34 replies to this topic

[Kuaron]

It's a computer game, so why not have all the penalties scale proportionally over their segment of the bar,
and make the HUD features going lost one by one. Target paper doll/ability, later mini map, later own Mech's paper doll.

[Kael Posavatz]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

yes but, your system seems that once you hit your heat Cap(100%),
instead of shutting down your hit goes into a Penalty bar which dissipates at a different Rate,
once you get 30point in your Penalty bar then you shut down,

mine System uses the current heat System,
and just says once you exceed 30points on your Heat Scale then you get Penalties,
so you start out at a 30+10Cap, but adding SHS/DHS will increase your Cap,
however any heat over your 30points on your scale triggers a penalty,

Okay, let me see if I understand this.

A Mist Lynx with an ERPPC, ECM, no DHS above what it is hard loaded with, standing still on Caustic Valley spikes heat above 30% when it fires once. This would trigger a penalty under your system?

Edited by Kael Posavatz, 24 September 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Kuaron]

Why? 14 HS should generate something between 14 and 28 (depending on design and goals) heat cap before penalty bar, if we are speaking about Scarecrow's suggestion.

If we are speaking of Andi's suggestion, there the penalty-free offset is 30 heat (absolute number!), not 30 %.

Edited by Kuaron, 24 September 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Sereglach]

MWO NEEDS some level of heat penalties. It would go a long way to curb the habit of riding the heat scale as close to 100% as possible without overheating.

While I'm not entirely with the OP's or Scarecrow's suggestions as the perfect end-all, they're both certainly worth trying and/or using as a base. On the other hand, MW4 -for example- had simple heat penalties such as a blurred HUD, lower agility, and lower top speed upon reaching critical heat levels. That alone would go a long way in making things feel more immersive . . . just a simple penalty upon reaching critical heat levels.

However, whatever the systems, heat penalties should exist in MWO. Do they need to be copy/paste from TT? No, that would actually be bad. No one would like RNG deciding that their heat sinks melt or that their ammo randomly explodes or the pilot randomly blacks out; but there are other things that'd work just fine for MWO, and they should be explored.

Edited by Sereglach, 24 September 2016 - 09:47 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Kuaron, on 24 September 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

Why? 14 HS should generate something between 14 and 28 (depending on design and goals) heat cap before penalty bar, if we are speaking about Scarecrow's suggestion.

If we are speaking of Andi's suggestion, there the penalty-free offset is 30 heat (absolute number!), not 30 %.

this is True, as in the pictures at the Begining,
=40HeatCap(30+10HS(allMechs)= 75% of your Heat Bar is Penalty Free, this helps Lights not worry as much,
=60HeatCap(30+30HS)=50% 75% of your Heat Bar is Penalty Free, penalties become Apparent the more HS you have,

[C E Dwyer]

I would like to see heat penalties in the game similar to TT.

However I wonder at the complexity, and ability for them to be coded correctly into the game, in a reasonable time scale.

I think this more than anything, is why they have never tried this.

Though if they did, it would be a big plus, in my book, and go a long way, to helping me out the jaded way I feel about the game.

At this stage I think open honesty, rather than protecting ego's is the only thing that's really going to help this game long term.

[ScarecrowES]

Cathy, on 25 September 2016 - 04:01 AM, said:

I would like to see heat penalties in the game similar to TT.

However I wonder at the complexity, and ability for them to be coded correctly into the game, in a reasonable time scale.

I think this more than anything, is why they have never tried this.

Though if they did, it would be a big plus, in my book, and go a long way, to helping me out the jaded way I feel about the game.

At this stage I think open honesty, rather than protecting ego's is the only thing that's really going to help this game long term.

Long ago PGI quietly announced that they solved all the problems necessary to put penalties into the heat scale.

Most of the penalties we're asking for already have analogs in the game...

