71 replies to this topic

[DrxAbstract]

davoodoo, on 15 September 2016 - 03:41 AM, said:

You can strap nothing but srms to yourself and something like archer 5w will have 64 dmg alpha every 3s on live, yet its hardly big dmg...

And ppl being able to put large alphas like idk, 96 dmg heat neutral kodiak despite 100 tonner having at best 62 armor in ct wasnt a problem in tt...and in neither of previous mechwarriors, no gh no ed...

This got everything to do with pinpoint accuracy and nothing with dmg itself.

Not sure why you're citing TT or past MW games, they are not MWO, therefor are irrelevant.

64 Alpha Archer isnt big damage? The Griffin has half of that and it's a solid pain in the backside - Neither use precise weapons and yet can turn you into a smoldering wreck in a matter of 20'ish seconds - The 'pinpoint damage' is just another boogeyman argument. Weapons in MWO deal too much damage too quickly, and when combined with the proper Mechs, well, that's what Meta mechs are. Too much damage too quickly with too many hardpoints, I dont care what you choose to blame, the simple fact is there are only two 'precision' weapon categories in MWO: PPCs and IS ACs - Everything else is a spread damage weapon with a requirement attached to it for landing precise hits that not even the self-proclaimed best can manage to fulfill even half the time against anyone above potato status... And guess what--They're not used excessively.

Pinpoint is as bogus argument and it always has been. Sure you can argue that's why we got doubled armor except weapon re-fire speed was also cited for that. You can even say the old poptart meta was due to pinpoint... If you ignore the fact those weapons and Mechs still exist and the only effectual change made since then was Jump Jet efficiency, /ponder. Weapon cooldowns, the sheer spammability of them in MWO and the utter lack of heat generation as a factor are the core issues that actually have merit.

[davoodoo]

DrxAbstract, on 15 September 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Not sure why you're citing TT or past MW games, they are not MWO, therefor are irrelevant.

64 Alpha Archer isnt big damage? The Griffin has half of that and it's a solid pain in the backside - Neither use precise weapons and yet can turn you into a smoldering wreck in a matter of 20'ish seconds - The 'pinpoint damage' is just another boogeyman argument. Weapons in MWO deal too much damage too quickly, and when combined with the proper Mechs, well, that's what Meta mechs are. Too much damage too quickly with too many hardpoints, I dont care what you choose to blame, the simple fact is there are only two 'precision' weapon categories in MWO: PPCs and IS ACs - Everything else is a spread damage weapon with a requirement attached to it for landing precise hits that not even the self-proclaimed best can manage to fulfill even half the time against anyone above potato status... And guess what--They're not used excessively.

Pinpoint is as bogus argument and it always has been. Sure you can argue that's why we got doubled armor except weapon re-fire speed was also cited for that. You can even say the old poptart meta was due to pinpoint... If you ignore the fact those weapons and Mechs still exist and the only effectual change made since then was Jump Jet efficiency, /ponder. Weapon cooldowns, the sheer spammability of them in MWO and the utter lack of heat generation as a factor are the core issues that actually have merit.

Well **** if thing that spawned license the game is based on and previous games arent relevant to establish balance...

Nope, no one complaints about archer, ppl dont even complain about splatcat with 72 dmg from srms, maddog with again 72 dmg aint a problem at all.
**** you could grab 2 lbx20 and 2lbx10 direhwale and fire it without penatlies in gh and no one batches an eye for this 60 dmg cool as **** alpha...
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...99067f9a9b6f3b3
This monstrosity will make ppl laugh you out of the match...

So clearly its not dmg that is the problem... not when you got 600 armor and 300 or so structure, Case and point, 700 dmg on a mech is considered good score but thats less than what single 100 tonner got...

Problem is the fact that armor of mechs is reduced to their most vulnerable part, in most occasions st or ct. 3 60 dmg laser alphas will kill direhwale, when you however grab 60 dmg of srms or llbx then suddenly you can expend all ammo and that direwhale still got a fair chance to stand.

And heat??
Not only our heat sinks are worse than tt ones which basically vented 0.2/s per dhs and had full 2 capacity added per dhs but you then we also have lowered cooldowns so ppl dont stare at each other for 10s with thumbs up their asses and no one buffed heat dissipation due to that...
70 dmg is what you can achieve on heat neutral atlas using standard structure and armor and std engine and single heat sinks.

Pgi gh boogeyman, clan laservomit with 6 erml and 2 lpl, would be heat neutral on tt timberwolf, so saying that we fire too often and for too much dmg is beyond ******** if you look at what pgi pretends this game is

Battletech game, where nova cant fire single arm without heat penatlies or kgc which cant fire its iconic ac20s without overheating. I fell bad for poor hellstar when it comes out. Hag40 with 40 dmg?? nope cant have that in ed. mrm40?? bastardize it until you can justify 30 ed but no one can justify using it.

Edited by davoodoo, 15 September 2016 - 10:01 AM.

