, it's a technological limitation; the various UI elements aren't designed to hold more.

It's not worth putting the time in to "fix" that, because there's no use to having more weapons either; you can't use them effectively. Any 17+ weapon build is a bad build.

ARE there any TT builds WITH 17+ weapons? The most crazy builds like that I can even think of are

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha

or

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bane_(Kraken)

and MWO wise the most there is bane with 14 ballistics slots

[Wintersdark]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 September 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

ARE there any TT builds WITH 17+ weapons? The most crazy builds like that I can even think of are

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha

or

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bane_(Kraken)

and MWO wise the most there is bane with 14 ballistics slots

Not to my knowledge. I think they picked 16 as it allowed all the stock builds, or at least all the remotely reasonable ones.

There's also things like Machine Gun Arrays, which are groups of machine guns; in MWO one would allow multiple machine guns to count as one weapon.

After all, we've got Nova's running around 16 weapons; but that's definitely an upper limit of usability and even there it's arguable that'd you'd do better by ditching the silly machine guns and taking DHS.

Edited by Wintersdark, 10 September 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Wintersdark, on 10 September 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Not to my knowledge. I think they picked 16 as it allowed all the stock builds, or at least all the remotely reasonable ones.

the limit didnt exist (from what I remember) until the Nova came into the game just like I remember the thing where you cant fire 4 gauss coming into the game with the DW (I think)

[LordKnightFandragon]

Robot Kenshiro, on 10 September 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Just like mechcommander 1...remember...... i know all of you had 30+ medium lasers on the atlas.... pew pew boom.... dead mechs everywhere

I actually never did that. I personally didnt like the Atlas in that game. TO slow and clumsy. Same deal with the Mauler. By the time it got to the fight, the mission was won...

My builds in MC1 were 1 or 2 long range PPC or ERLL(didnt care much for GR, to little ammo and the pilots liked to waste it, even with high gunnery), an LRM or 2 or 3 on every mech, at least 1 short range gun per mech, 1 or 2 flamers(cuz yes, I found out having them is immensely valuable). Then a few supporting medium range weapons, usually the small little ERML. Some mechs I mained for Medium range and they used CPL or PPC. Didnt like the Medium AC to much, to heavy and pilots waste ammo.

Pretty much made the game alot easier once I stopped front loading CERPPC/CERLL/CGR+LRM on everything, then wondering why my guys get ***** on almost every mission cuz the enemy is to close for my guys to use hte guns.

The mission where you meet Loki/Thor for the first time, capturing the ammo depots before the Clan blows them up, yeah, that mission.....I always got ***** on it BADLY....still do honestly, its a rough one right from the get go....but yeah, the like 12 Commandos hanging out in the base....they die easy now, since my mechs come packin' Flamers and AC20s....Its really rather beautiful watching them all explode.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 10 September 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 September 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

the limit didnt exist (from what I remember) until the Nova came into the game just like I remember the thing where you cant fire 4 gauss coming into the game with the DW (I think)

It's a UI limit, so it probably did exist all along. It was just never an issue before then, as nothing had nearly enough hardpoints. As I said, the 16 weapon limit isn't a balance limit, it's just a limit due to how the UI is built.

The max of 2 gauss at once came with the Direwolf, but not immediately. Pretty quickly, though. That *was* a balance limit.

[Robot Kenshiro]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 September 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I actually never did that. I personally didnt like the Atlas in that game. TO slow and clumsy. Same deal with the Mauler. By the time it got to the fight, the mission was won...

My builds in MC1 were 1 or 2 long range PPC or ERLL(didnt care much for GR, to little ammo and the pilots liked to waste it, even with high gunnery), an LRM or 2 or 3 on every mech, at least 1 short range gun per mech, 1 or 2 flamers(cuz yes, I found out having them is immensely valuable). Then a few supporting medium range weapons, usually the small little ERML. Some mechs I mained for Medium range and they used CPL or PPC. Didnt like the Medium AC to much, to heavy and pilots waste ammo.

Pretty much made the game alot easier once I stopped front loading CERPPC/CERLL/CGR+LRM on everything, then wondering why my guys get ***** on almost every mission cuz the enemy is to close for my guys to use hte guns.