For instance, movement penalties already exist. When you get legged, for instance, or if you lose a torso in a Clan mech. We even have the ability to do togglable modifiers for speed and maneuverability thanks to MASC. Easy enough to convert the coding for those into scaled heat penalties that activate and turn off at certain heat milestones (shut down already works on this principle).

Various HUD and sensor mechanics are already in the game mechanically. Most just require a bit of art to produce an immersive effect to sorta explain to the player what is happening and why.

HUD fizzle/fade is a good example here. Just seeing your HUD start to blink out will tell you that something bad is happening to your mech. Progressively, it goes from merely annoying to absolutely crippling as you approach shut down. Being unable to reliably aim your shots is a bigger incentive not to push your heat than merely shutting down, I'd say.

Loss of sensor data... mini-map, targeting info, etc... makes it hard to engage the enemy. Loss of target lock, moreso. Loss of reticle entirely when you're rolling up at max heat... almost impossible to fight outside of 270m, yeah?

The mechanics of most types of penalties can be done very quickly... converting ED to TT less than a day. Movement penalties and analog on/off HUD mechanics - a few more days. Penalties that require art, who knows... if priority, only a few days.

Honestly, PGI could have the system I proposed up and running for PTS with most penalties represented in some form or another within a week.

Not sure about Andi's... requires a bit of reconfiguring how everything works. A bit more like the base system than ED... so maybe only a bit longer than mine. Still, probably not more than a week for either.

[Koniving]

I would like a tabletop-esque heat system, but just trying to press it onto MWO as MWO is, with or without Energy Drain... just won't work.

MWO as a whole would need to change.

First off, FLD and as such FLH (front loaded heat) would have to be wiped away.
A good governing system is this:
1) All energy weapons produce 1x tabletop stat rating, no matter how fast or often the weapon variant fires in MWO.
2) All ballistic weapons, except Gauss Rifle and sans or including MGs, can produce up to 2x their tabletop "1 use" rating but using that second rating can cause a jam possibility. RACs once included will still have their 6x tabletop '1 use' rating. Yes, you heard me.
3) All missile weapons will produce up to 1x their tabletop rating.

To elaborate:
Energy) An ML will produce up to 5 damage and 3 heat (NOT 4, 3 goddamn it PGI get it right!). This is regardless of if the variant is a Rassal Blue Beam (fires once in a very quick blue flash; won't fire again for over 9 seconds), an Agra 3L (fires 3 times each with a 0.3 second beam durations within 10 seconds), a Martell (fires a continuous laser that can last up to 1.5 seconds; that full 1.5 seconds is necessary to complete the 5 damage; the laser can be fired all at once or on and off over time; but will overheat once it hits that 1.5 seconds and won't function until the weapon itself cools down. If you did it all at once, that's 8.5 seconds to cool off; if you didn't use it all at once then it is less time proportional to how much of the rating you actually used). The list goes on. The heat for each would be raised different for each weapon; the more front loaded its damage, the more front loaded its heat.

Now, in comparison, a Flamer might last several seconds or quite a bit less depending on the variant (Hotshot Flamers actually shoot a ball of napalm that keeps burning after it is launched; food for thought). A PPC, however, is literally and canonically described in the Tech Manual as the energy equivalent of a Gauss Rifle; which we know a Gauss Rifle is a slow firing monster that is supposed to be PPFLD, unlike autocannons. Thus a PPC would fire once in 10 seconds, deliver 10 damage all in a single blow, and throw 10 heat on you all at once.

Ballistics) The difference between an AC/2 and an AC/20, if both are using the same caliber of ammunition (Whirlwind/L of Blackjack BJ-1 fame and Pontiac/100 of Victor fame each at 30mm: 10 shots equals 2 damage, 100 shots equals 20 damage.) would be different in that the significantly heavier AC/20 will shoot 10 times faster. Its recoil and thus its inevitable spread will be significantly greater.