[Nutta88]

What I'd like to see for the next PTS would be;
Single HC 1.2 Dis 0.24
IS Double HC 2 Dis 0.4
Clan, Internal HC 2 Dis 0.4
Clan, External HC 1.333 Dis 0.2666

With a base capacity of HC of 15 rather than 30. Since +15 is around where I would have a mech need override enabled to keep running, while having issues afterwards. I'd prefer for there to be movement issues extra at +5 onwards but a 15 base would be in keeping with having a softer limit as long as disipation as at least at the rates above.

The lower values for external HS mean that both clan and IS can get to about the same heat cap and dissipation with no edno or FF... still makes clan hot and benefit from having weapons other than just energy. Would help with level the clan weight advantage as 3 extra clan heat sinks would only be the same as two IS...

Sorting out the heat system works for hot weapons mainly, the rest of balance really should come from cooldowns, how damage is delivered, like having long cool downs on front loaded and all AC being multi shot.

...

edit.... as I need to work out how to import images

Edited by Nutta88, 16 September 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

New patch/PTS announcement with updated HS specs

[Navid A1]

Tarl Cabot, on 16 September 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

New patch/PTS announcement with updated HS specs

Yeah...more slap in the face...

Dissipation more or less LOWER or equal to Live client for an even more heat cap reduction:
http://mwomercs.com/...at-dissipation/


F***!

Edited by Navid A1, 16 September 2016 - 04:47 PM.

[FupDup]

Updated maths:

Edited by FupDup, 16 September 2016 - 05:03 PM.

[Navid A1]

FupDup, on 16 September 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

Updated maths:

internal and external DHSs both do 0.19 dissipation

Edited by Navid A1, 16 September 2016 - 04:58 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Note that this means that lights with sub250 engines should (in back of head math) come out ahead in pts5.

So pts3 value is only accurate for 250+ rated engines, while pts5 value is accurate regardless of engine.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 16 September 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Note that this means that lights with sub250 engines should (in back of head math) come out ahead in pts5.

So pts3 value is only accurate for 250+ rated engines, while pts5 value is accurate regardless of engine.

Oh yeah... 24 double heat sinks also give you more dissipation now... but what percentage of the mechs in the game have 24 DHS?
Same goes for your analogy of sub-250 light mechs!

The fix is easy... its PAINFULLY easy... PGI is just resisting!
Just increase dissipation to 0.2 and increase cool run to 15% on elite.


Here is the reality for you:

ScarecrowES, on 16 September 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

You ever wonder how PGI comes up with this stuff?

I mean, I know you guys said low cap, high dissipation... but something tells me you didn't mean half-cap and mostly-the-same-dissipation.

And then to make the penalty 40% harsher on top of it? Smart.

Oh... and "we over-nerfed large lasers, and they're not good. So we'll also over-nerf large pulse lasers because those were better."

Edited by Navid A1, 16 September 2016 - 05:18 PM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Navid A1, on 16 September 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Oh yeah... 24 double heat sinks also give you more dissipation now... but what percentage of the mechs in the game have 24 DHS?
Same goes for your analogy of sub-250 light mechs!

The fix is easy... its PAINFULLY easy... PGI is just resisting!
Just increase dissipation to 0.2 and increase cool run to 15% on elite.


Here is the reality for you:

There's nothing wrong with working up bit by bit, and a lower cap doesn't need a higher dissipation, although I would like to see how it tests.

[Tarl Cabot]

Lower cap or not, alphas and weapon group firing will be built around it but the player is still not hampered while riding the heatscale UNTIL peaking at 100+, so no negative effects (movement/agility) to assist in changing behavior.

And the overall cap needed to be lowered. As for the heatsinks, stop the griping cause they have not said this is the final PTS, and they have been inching the rate up after a dip. And with the skill tree adjustment exceeds the true dubs without a skill tree, what is wrong with that?

Tired of the NH server..

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 16 September 2016 - 05:54 PM.

[Deathlike]

Tarl Cabot, on 16 September 2016 - 05:49 PM, said:

Lower cap or not, alphas and weapon group firing will be built around it but the player is still not hampered while riding the heatscale UNTIL peaking at 100+, so no negative effects (movement/agility) to assist in changing behavior.

And the overall cap needed to be lowered. As for the heatsinks, stop the griping cause they have not said this is the final PTS, and they have been inching the rate up after a dip. And with the skill tree adjustment exceeds the true dubs without a skill tree, what is wrong with that?

Tired of the NH server..

As far as I'm concerned, our balance overlord is "totally guessing from right field" as there is no logical rhyme or reason to even change both LPLs... and that's before we talk about the heat cap and dissipation.

[Tarl Cabot]

The fact is though, NONE of the other games, MW nor MPBT, had this type of game and the type of changes made to it, a game that is continuously being updated and tweaked.

And many would agree they believe when PGI started, they got some things right/okay but other things /waddles hand, while some stuff was not even in the game yet. Right, wrong or incompatibility/restrictive issues for the correct setup on Live, PGI is partially showing that things are in place for them to make other changes, and this PTS has not stopped at one testing after a week or two, but have continued to the current PTS 5 with no end date.