The mission where you meet Loki/Thor for the first time, capturing the ammo depots before the Clan blows them up, yeah, that mission.....I always got ***** on it BADLY....still do honestly, its a rough one right from the get go....but yeah, the like 12 Commandos hanging out in the base....they die easy now, since my mechs come packin' Flamers and AC20s....Its really rather beautiful watching them all explode.

God dam you!!!!.......*loads up MC1*....Thanks....now I need my nostalgia fix.... 😊

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 September 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I actually never did that. I personally didnt like the Atlas in that game. TO slow and clumsy. Same deal with the Mauler. By the time it got to the fight, the mission was won...

My builds in MC1 were 1 or 2 long range PPC or ERLL(didnt care much for GR, to little ammo and the pilots liked to waste it, even with high gunnery), an LRM or 2 or 3 on every mech, at least 1 short range gun per mech, 1 or 2 flamers(cuz yes, I found out having them is immensely valuable). Then a few supporting medium range weapons, usually the small little ERML. Some mechs I mained for Medium range and they used CPL or PPC. Didnt like the Medium AC to much, to heavy and pilots waste ammo.

Pretty much made the game alot easier once I stopped front loading CERPPC/CERLL/CGR+LRM on everything, then wondering why my guys get ***** on almost every mission cuz the enemy is to close for my guys to use hte guns.

The mission where you meet Loki/Thor for the first time, capturing the ammo depots before the Clan blows them up, yeah, that mission.....I always got ***** on it BADLY....still do honestly, its a rough one right from the get go....but yeah, the like 12 Commandos hanging out in the base....they die easy now, since my mechs come packin' Flamers and AC20s....Its really rather beautiful watching them all explode.

God dam you!!!!.......*loads up MC1*....Thanks....now I need my nostalgia fix.... 😊

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 September 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I actually never did that. I personally didnt like the Atlas in that game. TO slow and clumsy. Same deal with the Mauler. By the time it got to the fight, the mission was won...

My builds in MC1 were 1 or 2 long range PPC or ERLL(didnt care much for GR, to little ammo and the pilots liked to waste it, even with high gunnery), an LRM or 2 or 3 on every mech, at least 1 short range gun per mech, 1 or 2 flamers(cuz yes, I found out having them is immensely valuable). Then a few supporting medium range weapons, usually the small little ERML. Some mechs I mained for Medium range and they used CPL or PPC. Didnt like the Medium AC to much, to heavy and pilots waste ammo.

Pretty much made the game alot easier once I stopped front loading CERPPC/CERLL/CGR+LRM on everything, then wondering why my guys get ***** on almost every mission cuz the enemy is to close for my guys to use hte guns.

The mission where you meet Loki/Thor for the first time, capturing the ammo depots before the Clan blows them up, yeah, that mission.....I always got ***** on it BADLY....still do honestly, its a rough one right from the get go....but yeah, the like 12 Commandos hanging out in the base....they die easy now, since my mechs come packin' Flamers and AC20s....Its really rather beautiful watching them all explode.

God dam you!!!!.......*loads up MC1*....Thanks....now I need my nostalgia fix....

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 September 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I actually never did that. I personally didnt like the Atlas in that game. TO slow and clumsy. Same deal with the Mauler. By the time it got to the fight, the mission was won...

My builds in MC1 were 1 or 2 long range PPC or ERLL(didnt care much for GR, to little ammo and the pilots liked to waste it, even with high gunnery), an LRM or 2 or 3 on every mech, at least 1 short range gun per mech, 1 or 2 flamers(cuz yes, I found out having them is immensely valuable). Then a few supporting medium range weapons, usually the small little ERML. Some mechs I mained for Medium range and they used CPL or PPC. Didnt like the Medium AC to much, to heavy and pilots waste ammo.

Pretty much made the game alot easier once I stopped front loading CERPPC/CERLL/CGR+LRM on everything, then wondering why my guys get ***** on almost every mission cuz the enemy is to close for my guys to use hte guns.

The mission where you meet Loki/Thor for the first time, capturing the ammo depots before the Clan blows them up, yeah, that mission.....I always got ***** on it BADLY....still do honestly, its a rough one right from the get go....but yeah, the like 12 Commandos hanging out in the base....they die easy now, since my mechs come packin' Flamers and AC20s....Its really rather beautiful watching them all explode.

God dam you!!!!.......*loads up MC1*....Thanks....now I need my nostalgia fix....

