59 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 13 September 2016 - 08:38 PM, said:

The issue is that they're making SHS more useful by nerfing the crap out of DHS. I don't mean just capacity, I mean that even dissipation got smacked down.

I for one am totally fine with that, in theory. Although I'd have to test it first. Maybe the nerf is too much, but I still consider this a step in the right direction.

The6thMessenger, on 13 September 2016 - 07:58 PM, said:

Yeah, i do think that Singles would be a lot more viable now, but then i think the DHS should be a bit more powerful with all of that Crit-slots. 3 Crit-Slots is already a lot. The least they could do is literally double the heat dissipation.

SHS have never even been close to being as useful as DHS since 2012. If they go too far with buffing SHS and nerfing DHS, it's still a step in the right direction. They can pull it back a bit later, if necessary.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 13 September 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

I for one am totally fine with that, in theory. Although I'd have to test it first. Maybe the nerf is too much, but I still consider this a step in the right direction.

It's not the right direction for any Light mech involved.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 13 September 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

It's not the right direction for any Light non-ballistic mech involved.

Fixed.

[The6thMessenger]

Alistair Winter, on 13 September 2016 - 08:58 PM, said:

SHS have never even been close to being as useful as DHS since 2012. If they go too far with buffing SHS and nerfing DHS, it's still a step in the right direction. They can pull it back a bit later, if necessary.

Well, it would be useful if it's easy to put Heat-sinks in the first place. But because of tonnage restriction, I would opt for DHS. If there's a lot of tonnage to spare, SHS would be much useful enmassed. The only way i know how to make that happen is that to make Heat-sinks to be easier to put in -- somehow.

What if Engine Heat-sinks are completely modular instead of fixed? Like there's an engine critical-slot that which only heat-sinks are allowed, and would have no weight. I'd also remove that 10-heatsink requirement, and just make it a Heat-Capacity requirement. People can opt for lots of Standard Heat Sink to maximize Heat Cap, or DHS to maximize cooling efficiency and weight, or hybrid of both.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 13 September 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 13 September 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

It's not the right direction for any Light mech involved.

That's a shame, but no surprise, given that PGI has vowed not to make MWO's cheapest mechs viable.

How does it punish light mechs specifically though? I haven't looked closely at the numbers or tried the latest PTS version.

[Hotthedd]

Why do single heat sinks need to be better than double heat sinks, again?
It makes no sense.

[El Bandito]

Hotthedd, on 14 September 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

Why do single heat sinks need to be better than double heat sinks, again?
It makes no sense.

Feels like a huge slap in the face after paying hundreds of millions for the DHS tax. Perhaps PGI is planning to make a balanced stock mode?

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 14 September 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

That's a shame, but no surprise, given that PGI has vowed not to make MWO's cheapest mechs viable.

How does it punish light mechs specifically though? I haven't looked closely at the numbers or tried the latest PTS version.

If you've seen FupDup's spreadsheet (although I think it's strictly capacity)...

Currently our DHS dissipation math is like this on live:
2.0*Internal DHS + .14 IS/.15 Clan * External DHS = Total Dissipation on Live

PTS math is this:
1.7*Internal DHS + .17*External DHS = Total Dissipation on PTS

You can juggle the math however you want... overall dissipation is lowered (although the quirk adjustments to sub-250 Lights minus Arctic Cheetah would gain benefits that they shouldn't have).

For Capacity,

Live Math:
30 + 2.0*Internal DHS + 1.5 IS/1.1 Clan * External DHS = total dissipation on Live

PTS Math:
30 + 1 * Internal DHS + 1 * External DHS = total dissipation on PTS


Either way, Lights get the shaft. Hitting capacity is quicker (not by much), but the dissipation they used to have is a bit less, and thus less sustainable. Sure other/bigger mechs suffer too, unless they spend more tonnage on dakka.. where Lights don't have real dakka (MGs don't really count) so their options are worse.

Math. Learn it. I guess there are exceptions made by one balance overlord though.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 September 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[CygnusX7]

In before someone suggests having fan cockpit item mounted allows for .1 more heat dissipation.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 14 September 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Math. Learn it.

Sorry, who is this directed at?