Many are in a comfort zone right now with many items and many do not like change, especially with PGI track record on several things. Right now I am hoping for the best but expecting the worse, or even worse no real change except possibilities that evaporated away.

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

DrxAbstract, on 15 September 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Too much damage too quickly with too many hardpoints, I dont care what you choose to blame, the simple fact is there are only two 'precision' weapon categories in MWO: PPCs and IS ACs - Everything else is a spread damage weapon with a requirement attached to it for landing precise hits that not even the self-proclaimed best can manage to fulfill even half the time against anyone above potato status... And guess what--They're not used excessively.

Just wondering where IS and C-Gauss Rifle fit in? Sorry... Didnt read the rest of your statement because this question popped up in my mind (and I cant stop but wonder what the answer is). Ill continue reading the rest later.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 16 September 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Note that this means that lights with sub250 engines should (in back of head math) come out ahead in pts5.

So pts3 value is only accurate for 250+ rated engines, while pts5 value is accurate regardless of engine.

Nope. Not really

Let me give you an example about how much fail is in this:

As a famous under-engined light, consider Adder-Prime with daul PPCs and 14 double heat sinks (8 internal + 6 external) with fully elite skill tree

• On live it has: 3.16 Heat per second dissipation (with 56 heat cap)
  
• On PTS 5, it has 2.93 Heat per second dissipation (with 47.1 heat cap)

The normalization of heat sinks is a positive move... but on what planet this change is considered a buff?!?!?!?!?!


This is an UTTER fail!


DHS MUST have 0.2 dissipation and cool run MUST be 15% (on elite) for this to work.... I hope PGI understands this before we are at PTS11

Edited by Navid A1, 17 September 2016 - 01:26 AM.

[Deathlike]

Remover of Obstacles, on 14 September 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

I kind of feel that this is their way of saying "Look Ghost Heat is better". We tried a bunch of things that were tweeted at us and it didn't work. Too bad, so sad. Let's leave it.

That or PGI is buying stock in another mech based game and trying to sink their own...

I get the strong feeling that PGI will announce "a game they are working on" @ Mechcon...

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 17 September 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

Nope. Not really

Let me give you an example about how much fail is in this:

As a famous under-engined light, consider Adder-Prime with daul PPCs and 14 double heat sinks (8 internal + 6 external) with fully elite skill tree

• On live it has: 3.16 Heat per second dissipation (with 56 heat cap)
  
• On PTS 5, it has 2.93 Heat per second dissipation (with 47.1 heat cap)

The normalization of heat sinks is a positive move... but on what planet this change is considered a buff?!?!?!?!?!



This is an UTTER fail!


DHS MUST have 0.2 dissipation and cool run MUST be 15% (on elite) for this to work.... I hope PGI understands this before we are at PTS11

Yeah, hadn't done the math, and my understanding (which was in error? I've lost track of values now) was that they put Cool Running back to the Live values (so it could be ignored for comparison purposes).

In which case:

A 10 DHS mech with a 200 rated engine would have 8x.2+2x.14 on live = 1.88 while the same here would be 1.9 (rough parity), before the skills, while anything with a lighter engine or more out-of-engine heatsinks would benefit.

Anyways, if I'm wrong re: Cool Running, then by all means, I'm wrong.

Regardless, I still think they're missing the point of low-cap/high-dissipation, but I'm unsurprised - I know Paul finds the whole LCHD thing as hugely problematic though he's never really expanded on why. Eh, whatever. I'm too tired to really argue anything anymore.

[davoodoo]

Gentleman Reaper, on 16 September 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

There's nothing wrong with working up bit by bit, and a lower cap doesn't need a higher dissipation, although I would like to see how it tests.

I wonder whats the point of having 12e hardpoints if you can fire maybe 2x6 lasers at best and then wait for an hour, better to drop to 6 weapons and add extra dhs...

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 17 September 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Regardless, I still think they're missing the point of low-cap/high-dissipation, but I'm unsurprised - I know Paul finds the whole LCHD thing as hugely problematic though he's never really expanded on why. Eh, whatever. I'm too tired to really argue anything anymore.

I feel that has always been some ninja goal @ PGI.

Their persistence in being clueless and/or ignorant could arguably be legendary.

Trying to repeat obvious issues is PGI developed Black Hole device for all Lostech™.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 September 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 17 September 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

...
Regardless, I still think they're missing the point of low-cap/high-dissipation, but I'm unsurprised - I know Paul finds the whole LCHD thing as hugely problematic though he's never really expanded on why. Eh, whatever. I'm too tired to really argue anything anymore.

The most he's ever said is this:

Paul, in ATD #43 said:

Answer from Paul: There are no current plans to change the heat threshold towards TT values. Are we hard set against it? No, just at the moment there’s no need to do this.

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

Many palms and faces across the internet made contact when he submitted that post.