140 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

Mechs should be hot. This isnt CoD...

[Widowmaker1981]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 September 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't understand why cone of fire mechanics of some type or another just haven't been implimented... hell ARMA2, a bloody MILITARY SIMULATOR, has CoF mechanics!!! And ARMA3 has a similar system.

Consider the effect on role balance. If the most damage you can do to a single component is 15 at range, it will be effectively impossible to do significant enough damage from range (especially considering the amount of cover in this game) to brawlers loaded to the gills with SRMs who give precisely zero f*cks about your cone of fire malarky, and once they are in range their low heat, massive DPS SRMs are always going to shred you, with no comeback, making the only viable playstyle short range splat brawler.

It has to be possible for mid/long range mechs to do sufficient damage to brawlers from range to discourage the brawlers from charging in, and that balance is obliterated by adding a cone of fire that utterly cripples mid/long and does nothing to short.

I could actually live with a CoF mechanic based on mech movement and heat, but if im standing still and cool, i should be able to multiple weapons into one spot.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 14 September 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

mogs01gt, on 14 September 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Mechs should be hot. This isnt CoD...

They are hot. If you run energy weapons you are heat capped after a couple shots, or you aren't doing that much damage. CoD also only takes a couple shots in rapid succession to kill someone... which is orders of magnitude faster than MWO.

The CoD exaggerations have to go, people.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 September 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 September 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

They are hot. If you run energy weapons you are heat capped after a couple shots, or you aren't doing that much damage. CoD also only takes a couple shots in rapid succession to kill someone... which is orders of magnitude faster than MWO.
The CoD exaggerations have to go, people.

No they arent hot. They are still able to move and twist at 100% even when they are 75% or higher in the heat threshold. Depending on the weapon and the amount of weapons, one alpha should put you at redline and reduce your movement speed. This is why mechs are and should be, built around diverse load outs like in lore.

[Hotthedd]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 September 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

I have never seen a "simulator" aspect proposed with balance in mind. And people who want a balanced game don't get hung up on realism and "sim" aspects. Its more about priorities. I would rather have a balanced, fun, MechWarrior game. Others would like 90% of the game to be how well you can get around convoluted "sim" mechanics. That's great for single play games like "Flight Simulator 20XX", but not here.

Yeah, it is an oversimplification, but I'm pretty sure its true, judging by who supports ED and how many people I see who are outwardly opposed to it.

The only convoluted mechanics I see are anti-sim, and for "balance" of the already already arcade-y game.
Ghost heat is not a "sim" aspect. Energy draw is not a "sim" aspect.
Sim aspects would be:
Hard heat cap with scaling heat effect penalties.
No instant pinpoint convergence of multiple multi ton weapons.
No re-spawning.
Repair and Re-arm.
Functioning game economy.
etc.

[Gas Guzzler]

Hotthedd, on 14 September 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

Hard heat cap with scaling heat effect penalties.
No instant pinpoint convergence of multiple multi ton weapons.

These two in particular have a severe impact on balance that you have refused to acknowledge in the past.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 September 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

mogs01gt, on 14 September 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

No they arent hot. They are still able to move and twist at 100% even when they are 75% or higher in the heat threshold. Depending on the weapon and the amount of weapons, one alpha should put you at redline and reduce your movement speed. This is why mechs are and should be, built around diverse load outs like in lore.

What does movement have to do with being hot? Being heat capped means being hot. Boating AC5s is cool and is very hard to get heat capped. If you want to make mechs hotter, then everyone will use cool weapons instead, as even mixing different weapons would be hotter than just using cool weapons.

I'm cool with agility nerfs when hitting 90-100% heat and having sensor issues and HUD issues, but beyond that, shutting down or not being able to shoot is punishment enough. Managing heat to the point of not shutting down is a skill. Building a loadout designed to never have heat issues (Dual Gauss? quad AC5s?) is not.

[mogs01gt]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 September 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

What does movement have to do with being hot? Being heat capped means being hot. Boating AC5s is cool and is very hard to get heat capped. If you want to make mechs hotter, then everyone will use cool weapons instead, as even mixing different weapons would be hotter than just using cool weapons.
I'm cool with agility nerfs when hitting 90-100% heat and having sensor issues and HUD issues, but beyond that, shutting down or not being able to shoot is punishment enough. Managing heat to the point of not shutting down is a skill. Building a loadout designed to never have heat issues (Dual Gauss? quad AC5s?) is not.

The energy required to move the mech and shoot weapons, comes from the engine. The engine itself is already generating heat(its not in MWO which is part of the issue), the more work you make the engine due, the more heat your generate. When you are firing weapons, there is going to be less energy for movement and vice versa.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 September 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

Yeah, but those boats, tend to be mitigated by players taking care with how much they fire.

since when? The tt heat worked completely different.

