28 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Here is what I want to test after PTS4:

PTS4 heat cap

Buffed heat dissipation for DHS

No Energy Draw.

Unnerfed lasers.

Why? Because with a low heat cap, Energy Draw is unnecessary and too limiting. I shouldn't have to wait longer than it takes to aim my lasers after firing an AC20, for example. Linking all different weapons to the same weapon system is not a good system, and does not promote diverse play.

Lower heat cap does hamper large alphas, but not overly so. It balances burst DPS and full DPS better than Energy Draw does, lets try it.

And lasers are way too weak after the last round of nerfs. Their values should really be closer to live server values..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 13 September 2016 - 10:36 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

Here is what I want to test after PTS4:

PTS4 heat cap

Buffed heat dissipation for DHS

No Energy Draw.

Unnerfed lasers.

Why? Because with a low heat cap, Energy Draw is unnecessary and too limiting. I shouldn't have to wait longer than it takes to aim my lasers after firing an AC20, for example. Linking all different weapons to the same weapon system is not a good system, and does need promote diverse play.

Lower heat cap does hamper large alphas, but not overly so. It balances burst DPS and full DPS better than Energy Draw does, lets try it.

And lasers are way too weak after the last round of nerfs. Their values should really be closer to live server values..

Obviously, we've changed too many things at this point to adequately test any one concept. It's impossible at this point to determine which specific change is causing what.

To be perfectly honest, the "everything but the kitchen sink" test concept needs to go away. If we're going to test weapon balance changes, we need to do that separately from heat system changes, and separately from ED-specific changes. We can't do all at once.

Frankly speaking though, ED is a road to nowhere. Having to go this far afield to try to make it work should be indication enough that we're beyond the scope of what the system is trying to do.

I hate to be a broken record... but it's time to try the TT system. Everything else has had it's shot. PGI even entertained the abysmal fixed 30-point heat cap. It's time to go home. It's also possibly the least effort-intensive options, and far easier to test, because you can use all the live values for weapons and builds. Itd take less than a day to adapt the ED mechanics to TT.

[Wintersdark]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

Here is what I want to test after PTS4:

PTS4 heat cap

Buffed heat dissipation for DHS

No Energy Draw.

Unnerfed lasers.

Why? Because with a low heat cap, Energy Draw is unnecessary and too limiting. I shouldn't have to wait longer than it takes to aim my lasers after firing an AC20, for example. Linking all different weapons to the same weapon system is not a good system, and does need promote diverse play.

Lower heat cap does hamper large alphas, but not overly so. It balances burst DPS and full DPS better than Energy Draw does, lets try it.

And lasers are way too weak after the last round of nerfs. Their values should really be closer to live server values..

This.

Low cap, high dissipation, no ED, basically live laser stats. Try it!

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 13 September 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

This.

Low cap, high dissipation, no ED, basically live laser stats. Try it!

Not that it's not what you're saying, but I'll just add that dissipation would need to go higher than it is now on PTS 4.

[xe N on]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

Here is what I want to test after PTS4:

PTS4 heat cap

Buffed heat dissipation for DHS

No Energy Draw.

Unnerfed lasers.

Why? Because with a low heat cap, Energy Draw is unnecessary and too limiting. I shouldn't have to wait longer than it takes to aim my lasers after firing an AC20, for example. Linking all different weapons to the same weapon system is not a good system, and does need promote diverse play.

Lower heat cap does hamper large alphas, but not overly so. It balances burst DPS and full DPS better than Energy Draw does, lets try it.

And lasers are way too weak after the last round of nerfs. Their values should really be closer to live server values..

Then we would have Dakka-Warrior Online instead of Laser-Warrior Online.

[Gas Guzzler]

xe N on, on 13 September 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Then we would have Dakka-Warrior Online instead of Laser-Warrior Online.