[FupDup]

Alistair Winter, on 14 September 2016 - 03:00 AM, said:

That's a shame, but no surprise, given that PGI has vowed not to make MWO's cheapest mechs viable.

How does it punish light mechs specifically though? I haven't looked closely at the numbers or tried the latest PTS version.

The live server and PTS3 give mechs with 10 DHS installed 2.3 heat dissipated per second when you got 2x Elites.

The PTS4 gives 10 DHS mechs 1.79 dissipation per second instead.

The kicker here is that most of the mechs who only have 10 DHS are going to be lights due to lacking the tonnage for more. There are a few dual Gauss builds in the upper classes, sure, but they are never going to overheat anyways. Meanwhile, all decent light builds run kind of hot as it is, so this just degrades quality of life further.

All mechs with all numbers of heatsinks have inferior dissipation in PTS4 than live or PTS3, but mechs with the fewest number of sinks have the highest relative penalty. Mechs with the most sinks have a slightly lower relative penalty.

Look at my spreadsheet again, this is shown in the "Elite Difference" column in the middle area.



In theory, there is a point where the PTS4 mech would have better cooling than PTS3...but it would require an absurdly ridiculous number of heatsinks that would be impossible for any mech to ever mount.

Edited by FupDup, 14 September 2016 - 12:08 PM.

[Malagant]

I think what really pisses me off the most, is that we are willingly paying PGI to Alpha Test this game for them at worst and unpaid testers at best...

If they can't get it right this late in the game, time to sell the property to someone who actually cares about the IP and let someone else try and get it working the way it should. Each new "balance" review takes us further and further away from Battletech and I'm about sick of it...

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 14 September 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

Sorry, who is this directed at?

The user of the Dartboard of Balance™ of course!

[Bud Crue]

Malagant, on 14 September 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

Each new "balance" review takes us further and further away from Battletech and I'm about sick of it...

Given that Russ has stated that he thinks the game has a viable e-sport future, I believe that the whole goal is to do exactly that...eliminate BT from this game. That kind of "lore" or extraneous setting is just baggage in an e-sport shooter.
Also, no BT, then no need to pay for a license to BT universe.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 14 September 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Given that Russ has stated that he thinks the game has a viable e-sport future, I believe that the whole goal is to do exactly that...eliminate BT from this game. That kind of "lore" or extraneous setting is just baggage in an e-sport shooter.
Also, no BT, then no need to pay for a license to BT universe.

I don't think Russ understands what it means to be an e-sport, so he's praying that it would help.

The Tourney is a joke, and unless they've invited enough press to give a damn, it's still a sham ultimately.

All one has to say @ Mechcon is "the game we're playing in the tourney is dramatically different from the ones in the live game". That'll bowl over well with people even being remotely interested.

[Bud Crue]

Deathlike, on 14 September 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

I don't think Russ understands what it means to be an e-sport, so he's praying that it would help.

The Tourney is a joke, and unless they've invited enough press to give a damn, it's still a sham ultimately.

All one has to say @ Mechcon is "the game we're playing in the tourney is dramatically different from the ones in the live game". That'll bowl over well with people even being remotely interested.

Nonsense. All they have to do is show the "media" the little CW video that they made, and the world will have an accurate understanding of what the game is and how it plays.

-watches video-

Nevermind.

Edit: Actually its funny (funny pathetic, not so much funny ha ha) that the two extraneous things that PGI has clearly invested money in of late in order to advertise the game (the tournament and the CW video) and neither one of them accurately depicts or represents the actual game that PGI makes. Things that make ya go "hmm".

Edited by Bud Crue, 14 September 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 14 September 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Nonsense. All they have to do is show the "media" the little CW video that they made, and the world will have an accurate understanding of what the game is and how it plays.

-watches video-

Nevermind.

The video is accurate only like 10% of the time.

The other 90% doesn't involve Timberwolves in Scouting missions.

[pizzafly]

Deathlike, on 14 September 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

The user of the Dartboard of Balance™ of course!

I still remember "That guy" asking "what is a zero based sum?"

[Deathlike]

pizzafly, on 14 September 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

I still remember "That guy" asking "what is a zero based sum?"

Let's not talk about PSR our XP bar like that. It's too complicated.

[MoonUnitBeta]

1.5 sinks

Referencing to the millions of c-bills you need to spend to get them.