219 replies to this topic

[Nastyogre]

Call me a grognard. A TableTop enthusiast that doesn't understand shooters whatever. Get that out of your system and read, just humor me for a moment.

I just don't understand why we don't use the mechanics presented in Table top. Before you go nuts, just read it. Take the plan as a whole not each individual idea.

1.Use Table Top armor values. Before you say "Remember Beta and the Gauss Cats?" Yes I do, Legendary Founder, I was there. Lights die if they expose themselves to easy shots, just like they should. It would force them to scout as they should be. Tough lights that can stand in for a bit would be valued. Who pilots a Clan Adder? Can't remember the last time I saw one. It should be a terror with twin ER PPC's. It's a target currently.

2. Make the firing cycle closer to the Table top round (which is ten seconds) "WHAT? fire weapons every ten seconds? OH the horror!!!" No, we could allow it, (or not) but have that generate significant extra heat. I know we sort of have this already, but with the other effects players would avoid firing too quickly very often. Some weapons couldn't really do it at all. Long loading weapons like Gauss and LRM racks need some time to charge/load etc.

3. Use the heat scale with effects from table top. Now I don't propose some sort of negative impact to your aim where your shots would magically miss, but simply slow your mech down as your heat increases. Slow the move, twist and arm track as well as a proposed convergence. This effectively makes you less accurate. You might pull that big alpha, but you aren't going to get much of a second salvo if your opponent moves. (Remember firing and recycle takes longer so almost all units could move in such a way that a second pinpoint alpha is going to be tough if you have significantly overheated). Don't forget ammo cookoffs. " BOO RANDOMNESS IN A SHOOTER" Screw that we know this is meant to be a simulation. We already have random in the crit possibility, preventing players with ammo from being stupid is not a big handicap. No it doesn't bias towards lasers heavily. Lasers with a real heat scale have serious overheating concerns. It could be reasonably balanced with adjusting the fire cycles.

4. Program multiple recticles to eliminate pin point convergence. Arm weapons sweep and converge. Torso mounted weapons have "semi-fixed" points that traverse a small field. 20 or 30 degrees. So with some a little time and a cool mech you get a direct pinpoint alpha IF you have lined up the shot. Against a target at much distance, moving quickly, you aren't going to get big perfect alphas very often. Again, heat impacts the ability of the torso recticles to move and converge thus you are more often needing to fire right side/left side torso weapons. Longer TTK. I would bet convergence would work if the game were slower paced. The system wouldn't have to work so hard to make it all work out. It would have the time to do it.

5. Slow mechs down to prevent just rushing and back stabbing. As it sits, lights move so quickly they should rip their own legs off as they try and turn and stop. With slowing the fire cycle you have to slow the units. These are big 20-100 ton robots. They shouldn't be nearly as nimble as they are.

6. Give into the concept that in Faction Warfare Clan would fight 9-10 to 12. With real values, the Clan advantages in weight and heat dissipation would be too great. That or fight 12 to 12 but with a big tonnage differential. Easier if you simply fight 2 stars vs a company. (that's 10 to 12 that don't know the lore)

7. Rework unit customization to require more or less canon-ish builds. Simply disallow boating 12 Large lasers or even 6. (maybe 6 on an assault chassis) ";But I want a Quickdraw that boats 4 PPC's" Well too damn bad. A couple? Sure! Free up the tonnage, swap in the weapons. Bingo. Another way to limit gross pinpoint damage is making most builds unable to be customized to that point. Laser burn time (which should be kept), multiple recticles and non-perfect convergence will stop the rest. Will some builds be able to really hammer somebody? Sure an Awesome-8Q tricked out to carry 4 PPC's would be a heat beast but

Make customization cost, ALOT. not swapping one class of weapon for another. Med pulse to med or ER med. No, cheap easy. No problem. Drop two med slots for a Large. Sure, a little more pricey. Major overhaul turning a missile boat into an energy boat? IF possible, it will cost millions of Cbills. Why? Huge amount of time to refit. That Archer isn't meant to carry 3 PPC's You should have bought a Marauder-D and tweaked it. Using weapon "class and weight" slots. So small, medium and large energy/ballistic/Missile. Make it possible to swap out types to some extent, just not a great extent. This makes variants more viable. Centurion-9A with a PPC? That's pretty pricey, but probably possible. Centurion 9-AL? Easy, it's already setup to carry an energy weapon.

