71 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

So lets imagine an elite mech with 20 double heat sinks before PTS4:

• Heat cap = 71
  
• Dissipation = 4.025 H/s

Now, in PTS4: (considering skill tree heat nerfs as well)

• Heat cap = 51.5
  
• Dissipation = 3.57 H/s

So they decreased hat cap AND dissipation?



Why?
I thought the idea was decreased heat cap and increased dissipation!

Why do I feel that PGI is running around in circles in a dark room?

In PTS4, in order for you to have more dissipation compared to PTS3... You have to have more than 86 external heatsinks (on top of your 10 internal ones).



Complete comparison by FupDup

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 07:33 PM, said:

For reference, here are some exact maths. I also did a theorycraft of having external dubs be 2.0 at the request of Quickie.

PTS5 Update:



So... you reduced heat cap even more to give us more or less the same heat dissipation we have in live client RIGHT NOW????

WHY??
Why you resist so much?
I'm getting tired of this.



Let me give you the final answer before you get to PTS9.
Here:

• Increase Double heat sink dissipation to 0.2
  
• Increase cool run skill to 7.5% (15% on elite)

and this will be the resulting dissipation rates... THAT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!!





So... PGI... please stop running around in circles and DO THE RIGHT THING!

Edited by Navid A1, 17 September 2016 - 01:34 AM.

[FupDup]

PGI still hasn't gotten the memo that the laser vomit meta ended a long time ago.

[Deathlike]

Because reasons.

The Dartboard of Balance doesn't discriminate good and bad ideas. It just has a lot of bad ones on the board.

[Gas Guzzler]

Because the handful of grognards that want a snails pace game so they can wipe the sweat from their eyebrows between each chainfired medium laser, represent what's best for MWO?

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, the dissipation nerf was over the top.

I've long been a fan of low cap high dissipation; but this is low cap low dissipation, which SEVERELY nerfs a lot of mechs. To a really astounding degree.

This definitely doesn't need ED(or GH) too because you don't have anywhere near the heat capacity/dissipation to use many weapons at all, even when chaining stuff and spreading everything out. Just can't sink the heat. But even if it didn't have GH or ED, it'd still be IMHO way too restrictive.

To have a lower cap, we really need higher dissipation. Nerfing both just doesn't work.

[FupDup]

For reference, here are some exact maths. I also did a theorycraft of having external dubs be 2.0 at the request of Quickie.

[cazidin]

People asked. PGI is giving us one test session with a lower heat cap. We'll see how this goes.

[FupDup]

cazidin, on 12 September 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

People asked. PGI is giving us one test session with a lower heat cap. We'll see how this goes.

People asked for lower dissipation?

[MechaBattler]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

People asked for lower dissipation?

I thought live dissipation was at 1.4? The pts says they raised it to 1.7, did they nerf the internal heatsinks?

[FupDup]

MechaBattler, on 12 September 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

I thought live dissipation was at 1.4? The pts says they raised it to 1.7, did they nerf the internal heatsinks?

Buff: Increased external diss to 0.17 (0.14 live, 0.15 in PTS3)

Nerf: Reduced Cool Run to 2.5% (5% Elite), used to be 7.5% Basic and 15% Elite

Nerf: Reduced internal diss to 0.17 (from 0.2)


Check my spreadsheet a few posts up for the maths.

Edited by FupDup, 12 September 2016 - 07:42 PM.

[MechaBattler]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Buff: Increased external diss to 0.17 (0.14 live, 0.15 in PTS3)

Nerf: Reduced Cool Run to 2.5% (5% Elite), used to be 7.5% Basic and 15% Elite

Nerf: Reduced internal diss to 0.17 (from 0.2)


Check my spreadsheet a few posts up for the maths.

Damn it PGI...

[Kmieciu]

FupDup, on 12 September 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Buff: Increased external diss to 0.17 (0.14 live, 0.15 in PTS3)

Nerf: Reduced Cool Run to 2.5% (5% Elite), used to be 7.5% Basic and 15% Elite

Nerf: Reduced internal diss to 0.17 (from 0.2)

Classic PGI:
One step forward, two steps back.

Along with the ER Laser changes, this actually will make the game even more "camp and poke",but now the dominant weapon combo will be 3xC-ERLL.

Edited by Kmieciu, 12 September 2016 - 10:58 PM.

[Kaptain]

Completely destroys mix weapon build built on those 10-12 engine heat sinks.

As one example

I have a mauler with 2xUAC5s, 2xLRM10 and 6xML for backup. When hot it should be able to fall back to the auto-cannons but dissipation has been nerfed so badly that I can't even keep up with just those 2 ultras.

This is not what we asked for.

Set dissipation at 2.0 and lets have a real test of what we have been asking for.

Edited by Kaptain, 12 September 2016 - 11:16 PM.

