53 replies to this topic

[AbsUserName]

If group fire was banned from the game, the boating AND the alpha problem would be solved all at once. And the time-to-kill would also get an improvement. Perhaps even doing away with ghost heat etc.
"But muh skillz"
Yes, the skill to "touch and fade" is much maligned as very unfun for the receiving end of the alpha strike: one single aim, 50+ dmg pts, retreat into cover for cooldown. And it favors static, hiding gameplay in a game where armor is made to be used.

If every weapon group could only be set to chain fire, the elite players could still show their top-tier skill: consistently aiming again and again the various weapons. Surely using the 6 weapon groups fired all at once might enable a 6LL alpha, but it can be designed against by enforcing more strict weapon grouping (i.e., 2 energy groups, 2 ballistic groups, 2 missile groups, 1 alpha strike. Other designs are possible and should be tested).

Surely this idea needs further improvement, but it's a start.

[AphexTwin11]

AbsUserName, on 13 September 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

If group fire was banned from the game, the boating AND the alpha problem would be solved all at once. And the time-to-kill would also get an improvement. Perhaps even doing away with ghost heat etc.
"But muh skillz"
Yes, the skill to "touch and fade" is much maligned as very unfun for the receiving end of the alpha strike: one single aim, 50+ dmg pts, retreat into cover for cooldown. And it favors static, hiding gameplay in a game where armor is made to be used.

If every weapon group could only be set to chain fire, the elite players could still show their top-tier skill: consistently aiming again and again the various weapons. Surely using the 6 weapon groups fired all at once might enable a 6LL alpha, but it can be designed against by enforcing more strict weapon grouping (i.e., 2 energy groups, 2 ballistic groups, 2 missile groups, 1 alpha strike. Other designs are possible and should be tested).

Surely this idea needs further improvement, but it's a start.

That is surely a creative idea, and would definitely change the game. However, I'm always intrigued by suggestions that defy a sort of chronological logic. What you're essentially saying, is that by year 3000-whatever, man has been able to craft 100 ton death machines that can walk on two legs without any problems, in all sorts of terrain (water, uphill, downhill), are powered by nuclear fusion, etc. etc. etc., yet they can't fire more than one weapon at the same time? We can fly to any planet of our choosing hoarding cargo weighing thousands of tons , yet firing three machine guns at once is where you draw the line? That just makes no sense to me.

Edited by AphexTwin11, 13 September 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

So basically kill any mech that boats laser, have anything with the ability to hold one or two heavy ballistics be king.

K

[Roughneck45]

Sounds like perma-face-tank online

[Deathlike]

I like how bad ideas only demonstrate how bad the player that suggests it is... because it doesn't take much to understand the flaws in the logic.

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

You ever have one of those days where you wake up and just have a burning thought in your brain? In that moment, it defines you. Just sums up the essence of your soul. Really just completes your life. And then before you voice it, you think to yourself "Wait a second, that's really stupid" and you feel embarrassed for having thought it? I had one of those once. The details escape me, but it involved protecting my eyes from dust and bright lights and shampoo via coating them with a thin layer of fecal. Man, sure glad I thought that one through.

[C E Dwyer]

AphexTwin11, on 13 September 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

That is surely a creative idea, and would definitely change the game. However, I'm always intrigued by suggestions that defy a sort of chronological logic. What you're essentially saying, is that by year 3000-whatever, man has been able to craft 100 ton death machines that can walk on two legs without any problems, in all sorts of terrain (water, uphill, downhill), are powered by nuclear fusion, etc. etc. etc., yet they can't fire more than one weapon at the same time? We can fly to any planet of our choosing hoarding cargo weighing thousands of tons , yet firing three machine guns at once is where you draw the line? That just makes no sense to me.

Targeting is lost tech

[BadgerBeard]

AbsUserName, on 13 September 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

snip...
but it can be designed against by enforcing more strict weapon grouping (i.e., 2 energy groups, 2 ballistic groups, 2 missile groups, 1 alpha strike. Other designs are possible and should be tested).

Surely this idea needs further improvement, but it's a start.

Umm...so in order to do away with alpha strikes, you suggest only having one alpha strike group? Seems fair, I mean having multiple alpha strike groups would indeed be OP.

Seriously, did I read that wrong in some way?

[Lukoi Banacek]

So I just fire a bunch as fast as possible (which isn't hard, since groups can be set up with almost no delay between them) and the op's problem with the game really isn't solved at all.

Short of forcing chainfire, you aren't going to remove alphas or significantly large group firing with this suggestion. And even that won't really solve anything. You'll just coerce people into taking the small handful of the largest weapons they can carry and quickly cycle through. If you think frankenmechs are rare now, they'll disappear under such a system.

Get gud on simple concepts perhaps, OP.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 13 September 2016 - 02:00 PM.

[Khobai]

they needed to increase cooldowns on weapons to like 10 seconds long like other mechwarrior games

[Felbombling]

Some of you are being needlessly harsh to the OP. Having an idea that doesn't conform to what you think works doesn't make the person suggesting it 'stupid' or a bad player. I can see where he is going with his idea... if they can limit three plus Gauss Rifle being fired simultaneously, they can do all kinds of things. Forced chain fire of all weapons within a weapon group, while also preventing two weapons firing at the same exact moment. That could be workable if the forced chain fire mechanic was a short interval. It would increase face-time, spread damage out a little more and prevent the game from being a one-button-click-fest. Is it perfect? No... but it is an idea that could be workable with some tinkering.