8. Rework payouts to reward cooperative play more, a whole lot more. Sure solo kills are nice but if the money for a kill was split among all those that damaged it and provided targetting data? Nobody would use missile boats to farm cbills if they lost half the cbills to the units providing them targetting data if the LRMs were fired indirectly. Big Cbill bonuses to units using TAG and Narc. Hell, provide MC or some sort of other "currency" that players that played cooperatively would receive that lone wolves would not.

9. Real crit effects. Joints, engines (that create heat) gyros. Not just weapons and engine kills. Kills take more time. So these effects become meaningful. I'm not for tactical crits and spalling is too hard to program I would think. So shooting wouldn't be as much about the kill but the cripple THEN the kill.

10. Physical combat. Simple enough to line up punches and kicks. Tough on moving targets, easy on slow movers and stationary targets. DFA's. There are "shooters" out there with physicals. It's not impossible or even hard to do, it can't be, too many other games do it.

What do you get to do? The benefits.
Do away with ghost heat and energy draw. No quirks. None needed.


This sort of a system would be a one time big reprogram. Then all of the tweaking could be done with firing cycle changes (if AC's or LL or whatever seemed to strong, tweak them down a bit, or up if too weak) PERHAPS minor quirks to mechs. Your modules could be used to adjust things like your build, module to allow a free weapon class swap for customization, a module to diminish heat effects. Achievements to improve convergence, twist, turn and heat scale become meaningful because those items are ALL meaningful in the game when slowed down and heat scale and convergence is brought in.


Then the game could be focused on developing a meaningful Faction Warfare. A storyline campaign, (wouldn't it be great to progress through campaigns with your units?) New mechs (and variants), maps. People would PAY to play this quality of a game. Hell, You could make Quick play the only Free to play mode and make faction warfare and campaign modes payments (big upfront cost like a retail game or a low subscription)

It would make a vibrant interesting game. True to Battletech AND Mechwarrior. It would get the focus off of constant silly rebalancing and on to meaningful content and even moderated events.

I only play a bit anymore. So much just seems off. Artic Cheetahs are terrors. (and Firestarters before them) A three to a half dozen Autocannons are better than Gauss and great terror of the AC 20. LRMS that go from the end all be all to meaningless and back again. When I want nothing more than to mindlessly blow up a robot, I play MWO. I wish it were more than that. </p>

[Mcgral18]

There are no Engine (killing) Crits


Gimping Lights is a bad plan


TT damage can be as simple as an AC20 doing 5 damage and having a 2.5s cycle time (They didn't go that route, their prerogative)

Edited by Mcgral18, 13 September 2016 - 10:57 AM.

[Hotthedd]

For #2 the easiest solution would be to keep the damage and heat values per 10 seconds, as in TT.

For example, An AC/10 could fire twice in ten seconds, but do half the TT heat and damage per shot.

For #4, I am a proponent of reticle bloom, as it has the same effect, without the extra programming headache.

[kapusta11]

Such a grognard.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

1.Use Table Top armor values. Before you say "Remember Beta and the Gauss Cats?" Yes I do, Legendary Founder, I was there. Lights die if they expose themselves to easy shots, just like they should. It would force them to scout as they should be. Tough lights that can stand in for a bit would be valued. Who pilots a Clan Adder? Can't remember the last time I saw one. It should be a terror with twin ER PPC's. It's a target currently.

The Adder would be even more of a joke with TT armor values, and we have had double armor/internals since closed beta, and that includes the entire era of the Gauss Cat.

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

5. Slow mechs down to prevent just rushing and back stabbing. As it sits, lights move so quickly they should rip their own legs off as they try and turn and stop. With slowing the fire cycle you have to slow the units. These are big 20-100 ton robots. They shouldn't be nearly as nimble as they are.