Since all ballistics as I mentioned able to get two ratings within 10 seconds as per advanced tabletop rules (except Gauss Rifle), The difference between an AC/20 and a UAC/20 would be quite simple... The AC/20 would be proportionally easier to jam and for the case of MWO, would probably take longer to unjam as standard AC jams are caused by overuse and are related to either the feed system or literally melting/warping the barrel into an unusable state in lore which is why they are almost never used to that extent.

This overall balances the AC versus UAC debate, as well as significantly increases the value of the LBX weapon system as while ACs might vary in how much damage they do per bullet, the LBX is always 1 damage per whatever they are and recoil won't be a factor in its accuracy. It will also provide benefit for the additional weight ballistics require, especially with the amount of facetime many of them will require as well as the fact that they 'generally' aren't as front loaded as a large number of laser weapons might be. Also while you won't be spending as much weight on ammo after this kind of slow down, a change to crit health will make sure they are still every bit as dangerous if not more dangerous than now. They will be more compatible with laser weapons now, helping to encourage mixed loadouts.

Missiles) won't require much effort to imagine. If you do not have a full lot of tubes, you may find yourself splitting your salvos up a bit but this means you can pepper more frequently than a one shot wonder in any given 10 second period.

------------------

Now you can use a 30 heat cap, now you can use a proper heat penalty system, and now you have a system that can be balanced by using weapon variants that can be available to specific mechs at the will of the Developer, thereby removing the min/max abuse of the "energy heat gen -30%" style quirks would provide. Specific weapon variants have specific quirks that do not stack or affect other weapons. Specific mechs can use those specific weapons. You "choose your quirks" by choosing your weapon variants.

Finally, cut structure/armor back to 1x.

Bam, lore friendly.
Bam, intuitive.
Bam, easy to control and tune.
Bam, significantly increased variety; as much as PGI is willing to play with stats and visual effects.
Bam, significantly increased mech customization as there won't be just "1-5" builds on metamechs but dozens to hundreds.
Bam, significantly increased potential for mech diversity and value. Even greater still if a sized hardpoint system is added.
Bam, a lot of "pro tabletop" players made happy.
Bam, a lot of "zomg I like to kill things in one shot" players made happy (just carry a Gauss Rifle or PPC; only one necessary, and now aim for a cockpit and 'git gud').
Bam, a lot of "Time to kill is too low" people are now made happy.
Bam, we can have a heat penalty system based on tabletop added to this, added in real time for being at each certain state of heat for longer than X seconds (say 3?) can give you a real good reason to not alpha strike... wait do we even need Energy Drain now? Maybe for Gauss Rifles or Gauss/PPC mixes.
Bam, the heat penalty system can be given some visual representation and even characterization, such as "accuracy penalties" being sweat coming over the eyes and blurring vision complete with changes in pilot animation, breathing and possibly joined with minor head movement. (This way you're still 100% accurate to where the crosshair is, but now it requires some skill and dynamic timing for it to be where you want it when you shoot due to it bobbing with your breathing?)

I could bam for quite a bit at all the positive things this can bring. I can also bring forth a lot of the would-be complaints, too, but those would probably be quelled after experiencing this sort of gameplay.

Edited by Koniving, 25 September 2016 - 06:01 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Koniving, on 25 September 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

I would like a tabletop-esque heat system, but just trying to press it onto MWO as MWO is, with or without Energy Drain... just won't work.

MWO as a whole would need to change.

First off, FLD and as such FLH (front loaded heat) would have to be wiped away.
A good governing system is this:
1) All energy weapons produce 1x tabletop stat rating, no matter how fast or often the weapon variant fires in MWO.
2) All ballistic weapons, except Gauss Rifle and sans or including MGs, can produce up to 2x their tabletop "1 use" rating but using that second rating can cause a jam possibility. RACs once included will still have their 6x tabletop '1 use' rating. Yes, you heard me.
3) All missile weapons will produce up to 1x their tabletop rating.