We already have DakkaandERPPCGauss-warrior online, some of you just aren't aware of that yet. (Lasers haven't been ideal for a while, the masses just haven't caught on yet because instead of being nerfed into oblivion they were simply brought in line last December). Also remember that AC5 cooldowns have been hit pretty hard. If laser boats are allowed to alpha again (albeit only once because of lower heat cap) at least there is a peak play style available. I'm not saying that would be the end result, but frankly Energy Draw is more apt to make the game dakka-warrior online than simply a lower heat cap.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimax, on 13 September 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Not that it's not what you're saying, but I'll just add that dissipation would need to go higher than it is now on PTS 4.

Dissipation would need to go higher than it is on live.

PTS4 dissipation is dramatically lower than live in a lot of cases, and just close (but still lower) in high-DPS count cases on PTS4.

For example, run 10DHS on Live, and you've got 2.0 dissipation before skills. Add your 15% for doubled basics, and that's 2.3.

Run 10DHS on PTS4, and you've got 1.7 before skills, 1.79 after. That's a tremendous loss.

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

We already have DakkaandERPPCGauss-warrior online, some of you just aren't aware of that yet. (Lasers haven't been ideal for a while, the masses just haven't caught on yet because instead of being nerfed into oblivion they were simply brought in line last December). Also remember that AC5 cooldowns have been hit pretty hard. If laser boats are allowed to alpha again (albeit only once because of lower heat cap) at least there is a peak play style available. I'm not saying that would be the end result, but frankly Energy Draw is more apt to make the game dakka-warrior online than simply a lower heat cap.

Even as someone who likes Energy Draw overall, this is totally true.

A low heat cap but high dissipation is way, way friendlier to energy builds than ED is with existing cooling.

The reason is simple:

Dissipation rates don't affect dakka DPS, as dakka builds are basically heat neutral. However, the increased dissipation means energy based builds can output more damage over time, while the low cap prevents heavy laser alphas.

[xe N on]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

We already have DakkaandERPPCGauss-warrior online, some of you just aren't aware of that yet. (Lasers haven't been ideal for a while, the masses just haven't caught on yet because instead of being nerfed into oblivion they were simply brought in line last December). Also remember that AC5 cooldowns have been hit pretty hard. If laser boats are allowed to alpha again (albeit only once because of lower heat cap) at least there is a peak play style available. I'm not saying that would be the end result, but frankly Energy Draw is more apt to make the game dakka-warrior online than simply a lower heat cap.

As in the previous PTS, ED values for ACs and Gauss can be increased making boating of those weapons a problem.

Although "recoil" as proposed in another thread would be much better.

Edited by xe N on, 13 September 2016 - 09:40 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

xe N on, on 13 September 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

As in the previous PTS, ED values for ACs and Gauss can be increased making boating of those weapons a problem.

Although "recoil" as proposed in another thread would be much better.

Well how many AC5s is okay? Are you going to give them 8 Draw so you can't fire 4 at a time? No thanks. My suggestion stands.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 08:15 AM, said:

Here is what I want to test after PTS4:

PTS4 heat cap

Buffed heat dissipation for DHS

No Energy Draw.

Unnerfed lasers.

Why? Because with a low heat cap, Energy Draw is unnecessary and too limiting. I shouldn't have to wait longer than it takes to aim my lasers after firing an AC20, for example. Linking all different weapons to the same weapon system is not a good system, and does need promote diverse play.

Lower heat cap does hamper large alphas, but not overly so. It balances burst DPS and full DPS better than Energy Draw does, lets try it.

And lasers are way too weak after the last round of nerfs. Their values should really be closer to live server values..

I tend to agree. I would like to see a test done along these lines to see where that would put us. The only thing that concerns me is stacking SRMs, dakka and Alpha ballistics (Including Gauss). I really think that a Reload mechanism that extends the cooldown on these weapons, by a significant percentage, when like type weapons are stacked is necessary if we are truly trying to increases TTK and control Alphas.