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 September 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I actually never did that. I personally didnt like the Atlas in that game. TO slow and clumsy. Same deal with the Mauler. By the time it got to the fight, the mission was won...

My builds in MC1 were 1 or 2 long range PPC or ERLL(didnt care much for GR, to little ammo and the pilots liked to waste it, even with high gunnery), an LRM or 2 or 3 on every mech, at least 1 short range gun per mech, 1 or 2 flamers(cuz yes, I found out having them is immensely valuable). Then a few supporting medium range weapons, usually the small little ERML. Some mechs I mained for Medium range and they used CPL or PPC. Didnt like the Medium AC to much, to heavy and pilots waste ammo.

Pretty much made the game alot easier once I stopped front loading CERPPC/CERLL/CGR+LRM on everything, then wondering why my guys get ***** on almost every mission cuz the enemy is to close for my guys to use hte guns.

The mission where you meet Loki/Thor for the first time, capturing the ammo depots before the Clan blows them up, yeah, that mission.....I always got ***** on it BADLY....still do honestly, its a rough one right from the get go....but yeah, the like 12 Commandos hanging out in the base....they die easy now, since my mechs come packin' Flamers and AC20s....Its really rather beautiful watching them all explode.

God dam you!!!!.......*loads up MC1*....Thanks....now I need my nostalgia fix....

Whooooaaaaaa...... super forum lag post or what......jesus dam....

[TercieI]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 September 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

the limit didnt exist (from what I remember) until the Nova came into the game just like I remember the thing where you cant fire 4 gauss coming into the game with the DW (I think)

The Nova was among the first omnimechs, nothing showed the limitation until then since no battlemech appraoched 16 hardpoints.

The gauss thing was either at clan launch or shortly thereafter. RIP Boomphract.

[LordNothing]

hardpoint inflation comes with diminishing returns. lasers need to be cooled, and every extra laser means fewer sinks can be crammed in. with missiles and especially ballistics, trying to fill ever hardpoint results in less ammo. the only way you can fully utilize 6 ballistic points on a non-heavy/assault mech, is to equip machine guns (im looking at you shadowcat). i tried a 16 laser dire and it left something to be desired. 12 laser mechs work if you can learn fire discipline. 6spl and 6erml gargles was the star of my dropdeck when i was clan aligned.

[JediPanther]

Have you ever danced under the pale light of the 100 lrm stalker? Or been hit with six er ppcs at once? Weapons have to be limited some how or every mech build would be whatever could alpha once and kill the 100 ton mechs while pretending the other three weight classes don't exist. The BFG is great for doom but horrible in an online multiplayer game with no respawns.

[InspectorG]

Wintersdark, on 10 September 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

The 16 weapon cap isn't a balance measure, it's a technological limitation; the various UI elements aren't designed to hold more.

It's not worth putting the time in to "fix" that, because there's no use to having more weapons either; you can't use them effectively. Any 17+ weapon build is a bad build.

17 MGs????

I would troll that for great damages.

[The6thMessenger]

PGI should increase the limit to at least 20, to make Direwolf weapon-whale work, since it's not a balance issue, and it will allow a lot more builds with mechs with more than 16 hard points, allowing them to be a niche weapon whale.

What if the game "Unify" certain weapons? Like Machine Guns, Flamers, Tags etc. or Unify same weapons of the same weapon group? Limited by division of torso and arms of course.

InspectorG, on 10 September 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

17 MGs????

I would troll that for great damages.

Lol, i would really like that.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 September 2016 - 03:19 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

JediPanther, on 10 September 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Have you ever danced under the pale light of the 100 lrm stalker? Or been hit with six er ppcs at once?

The 6 ppc stalker was a joke to everyone except Paul lol

The6thMessenger, on 10 September 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

What if the game "Unify" certain weapons? Like Machine Guns, Flamers, Tags etc. or Unify same weapons of the same weapon group? Limited by division of torso and arms of course.

thats what machinegun arrays were

[John Stryker]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 10 September 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

ARE there any TT builds WITH 17+ weapons? The most crazy builds like that I can even think of are

I believe the SA-JG had 16mg, 3mpl and 2 lpl, IIRC.

Edited by John Stryker, 10 September 2016 - 03:34 PM.