[Nutta88]

The pace of the game is controlled by dissipation and heat cap is how big your energy alpha can be... Dissipation should be at least 50% more, possibly double. Though once DHS were in TT, ballistics became just tonnage fillers as energy was always just more effective. So going to 2.5 x dissipation to match the average 4 second cool down would just push more energy vomit.

Edited by Nutta88, 12 September 2016 - 11:26 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

This change is valid, your arguments are biased

Since November 2012 I promoted to change the DHS values to 1.7 reason: was back then when you had just your base rating of 10 DHS you get such a boost in dissipation and capacity that any additional heatsink was really a waste of tons.
Speaking of a K2 vs a Cicada the K2s additional heatsinks were hardly the boost as the additional speed of the Cicada.
So the answer for the K2 was to mount more PPCs and ignore heat completely - 4 PPC 10 DHS.

With GH this effect was reduced but it was still there. Now with 1.7 the dissipation is in reallity a buff to those that are able to mount 20 or more DHS. This is also a good buff for Clan Mechs with low pod space like Summoner or Gargoyle and tons of fixed heatsinks

The change in capacity was promoted by the community since 2012 also -
SHS Capacity
DHS dissipation
So that the design choice DHS or SHS is not just a pure C-Bill Sink anymore

this heat sink change is perfect, almost

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 September 2016 - 11:43 PM.

[Navid A1]

Karl Streiger, on 12 September 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

This change is valid, your arguments are biased

Since November 2012 I promoted to change the DHS values to 1.7 reason: was back then when you had just your base rating of 10 DHS you get such a boost in dissipation and capacity that any additional heatsink was really a waste of tons.
Speaking of a K2 vs a Cicada the K2s additional heatsinks were hardly the boost as the additional speed of the Cicada.
So the answer for the K2 was to mount more PPCs and ignore heat completely - 4 PPC 10 DHS.

With GH this effect was reduced but it was still there. Now with 1.7 the dissipation is in reallity a buff to those that are able to mount 20 or more DHS. This is also a good buff for Clan Mechs with low pod space like Summoner or Gargoyle and tons of fixed heatsinks

The change in capacity was promoted by the community since 2012 also -
SHS Capacity
DHS dissipation
So that the design choice DHS or SHS is not just a pure C-Bill Sink anymore

this heat sink change is perfect, almost

You didn't get it...right?

In PTS4 even with 0.17 dissipation for BOTH external and internal DHS and the sneaky heat skill nerf, you'll get even LESS dissipation in you r comparison case.

packing 10 extra DHS suck even more now compared to packing 10 DHS back then
The difference between having 10 DHS and 20 DHS is now more significant... but the overall result is way worse!!!

Edited by Navid A1, 13 September 2016 - 12:50 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Navid A1, on 13 September 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

You didn't get it...right?

In PTS4 even with 0.17 dissipation for BOTH external and internal DHS and the sneaky heat skill nerf, you'll get even LESS dissipation in you r comparison case.

packing 10 extra DHS suck even more now compared to packing 10 DHS back then
The difference between having 10 DHS and 20 DHS is now more significant... but the overall result is way worse!!!

sure with the 1.5 dissipation of PTS3 the 1.7 is the wrong value. 1.7 was the correct normalisation value for the 1.4.
so it might now be 1.8 or 1.85.
To be correct i would like when the additional dissipation increases with each additional heatsink above 10. But non linear functions are los tech.

Considering the "skill tree" its the right choice to decrease its useability. When it finally doesn't matter anymore if your skill table is maxed or not - maybe we can have something nice

[Navid A1]

Karl Streiger, on 13 September 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:

To be correct i would like when the additional dissipation increases with each additional heatsink above 10. But non linear functions are los tech.

yes, that would be nice to have... but not when even 20 double heat sinks will still be worse than 20 doubles in the old system!

The main idea the community suggested was reduced heat cap along with increased dissipation to 0.2 H/s per DHS.

PGI implemented the punishing half, and nerfed the rewarding half...
its herp derp on a galactic scale!

[Widowmaker1981]

Karl Streiger, on 13 September 2016 - 01:10 AM, said:

Considering the "skill tree" its the right choice to decrease its useability. When it finally doesn't matter anymore if your skill table is maxed or not - maybe we can have something nice

If it doesn't matter, what is the point of it existing?

If there is no point in it existing, what does that do to PGIs mastery pack/mech pack sales model?

[Karl Streiger]

Widowmaker1981, on 13 September 2016 - 02:23 AM, said:

If there is no point in it existing, what does that do to PGIs mastery pack/mech pack sales model?

A bad system doesn't become a good one just because it seems that there are no alternatives.

of course any other skill tree system might still need 3 or maybe as much variants as possible to unlock better skills.