Look... the main problem that PGI faces is the fact that they have multiple types of players playing the same game wishing it was something different. The twitch shooter crowd loves the fast paced alpha strike and move on to the next victim playstyle. The lore hounds want a little more extended combat, because the Mechs don't feel like hulking war machines right now if they can get vaporized in under five seconds. We get it. So don't marginalize another player for suggesting something that would hinder your preferred game style as not even worthy of investigating.

Agree or disagree, but at least be civil to one another.

[RestosIII]

Are you legitimately damaged in the head?

[FupDup]

StaggerCheck, on 13 September 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Some of you are being needlessly harsh to the OP. Having an idea that doesn't conform to what you think works doesn't make the person suggesting it 'stupid' or a bad player. I can see where he is going with his idea... if they can limit three plus Gauss Rifle being fired simultaneously, they can do all kinds of things. Forced chain fire of all weapons within a weapon group, while also preventing two weapons firing at the same exact moment. That could be workable if the forced chain fire mechanic was a short interval. It would increase face-time, spread damage out a little more and prevent the game from being a one-button-click-fest. Is it perfect? No... but it is an idea that could be workable with some tinkering.

Look... the main problem that PGI faces is the fact that they have multiple types of players playing the same game wishing it was something different. The twitch shooter crowd loves the fast paced alpha strike and move on to the next victim playstyle. The lore hounds want a little more extended combat, because the Mechs don't feel like hulking war machines right now if they can get vaporized in under five seconds. We get it. So don't marginalize another player for suggesting something that would hinder your preferred game style as not even worthy of investigating.

Actually, people would in fact still "click one button." What they would do is assign all weapons to group 1, and then click every 0.5 seconds (chainfire delay) to fire their guns.

The weapons they would use would include PPCs, Gauss, AC/20, and AC/10. Everything else doesn't pack enough upfront punch to be used as a standalone weapon (many weapons have to be used in multiples to be threatening).

How many other FPS games have you played, anyways? I'm assuming not very many, if you truly think that MWO is anywhere close to being a "twitch shooter."

[N0ni]

Group fire has been a feature in Mechwarrior games for decades, why all of a sudden in 2016 does it need to be "banned" aka removed? Why can we not group weapons together in the same range bracket? Is that considered OP? That won't stop boating btw, just alpha strike. Even then it's another terrible band-aid, so no.

[Felbombling]

FupDup, on 13 September 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

How many other FPS games have you played, anyways? I'm assuming not very many, if you truly think that MWO is anywhere close to being a "twitch shooter."

I've played plenty, and I cannot help but notice that being able to focus 50+ damage into one alpha strike does indeed have a 'twitch shooter' feel to it when it can kill off lighter Mechs in one shot. Perhaps my definition of twitch shooter and yours differ.

At any rate, look deeper into the suggestion, Fup. If the cooldown on the heavier weapons is longer, but the lighter weapons like Medium Lasers or SRMs have shorter cooldowns, there would perhaps be a need for multiple weapon groups and weapon configurations to handle different situations. I did say that some tweaking would be involved. The game, as it is set up right now, would probably devolve into the one button PPC, AC/20, AC/10 solution, as you suggested. You assume a .5 second chain fire cooldown. I would suggest something more along the lines of .25 or shorter. What I could see being workable for something like an energy boat is up to six Medium Lasers firing off in chain-fire but taking about 1.5 seconds to cycle through the weapon group... not the 3 seconds you're jumping to, based on current model.

[The Great Unwashed]

AbsUserName, on 13 September 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

If group fire was banned from the game, the boating AND the alpha problem would be solved all at once.

and restrict the number of weapon groups to one.... because I think I can macro my way into firing 6 "chain" weapon groups at once..... but otherwise, great idea! It would be easier still for all mechs to have just one hardpoint.... no cheating your way around that one!

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 13 September 2016 - 05:00 PM.

[Coffee Black]

Every shot is an alpha when all you have is a single ppc.

Personally I'd keep high dmg alphas the same and just increase the speed on lighter mechs, but then of course all wed see are threads about people who had difficulty aiming.

Edited by Soundwave Rune, 13 September 2016 - 06:57 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

StaggerCheck, on 13 September 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Some of you are being needlessly harsh to the OP. Having an idea that doesn't conform to what you think works doesn't make the person suggesting it 'stupid' or a bad player. I can see where he is going with his idea... if they can limit three plus Gauss Rifle being fired simultaneously, they can do all kinds of things. Forced chain fire of all weapons within a weapon group, while also preventing two weapons firing at the same exact moment. That could be workable if the forced chain fire mechanic was a short interval. It would increase face-time, spread damage out a little more and prevent the game from being a one-button-click-fest. Is it perfect? No... but it is an idea that could be workable with some tinkering.

Look... the main problem that PGI faces is the fact that they have multiple types of players playing the same game wishing it was something different. The twitch shooter crowd loves the fast paced alpha strike and move on to the next victim playstyle. The lore hounds want a little more extended combat, because the Mechs don't feel like hulking war machines right now if they can get vaporized in under five seconds. We get it. So don't marginalize another player for suggesting something that would hinder your preferred game style as not even worthy of investigating.

Agree or disagree, but at least be civil to one another.

[Dr Lexus]

Soundwave Rune, on 13 September 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

Every shot is an alpha when all you have is a single ppc.

Personally I'd keep high dmg alphas the same and just increase the speed on lighter mechs, but then of course all wed see are threads about people who had difficulty aiming.

It's almost like some people don't know how to play their mechs

Edited by Dr Lexus, 13 September 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

When are people going to just admit that bad players are just that: bad.

Go ahead and blame whatever you want.
The meta min-maxers are going to stomp you no matter what.

Edited by Boogie138, 13 September 2016 - 07:03 PM.