Longer cooldown equals increased time to load multiple weapons using a fixed number of reload systems.

Edited by Rampage, 13 September 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[Ultimax]

xe N on, on 13 September 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

As in the previous PTS, ED values for ACs and Gauss can be increased making boating of those weapons a problem.

I swear, some of you guys, ffs.

If you can't boat AC 5s or link them with PPCs they are basically non-viable as a weapon on your build.

A single and even 2 AC 5s with nothing else is basically pissing into the wind with the amount of armor and structure mechs have - we have to boat them, because mechs are too survivable already.


The problem is that this game is full of potatoes who think if we just nerf everything to the ground so they can survive sustained focus fire from multiple enemies for 2 or 3 minutes straight the game will finally be fun (for them) - instead what we will get is snooze-warrior online.

Edited by Ultimax, 13 September 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 13 September 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

I tend to agree. I would like to see a test done along these lines to see where that would put us. The only thing that concerns me is stacking SRMs, dakka and Alpha ballistics (Including Gauss). I really think that a Reload mechanism that extends the cooldown on these weapons, by a significant percentage, when like type weapons are stacked is necessary if we are truly trying to increases TTK and control Alphas.

Well, you and I both know that we have different opinions on how important limiting alphas is. But even in the current game, after a couple alphas, being heatcapped is a thing. Being heat capped faster means yeah you may get one big alpha in, but then you have to stagger fire or wait before alphaing again. In a sustained fire fight with ballistics and SRMs, being heatcapped is bad. People will take less firepower for more heat sinks to try to put off being heat capped as best as they can. Its a different dynamic than energy draw, in that you aren't directly hurting your efficiency just because you alpha your weapons, its just that yeah you alphad, if you missed that sucks big time because now you are running hot. Even if you hit, you probably didn't kill him and now you are running hot and can't alpha again for a bit.

[Cy Mitchell]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Well, you and I both know that we have different opinions on how important limiting alphas is. But even in the current game, after a couple alphas, being heatcapped is a thing. Being heat capped faster means yeah you may get one big alpha in, but then you have to stagger fire or wait before alphaing again. In a sustained fire fight with ballistics and SRMs, being heatcapped is bad. People will take less firepower for more heat sinks to try to put off being heat capped as best as they can. Its a different dynamic than energy draw, in that you aren't directly hurting your efficiency just because you alpha your weapons, its just that yeah you alphad, if you missed that sucks big time because now you are running hot. Even if you hit, you probably didn't kill him and now you are running hot and can't alpha again for a bit.

Agreed. I was thinking along the lines of instead of linking ED to heat, maybe it would be better to link ED (the name sucks) to weapon cooldown. Instead of ballistics, missiles and Gauss generating additional heat they would generate longer cooldowns when fired in multiples. The percentages of increased cooldown and the number of weapons it takes to trigger them would have to be worked out through testing much like the ED percentages have been.

[Lostdragon]

Where to go from PTS4: Back to the drawing board.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lostdragon, on 13 September 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Where to go from PTS4: Back to the drawing board.

Honestly, the other half of my brain is saying this (I posted this to reddit):

I really want them to consider taking whats on the live server and making some slight changes to balance the things that are under performing. The PTS is going all over the place, and I am really losing confidence that it is going to get to a point where more than 5-10% of the pop is happy with it. Seriously... despite complaints of alphas and ghost heat, that isn't what is causing people to leave the game. Gameplay is good, its just the repetitive TDM that can only be played for so long. Some interesting game modes would help a lot. Faction Play improved would be huge.. that's where Battletech immersion needs to come, and it isn't there.

[Lostdragon]

Gas Guzzler, on 13 September 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

Honestly, the other half of my brain is saying this (I posted this to reddit):

I really want them to consider taking whats on the live server and making some slight changes to balance the things that are under performing. The PTS is going all over the place, and I am really losing confidence that it is going to get to a point where more than 5-10% of the pop is happy with it. Seriously... despite complaints of alphas and ghost heat, that isn't what is causing people to leave the game. Gameplay is good, its just the repetitive TDM that can only be played for so long. Some interesting game modes would help a lot. Faction Play improved would be huge.. that's where Battletech immersion needs to come, and it isn't there.