Because apparently being the worst class is just not good enough for some people

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 September 2016 - 10:13 AM.

[Nastyogre]

kapusta11, on 13 September 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Such a grognard.

Useless response. I don't see a solution proposed by you. This game is a pointless, dying BAD version of Team Fortress with robots. You did seem my statement of "call me a grognard" right so your ad hominem attack and the poisoning the well attack means nothing. Try again my young padawan.

[RestosIII]

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Nerf light mechs

[Nastyogre]

Mcgral18, on 13 September 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

There are no Engine (killing) Crits


Gimping Lights is a bad plan


TT damage can be as simple as an AC20 doing 5 damage and having a 2.5s cycle time (They didn't go that route, their prerogative)

It's not about gimping lights but making them do the job they are meant to do. Scout, Support, Flank, Hit and Run and hunt in packs. Virtually no light can go toe to toe with anything heavier with a medium for very long and survive in TT, nor should they be able to. They can now. We can go back to the days of a Commando being able to circle jerk an Atlas because it carried enough armor to survive a full short ranged salvo. All because we could jam enough of an engine into it to make it unhittable AND have enough weaponry to kill the Atlas.

You have to move beyond the mindset of "peek and hide, high alpha" This is a more measured, deliberate approach to the game rather than just making an unbalnced robot shooter, that they have to artificially adjust with Byzantine rules just to approach some level of balance.

RestosIII, on 13 September 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

See the above response. You ignore the whole by looking at a single idea that would indeed Nerf lights rather than just make them do the job they were meant to do. It makes Mediums the workhorses they should be but they too would be unable to tangle 1 on 1 with a heavy and get off unscathed or an assault and survive. Just like they shouldn't be able to.

Edited by Nastyogre, 13 September 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

It's not about gimping lights but making them do the job they are meant to do. Scout, Support, Flank, Hit and Run and hunt in packs.

That is the definition of gimping, because in actual matches where people aren't potatoes lights scout and flank because that is all they can do without getting booped, and you are talking about making them worse.

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

Virtually no light can go toe to toe with anything heavier with a medium for very long and survive in TT, nor should they be able to. They can now.

Only if you are bad at this game can they go toe to toe with most mechs.

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

We can go back to the days of a Commando being able to circle jerk an Atlas because it carried enough armor to survive a full short ranged salvo. All because we could jam enough of an engine into it to make it unhittable AND have enough weaponry to kill the Atlas.

The difference between then and now has nothing to do with engines or firepower, but has to do with HSR and streaks that always hit CT.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 13 September 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[Nastyogre]

Mcgral18, on 13 September 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

There are no Engine (killing) Crits

Right, but MWO does acknowledge crits by allowing for side torso destruction so in a bassackward way they do acknowledge the engine crit.

The point is, we should use crits. It would even provide more purpose for your beloved lights. Can openers go in and the flankers roll in to exploit the holes. Move your mindset out of "Boating/high alpha." That is THE single biggest problem with the game. Nothing fixes it until you fundamentally change the system to make it impossible/ not advantageous to do so.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I have a feeling the game would go from dying straight to dead with the changes to proposed.

Nerfing lights into oblivion, making customization a massive cbill sink which will drain new player's stores and generally make the game grindier, further nerfing gauss and lrms, having clan mechs be objectively better, AKA making no one ever buy IS mechs since they'd suck for quick play.

Not to mention you'd be entirely changing up what this game was based from, by limiting the customization so much based on canon loadouts and cbill sinks you entirely remove what some people play the game for.

A lot of the changes you're discussing here would turn out quite badly.

[RestosIII]

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

It's not about gimping lights but making them do the job they are meant to do. Scout, Support, Flank, Hit and Run and hunt in packs. Virtually no light can go toe to toe with anything heavier with a medium for very long and survive in TT, nor should they be able to. They can now. We can go back to the days of a Commando being able to circle jerk an Atlas because it carried enough armor to survive a full short ranged salvo. All because we could jam enough of an engine into it to make it unhittable AND have enough weaponry to kill the Atlas.