To elaborate:
Energy) An ML will produce up to 5 damage and 3 heat (NOT 4, 3 goddamn it PGI get it right!). This is regardless of if the variant is a Rassal Blue Beam (fires once in a very quick blue flash; won't fire again for over 9 seconds), an Agra 3L (fires 3 times each with a 0.3 second beam durations within 10 seconds), a Martell (fires a continuous laser that can last up to 1.5 seconds; that full 1.5 seconds is necessary to complete the 5 damage; the laser can be fired all at once or on and off over time; but will overheat once it hits that 1.5 seconds and won't function until the weapon itself cools down. If you did it all at once, that's 8.5 seconds to cool off; if you didn't use it all at once then it is less time proportional to how much of the rating you actually used). The list goes on. The heat for each would be raised different for each weapon; the more front loaded its damage, the more front loaded its heat.

Now, in comparison, a Flamer might last several seconds or quite a bit less depending on the variant (Hotshot Flamers actually shoot a ball of napalm that keeps burning after it is launched; food for thought). A PPC, however, is literally and canonically described in the Tech Manual as the energy equivalent of a Gauss Rifle; which we know a Gauss Rifle is a slow firing monster that is supposed to be PPFLD, unlike autocannons. Thus a PPC would fire once in 10 seconds, deliver 10 damage all in a single blow, and throw 10 heat on you all at once.

Ballistics) The difference between an AC/2 and an AC/20, if both are using the same caliber of ammunition (Whirlwind/L of Blackjack BJ-1 fame and Pontiac/100 of Victor fame each at 30mm: 10 shots equals 2 damage, 100 shots equals 20 damage.) would be different in that the significantly heavier AC/20 will shoot 10 times faster. Its recoil and thus its inevitable spread will be significantly greater.

Since all ballistics as I mentioned able to get two ratings within 10 seconds as per advanced tabletop rules (except Gauss Rifle), The difference between an AC/20 and a UAC/20 would be quite simple... The AC/20 would be proportionally easier to jam and for the case of MWO, would probably take longer to unjam as standard AC jams are caused by overuse and are related to either the feed system or literally melting/warping the barrel into an unusable state in lore which is why they are almost never used to that extent.

This overall balances the AC versus UAC debate, as well as significantly increases the value of the LBX weapon system as while ACs might vary in how much damage they do per bullet, the LBX is always 1 damage per whatever they are and recoil won't be a factor in its accuracy. It will also provide benefit for the additional weight ballistics require, especially with the amount of facetime many of them will require as well as the fact that they 'generally' aren't as front loaded as a large number of laser weapons might be. Also while you won't be spending as much weight on ammo after this kind of slow down, a change to crit health will make sure they are still every bit as dangerous if not more dangerous than now. They will be more compatible with laser weapons now, helping to encourage mixed loadouts.

Missiles) won't require much effort to imagine. If you do not have a full lot of tubes, you may find yourself splitting your salvos up a bit but this means you can pepper more frequently than a one shot wonder in any given 10 second period.

------------------

Now you can use a 30 heat cap, now you can use a proper heat penalty system, and now you have a system that can be balanced by using weapon variants that can be available to specific mechs at the will of the Developer, thereby removing the min/max abuse of the "energy heat gen -30%" style quirks would provide. Specific weapon variants have specific quirks that do not stack or affect other weapons. Specific mechs can use those specific weapons. You "choose your quirks" by choosing your weapon variants.

Finally, cut structure/armor back to 1x.