[Wintersdark]

The6thMessenger, on 10 September 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

PGI should increase the limit to at least 20, to make Direwolf weapon-whale work, since it's not a balance issue, and it will allow a lot more builds with mechs with more than 16 hard points, allowing them to be a niche weapon whale.

What if the game "Unify" certain weapons? Like Machine Guns, Flamers, Tags etc. or Unify same weapons of the same weapon group? Limited by division of torso and arms of course.



Lol, i would really like that.

The thing is, it's not just a matter of adjusting a number in the code. MWO's UI is very terribly made, and not at all extensible - you see this in how it doesn't scale to resolutions and such properly, and other such things. It's awful.

So, all the elements that list how many weapons you have such as the HUD in game and the Weapon Group selector in the Mechlab are designed around a 16 weapon limit. They'd all need modification too, and that's assuming there's not other systems that are making assumptions about the maximum size of a mech's weapon list which is entirely possible; PGI is not known for their forward-thinking adaptable coding. See: how arm actuator changes borked clan UAC's (or was it the other way around? Either way, it was bizzare and silly).

But at the very least, raising the limit would be non-trivial and require UI work, and would have a real possibility of causing strange and far-reaching bugs. As entertaining as it would be, it's really a very minimal gain for the time invested vs. other work. Such a request, if they were willing to do it at all, would end up way far down on the triage list and probably never happen as a result anyways.

InspectorG, on 10 September 2016 - 02:45 PM, said:

17 MGs????

I would troll that for great damages.

If only there was a mech that could pack 17 MG's in the first place =)

[The6thMessenger]

Wintersdark, on 10 September 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

The thing is, it's not just a matter of adjusting a number in the code. MWO's UI is very terribly made, and not at all extensible - you see this in how it doesn't scale to resolutions and such properly, and other such things. It's awful.

So, all the elements that list how many weapons you have such as the HUD in game and the Weapon Group selector in the Mechlab are designed around a 16 weapon limit. They'd all need modification too, and that's assuming there's not other systems that are making assumptions about the maximum size of a mech's weapon list which is entirely possible; PGI is not known for their forward-thinking adaptable coding. See: how arm actuator changes borked clan UAC's (or was it the other way around? Either way, it was bizzare and silly).

But at the very least, raising the limit would be non-trivial and require UI work, and would have a real possibility of causing strange and far-reaching bugs. As entertaining as it would be, it's really a very minimal gain for the time invested vs. other work. Such a request, if they were willing to do it at all, would end up way far down on the triage list and probably never happen as a result anyways.

I don't know about that scaling though, i play on a Potato PC that requires me to have a small resolution just to play at around 24 - 33 FPS (that's pitiful right?). And the game is just fine for me.

Although i do get the incessant window-flicker-switching when i would want to switch to my browser, and the game loads.

So it's a question of PGI's willingness to work? Well, i did saw small changes with the UI.

Although, if they are willing, i really hope that they would do this. My position in the first place, assumes that they are willing to work.

Anyways, would you even like (or not hate; just Blah) it?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 September 2016 - 04:06 PM.

[Wintersdark]

The6thMessenger, on 10 September 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

So it's a question of PGI's willingness to work?

Although, if they are willing, i really hope that they would do this. Anyways, would you even like (or not hate; just Blah) it?

No, it's not about PGI's willingness to work. They're already working. Russ is going to keep his engineers engineering all the time, because he's paying them all the time.

It's about what other tasks they want to delay in order to do that. Every single thing they do comes at the cost of something else; those UI engineers are working on projects all the time. So, every new thing you add necessarily has to come at the cost of delays elsewhere.

Thus, they have to consider the cost:benefit ratio for every single thing they do. In this case, it's a fair bit of cost, because it's NOT just adjusting a "MAX_WEAPONS_ALLOWED" constant somewhere. And like I said, it comes with the hazard of causing far reaching bugs that may or may not be readily apparent, which adds additional devhours in bug fixing. See: Comment about how arm actuator changes broke AC's above. Suddenly the not-small change costs many more hours for the engineers, QA, etc; and imagine the s$#tstorm if a change like that broke the game for people in live.

All so people can run a very, very small amount of troll builds.

Would I like it? Sure, I would. Do I need it? No; even as a lover of troll builds(I have a 12 flamer/4MG Nova built right now!) and hardcore DWF pilot (getting close to a thousand matches in DWF's), no I don't need it.