You have to move beyond the mindset of "peek and hide, high alpha" This is a more measured, deliberate approach to the game rather than just making an unbalnced robot shooter, that they have to artificially adjust with Byzantine rules just to approach some level of balance.



See the above response. You ignore the whole by looking at a single idea that would indeed Nerf lights rather than just make them do the job they were meant to do. It makes Mediums the workhorses they should be but they too would be unable to tangle 1 on 1 with a heavy and get off unscathed or an assault and survive. Just like they shouldn't be able to.

"Job they are meant to do". Okay. So, tell me how ANY game mode outside of possibly conquest is setup for anything besides pure combat. Skirmish? Objective is just to kill every mech, so if a light mech isn't capable of fighting on its own, then it's dead weight. Assault? Same deal but with a TINY chance of a cap out. Domination? Skirmish in a tiny bubble, where "scouting" is even more worthless. So apparently, you just want mechs to be "better" the higher tonnage they are. Best balancing plan 2016.

[Deathlike]

TT is fundamentally useless for balancing an online multiplayer game on many levels. While DiceJesus determined if you'd hit, a player's ability to aim is usually leagues beyond book engineered kill/headshots, and you can only put so many RNGJesus things on weapons like SRMs and LBX where human aim is still going to be OP.

So, don't even try.

[Nastyogre]

Really?

RestosIII, on 13 September 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

"Job they are meant to do". Okay. So, tell me how ANY game mode outside of possibly conquest is setup for anything besides pure combat. Skirmish? Objective is just to kill every mech, so if a light mech isn't capable of fighting on its own, then it's dead weight. Assault? Same deal but with a TINY chance of a cap out. Domination? Skirmish in a tiny bubble, where "scouting" is even more worthless. So apparently, you just want mechs to be "better" the higher tonnage they are. Best balancing plan 2016.

Wait really? Figuring out where the enemy is has no value? responding to the enemy fast movers (that you could fight effectively against) has no value. Backstabbing, providing LRM targetting data?

EVERY game mode benefits from that, especially if mechs more more slowly and have more difficulty tracking targets. Your assertion that this "NERFs lights" isn't even proven. Slower firing, slower torso traversing, non-pinpoint convergence lights last LONGER not shorter. They just can't hop out in front of something much bigger and expect to survive.

Slower moving mechs help negate the need for HSR as well.

A more balanced system actually allows for development of better operations too. I have a feeling PGI spends a whole lot of time on balance issues rather than finding a system that works and being done with it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

providing LRM targetting data?

If LRMs were useful, that might be a thing, but even then making it so LRM boats are self-sustaining would still be valuable.

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Figuring out where the enemy is has no value? responding to the enemy fast movers (that you could fight effectively against) has no value. Backstabbing

They already do this in high end play.

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

They just can't hop out in front of something much bigger and expect to survive.

Again, unless you are a potato, they don't do that.

[RestosIII]

Nastyogre, on 13 September 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Really?

Wait really? Figuring out where the enemy is has no value? responding to the enemy fast movers (that you could fight effectively against) has no value. Backstabbing, providing LRM targetting data?

EVERY game mode benefits from that, especially if mechs more more slowly and have more difficulty tracking targets. Your assertion that this "NERFs lights" isn't even proven. Slower firing, slower torso traversing, non-pinpoint convergence lights last LONGER not shorter. They just can't hop out in front of something much bigger and expect to survive.

Slower moving mechs help negate the need for HSR as well.

A more balanced system actually allows for development of better operations too. I have a feeling PGI spends a whole lot of time on balance issues rather than finding a system that works and being done with it.

Most maps are small enough that "figuring out where the enemy is" happens within 30 seconds, and the maps that don't? People almost 100% of the time go to the same spots. Backstabbing/LRM targetting data? With the fact that everyone can mount UAVs and NARC's, mediums like the shadow cat could do that with the same strengths unless you nerfed them into the ground as well, but with the advantage of not having tiny amounts of armor. It doesn't matter what the convergence on the heavier mechs is, one lucky shot after removing the doubled armor/component will turn something like a locust into an urban legend instead of a mech. Sure, LRMs will be "good" finally, but only because a couple salvos will turn a light mech into a flaming pile of garbage.