Bam, lore friendly.
Bam, intuitive.
Bam, easy to control and tune.
Bam, significantly increased variety; as much as PGI is willing to play with stats and visual effects.
Bam, significantly increased mech customization as there won't be just "1-5" builds on metamechs but dozens to hundreds.
Bam, significantly increased potential for mech diversity and value. Even greater still if a sized hardpoint system is added.
Bam, a lot of "pro tabletop" players made happy.
Bam, a lot of "zomg I like to kill things in one shot" players made happy (just carry a Gauss Rifle or PPC; only one necessary, and now aim for a cockpit and 'git gud').
Bam, a lot of "Time to kill is too low" people are now made happy.
Bam, we can have a heat penalty system based on tabletop added to this, added in real time for being at each certain state of heat for longer than X seconds (say 3?) can give you a real good reason to not alpha strike... wait do we even need Energy Drain now? Maybe for Gauss Rifles or Gauss/PPC mixes.
Bam, the heat penalty system can be given some visual representation and even characterization, such as "accuracy penalties" being sweat coming over the eyes and blurring vision complete with changes in pilot animation, breathing and possibly joined with minor head movement. (This way you're still 100% accurate to where the crosshair is, but now it requires some skill and dynamic timing for it to be where you want it when you shoot due to it bobbing with your breathing?)

I could bam for quite a bit at all the positive things this can bring. I can also bring forth a lot of the would-be complaints, too, but those would probably be quelled after experiencing this sort of gameplay.

You could do all of that, yes. Not sure it would be very balanced, but it can be done. We'd have to do a lot of math to see how any of that would work. You're basically talking redoing all the weapon balance and mechanics from scratch. Not sure that would be easy given the significant change in tempo you're looking at for the weapon types. What exactly are we doing with the heat system, though? Pure TT... something else?

Cuz I've found a way to throw the TT system directly in, keeping everything else in MWO the same. We've been able to confirm the mechanics work, and seems to provide most if not all of your bams too.

[Sereglach]

Koniving, on 25 September 2016 - 05:56 PM, said:

*snip*

Nice, well written, and honestly I'm not averse to most of it. However, given the state of the game, how far it is in its life cycle, and remarks people are already making about PGI's ED PTS series basically "overhauling the fundamental gameplay in a way the majority of the player base won't like" . . .

It'll never happen.

On the other hand, there have been a lot of solid feedback points worth trying that'd accomplish most of your "bam" points when combined. It would also work within the game that PGI is giving us; and not with a complete overhaul of the systems PGI has in place.

I'm not saying I don't like what you wrote. Overall I'd be willing to try it and I think it'd make for a fascinating translation from TT. It'd probably be an incredibly fun and visceral experience. However . . . it's a pipe-dream fantasy at this point. I'm more for working within the realms of what PGI is putting before us and what they might be within the realms of willing to try, to achieve their goals. After all, even HBS is going for a more strategic TT translation and yet if you've looked at the Pre-Pre-Alpha footage -which I'm sure you have- even they're not doing things like 1:1 armor/structure/damage TT translations.

Edited by Sereglach, 25 September 2016 - 07:44 PM.

[Koniving]

Sereglach, on 25 September 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Nice, well written, and honestly I'm not averse to most of it. However, given the state of the game, how far it is in its life cycle, and remarks people are already making about PGI's ED PTS series basically "overhauling the fundamental gameplay in a way the majority of the player base won't like" . . .

It'll never happen.

On the other hand, there have been a lot of solid feedback points worth trying that'd accomplish most of your "bam" points when combined. It would also work within the game that PGI is giving us; and not with a complete overhaul of the systems PGI has in place.

I'm not saying I don't like what you wrote. Overall I'd be willing to try it and I think it'd make for a fascinating translation from TT. It'd probably be an incredibly fun and visceral experience. However . . . it's a pipe-dream fantasy at this point. I'm more for working within the realms of what PGI is putting before us and what they might be within the realms of willing to try, to achieve their goals. After all, even HBS is going for a more strategic TT translation and yet if you've looked at the Pre-Pre-Alpha footage -which I'm sure you have- even they're not doing things like 1:1 armor/structure/damage TT translations.

Oh I know. Even still I've put so much work into this I'm making an animated series temporarily titled "What Battletech would look like as a sim."