SmithMPBT, on 14 September 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Let me clarify a little. I wouldn't consider the Cat A-1 boating if had for instance 2 LRM15s and 2 SRM6s due to the mixed range. Same thing with a mixed ranged laser based mech. The Sarna mechs you linked to back your argument are almost all mixed laser loadouts, thus not true boats like the 7 mplaser Thunderbolt in MWO. Despite all that, the lore statement applies, Alpha Strikes are not meant to happen every 4 seconds over and over while theres a target in your sights, according to lore. I know min/maxing is very satisfying in most MMO's, but alot of the players still here from the beginning enjoy a more true to Battletech experience.

then hbs is making the game for you. not this one.

mogs01gt, on 14 September 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

The energy required to move the mech and shoot weapons, comes from the engine. The engine itself is already generating heat(its not in MWO which is part of the issue), the more work you make the engine due, the more heat your generate. When you are firing weapons, there is going to be less energy for movement and vice versa.

when did those rules come in in TT? Ive never seen them

[Pariah Devalis]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 September 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

when did those rules come in in TT? Ive never seen them

+1 heat for walking, +2 for running? I donno. Been a long time since I did CBT.

It is semi-simulated in MWO, however. You sink slightly faster under a certain speed threshold, but the difference is practically non-existent.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

SmithMPBT, on 14 September 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Let me clarify a little. I wouldn't consider the Cat A-1 boating if had for instance 2 LRM15s and 2 SRM6s

man that specific ruling you could well say there ARE NO boats. I like that idea. Next time I see someome qq about boats Ill try that line of reasoning

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Pariah Devalis, on 14 September 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

+1 heat for walking, +2 for running? I donno. Been a long time since I did CBT.

It is semi-simulated in MWO, however. You sink slightly faster under a certain speed threshold, but the difference is practically non-existent.

Im talking the part where you said there was less energy for shooting when youre moving. Ive never seen THAT rule, yes you run hotter, but there are things in the TT heat scale that MAKE you have to control your fire. Theyre noted on the heat scale. It gets harder to shoot, your mech can shut down early, your ammo can explode the hotter you get the slower the mech moves, etc. and the heat doesnt necessarily mean its you firing either. If your mech takes a shitload of flamer fire or inferno rounds, its not making you move slower because the reactor is making more power gop to the heat sinks



We have none of that here, and that scale is not ED either

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 14 September 2016 - 10:41 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

mogs01gt, on 14 September 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

The energy required to move the mech and shoot weapons, comes from the engine. The engine itself is already generating heat(its not in MWO which is part of the issue), the more work you make the engine due, the more heat your generate. When you are firing weapons, there is going to be less energy for movement and vice versa.

I mean that just because your movement isn't affected doesn't mean you aren't running hot. And the engine actually does generate heat when you are moving, its just a very small amount so you don't really notice.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 13 September 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't understand why cone of fire mechanics of some type or another just haven't been implimented... hell ARMA2, a bloody MILITARY SIMULATOR, has CoF mechanics!!! And ARMA3 has a similar system.

I do; when it was mentioned in early CB, people freaked the **** out over it and flipped their ****. Apparently most people had come from WoT and didnt want that ever in the game, and it took a uproar the size of the one where they removed GD for them to listen and throw out the CoF idea (and apparently all of the convergence system)

[Yosharian]

You seriously want 10+ ghost heat on dual gauss?

[Hotthedd]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 September 2016 - 09:59 AM, said:

These two in particular have a severe impact on balance that you have refused to acknowledge in the past.

On the contrary, the refusal by PGI to use them as balancing factors has led to the bandaids upon bandaids that we currently see.

[mogs01gt]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 September 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

since when? The tt heat worked completely different.
then hbs is making the game for you. not this one.
when did those rules come in in TT? Ive never seen them

I dont give a flying **** about the flawed system of Battletech TT. I care that Lore was more balanced than both MWO and TT. Engines produce heat, its not rocket science

Edited by mogs01gt, 14 September 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[FupDup]

mogs01gt, on 14 September 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Mechs should be hot. This isnt CoD...

Mechs already WERE hot before PTS4. They have always been hot in MWO except for things like AC/5 or Gauss boats.

There comes a fine line between 'hot' and super-duper-walking-oven levels of hot. PTS4 crosses that line.

[mogs01gt]

FupDup, on 14 September 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

Mechs already WERE hot before PTS4. They have always been hot in MWO except for things like AC/5 or Gauss boats.
There comes a fine line between 'hot' and super-duper-walking-oven levels of hot. PTS4 crosses that line.

They are walking ovens, you are sitting on a fusion reactor.

Fixing this game with heat wont work because convergence still exists and PPCs suck. But the once PPCs dont suck, ballistics will suck. Its an on going cycle of lasers being the most efficient weapon.

I'd like to bring in more of a RPG feel where ballastics, energy and missiles affect armor differently. Ballistics penetrate armor, energy strip armor, missiles explode and do something lol.

[Gas Guzzler]

mogs01gt, on 14 September 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

They are walking ovens, you are sitting on a fusion reactor.

Fixing this game with heat wont work because convergence still exists and PPCs suck. But the once PPCs dont suck, ballistics will suck. Its an on going cycle of lasers being the most efficient weapon.

I'd like to bring in more of a RPG feel where ballastics, energy and missiles affect armor differently. Ballistics penetrate armor, energy strip armor, missiles explode and do something lol.

cERPPCs are top tier weapons, used on top tier mechs from Mediums to Assaults. I'm confused as to why you think they suck.

Lasers are actually BEHIND cERPPCs/Gauss, and Dakka on the live servers right now, with a shoutout to the WHM-6R that can do PPCs and UAC5s albeit with good PPC quirks.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 September 2016 - 01:01 PM.