[Motroid]

Nastyogre, I REALLY see your point.
I was in the same camp long ago. Then I realized that all those changes along the lines of the original tt bt game would make for a pretty un-fun videogame to play.
It would be slow, strategic maybe even a thinking mans shooter and much more faithful to the source material. But I doubt it would make for a more fun videogame for most players except a few so called bt purists and simulation lovers.
Sorry but that train has left long ago...

[Nastyogre]

Deathlike, on 13 September 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

TT is fundamentally useless for balancing an online multiplayer game on many levels. While DiceJesus determined if you'd hit, a player's ability to aim is usually leagues beyond book engineered kill/headshots, and you can only put so many RNGJesus things on weapons like SRMs and LBX where human aim is still going to be OP.

So, don't even try.

I agree aim works. It's just too easy and too flawed with no negatives for doing the things that should make it very hard.

Tell you a little story. Old Wargaming buddy of mine is a US Marine. The real deal. One day I expressed how incredulous I was when I had seen footage of a cop and a crook shooting at each other no further away than the width of a car. Nobody was shot.

He pointed out to me how hard it was to hit anything with a pistol if you or your target is moving, especially if YOU are moving. He had me hold out my arms like I had a pistol, Then take 1 step. Ok off target but not too hard to move my arms. 2 Steps. I was more off target and had moved across much of my body. a 3rd step and it was difficult to remain pointed at my target. He said "OK do that fast, when people are shooting at you."

Making weapons shoot at reasonable time frames. (The M1 Abrams doesn't unload it's 120 MM shells every three to 4 seconds, it shoots 5 to 6 times a minute) Sounds like the 10 second firing cycle would be... accurate for large main weapons.

[Roughneck45]

1. No. Less durability means more high alpha deaths. If we went to stock armor values every weapon would need to be changed too.

2. I'm okay with longer recycle times. I think that needs to be the main difference between ranged and brawl weapons. Short range guns should have higher DPS.

3. Yes to more adverse effects from heat.

4. No. Would make the game even more difficult for noobs and wouldn't actually solve high alpha PPD it would just change which mechs were the most efficient at it and seriously nerf a few mechs into the dirt.

5. No. All mechs are supposed to be balanced, as opposed to the old games where you just tonned up the whole time. Lights are already hard to play, speed is their only defense.

6. Sure I guess. FW needs a complete overhaul IMO anyway.

7. Mech customization has always been part of the game. Taking it away from people isn't a good idea. Making it all more expensive won't be a good thing either, it would just prevent a lot of people from having fun with one of the main features of the game.

8. Considering damage done is the most important stat for game score and c-bills is kinda already does this. When we have 3 game modes and the most efficient way to win is kill the other team in all 3 damage is always going to be the most important.

9. Sounds cool to me. I think there should be more explosions in the game period, if you lose an arm or something there should be a nice explosion with the part flying off. I'm hesitant about RNG but there are ways around that.

10. I'd love ramming and melee combat, would add a whole new awesome dynamic to the game.

I get where your coming from with all the suggestions. This game has no soul. The only thing linking it to battletech and Mechwarrior are the mechs themselves. So much potential with so little delivery.

Edited by Roughneck45, 13 September 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Nastyogre]

Motroid, on 13 September 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

Nastyogre, I REALLY see your point. I was in the same camp long ago. Then I realized that all those changes along the lines of the original tt bt game would make for a pretty un-fun videogame to play. It would be slow, strategic maybe even a thinking mans shooter and much more faithful to the source material. But I doubt it would make for a more fun videogame for most players except a few so called bt purists and simulation lovers. Sorry but that train has left long ago...

Is the game fun now? The meta-skew from Dual Gausscats, to LRMS to Poptart PPC's and Gauss to Laservomit (LRMS made a brief resurgence there) to whatever the heck it is now, sort of SRMs? With energy draw its going to be umm, Medium lasers because they do the most damage for the least power?

This doesn't need to be an arcade game. It shouldn't be an arcade game.

I do appreciate your response more than just "It would Nerf lights"