I think they could balance the game without having to tack on crap like GH and ED. You may have to put heat on the Gauss Rifle, but you have to break some eggs to make an omelet.

I also feel like the PTS has been all over the place with every build and there is no focus. If ED was the solution I don't think we would be seeing such drastic swings in PPCs and ACs on the PTS. If there is an overwrching plan to this I can't see it, unless PGI just wants to say they tried a lot of stuff when people throw ideas at them in the future.

[ScarecrowES]

What do we mean specifically when we're talking about lowering cap? Different methodologies will yield different results. Heat system in TT is defined by 2 sources... heat cap from sinks, and fixed penalty bar. In MWO you now have 4 sources. Base 30, engine sinks, external sinks, and skills.

Pulling heat from different sources will favor different results. Current system gives a major buff to low-cap builds, which always favors dakka. Buffs are reduced but not eliminated under high-cap builds thanks to skills.

Make no mistake, you screw all builds by lowering the cap at all. Going lower than the base numbers TT calls out causes all kinds of problems - wreaks havoc on both the build and heat systems. If you reduce cap and dissipation by lowering the value of external sinks alone, you screw energy builds almost to exclusion.

Better to take it from the base 30pts. But of course, if you do that you also screw low-cap non-dakka mechs... like lights or weak SRM mechs.

Messing with heat cap outright is a bad idea. Your balance will suffer no matter what you do in this regard.

[Deathlike]

Lostdragon, on 13 September 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Where to go from PTS4: Back to the drawing board.

Our balance overlord's mind translated said:

Where to go from PTS4: Back to the Dartboard of Balance™ I go.

[ScarecrowES]

Another point to consider about messing with dissipation. Dissipation ultimately determines how hot your builds run. By base rule sets (and as bastardized in MWO) dissipation is 1/10 your heat cap per second... or full heat cap every 10 seconds.

Thanks to how the build system and heat system work together, players will typically build their mechs along a very predictable heat management value. Players mount enough sinks to produce a cap commiserate with their weapon heat requirements... dissipation rates will be set to eliminate that heat at the same fundamental rate for every build.

If the system was pure from TT, it wouldn't matter what kind of weapon you mount... your expected output to cooldown ratios should be largely the same. MWO's system goofs this up.

Low-cap and high-dissipation highly favors low-heat weapons. Mostly ballistic and light energy.

Remember, the only reason mechs that would be "heat neutral" in TT are not in MWO is because cooldowns are faster. Keeping dissipation in step with capacity is important to making sure this stays true. A 4x cUAC/10 Kodiak only has a heat requirement of 24pts if you double-tap. To make this heat neutral in MWO, you need a dissipation rate of 9.6pts/sec. Assuming 15 sinks, which is the most common build, that's 3.0pts/sec (TT, have to look up what it is for MWO... similar). It would be virtually impossible to put a check on this mech by lowering external heat sink capacity, and increasing dissipation let's it fire a LOT more before shutdown.

Drop those to cUAC/5s and some cERSL and you'll NEVER overheat.

First thing, we should look at bringing sinks and cap/dissipation back to full parity. This immediately puts a check on dakka without hurting energy. None of this engine vs external crap. This might hurt lighter low-cap mechs a bit...unsure. But if so, there are other remedies for this.

But seriously, build-defined caps and dissipation will always work best as these are how the game was designed.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

ScarecrowES, on 13 September 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

If the system was pure from TT, it wouldn't matter what kind of weapon you mount... your expected output to cooldown ratios should be largely the same. MWO's system goofs this up.

You make a false assumption here, that PGI didn't intend for this system to be different from TT.