This sort of thing is something that had to be done from the start of development. With a bit of research they could have done this from the beginning. Instead the thought process went: "We want it to be like tabletop, but we want heat to matter... and firing once every 10 seconds is boring. Lets make it faster."
"Wow that's hot! So much heat. Shutting down a lot isn't fun. Lets make the threshold rise too. That should help."
"Man things are dying too fast, lets do more health."
"Now everyone is complaining it takes too long to ki--oh I see the problem, lag."
"People are firing more and overheating so much that they explode from our heat causes crit damage system, lets remove it."
"We fixed the lag problem with HSR, and removed the crit-damage-from-heat and made it so that losing heatsinks doesn't reduce your heat cooling ability, but now everyone is alpha striking and people are dying too quick. Lets tweak some stats."
"We tweaked some stats and now insta-kills are happening. We need something drastic! We need... Ghost Heat!"

And it just keeps going and going.

I do see that BT opted for the 2x structure/armor. And that the AC/5 is delivering 1.5 damage per bullet. Notice the amount of misses, however?

I've realized already that such a trend will need to happen in terms of the weapon variants I'd seek. An obvious example is using a Battletech Calculator, a Pontiac 100 AC/20 on a Victor, whether the 100 shots are in a single second or spread across several seconds even under the most ideal conditions the best I was able to get was 84 hits out of 100 and the median average was 49 and the worst was 3 out of 100. Meanwhile an AC/20 that's much more heavily FLD may be hit or miss, but each hit is significantly more impressive even if they both only churn out 20 to 40 damage per 10 seconds (a drop from MWO's 60+ per 8 seconds for a single AC/20).

As such, the solution to this from a weapon variant point of view, since choosing weapon variants from what is available is akin to "picking your quirks", is that a baseline or midline expectation of what a weapon should do will be set up. Using MWO's ML, 3 unquirked shots of 1 second long within 8 seconds or in this case within 10 seconds could be a baseline. Those that lean closer to the baseline would have minor positive and negative quirks if any at all, and those that stray far from it like the Rassal Blue Beam toward PPFLD in such a way as the Halo Spartan Laser or the Martell which is more of a Star Trek Next Gen Phaser, will have their own positive and negative quirks that come out of a geometrical shape of balance so that every variant ultimately 'equals out'.

Also, recall that even Battletech entries as early as 1987 (that I've found) state that all weapon classes are loose rather than exact. Meaning they can do somewhat over and somewhat less than stated. As such the greater FLD-oriented ACs and lasers will probably fall short of class expectations (for example an AC/20 that might do 16 total damage instead of 20 per rating) and the extreme DPS-oriented may exceed class expectations (an AC/20 that needs to fire a lot of shots to do its damage might ultimately do 24 total damage instead of 20). The extent of this range is covered under the Glancing/Direct Blows rule.

In anticipation of this, I already created a concept table of "aspects" which would influence a weapon variant and how it performs.
This is from the Ballistic concept table of aspects, I also have missile and energy.

Spoiler

Variant concepts:
Ballistics.
Uses / abilities.

Examples:
Carbine; gives faster rate of fire with a shorter barrel in exchange for reduced accurate range. Change in weight is removed from barrel and applied to firing and loading mechanisms.
Long barrel; has longer accurate range in exchange for reduced rate of fire. Change in weight is taken from firing and loading mechanisms and distributed to the barrel.
Improved Cooling Jacket; Increases the amount of cooling the weapon itself receives before heat is transferred to the heatsinks via heat pumps. Change in weight is taken from Durability and distributed to the Cooling Jacket. (weapon takes less damage and functionality is easier to lose but in return the weapon generates less 'Mech Heat'.).

Basic contributors.
Caliber (determines bullet size which in turn determines bullet characteristics and base stats).
Range (both of weapon and ammo) (barrel is a modifier of ammo range) (bullet drop is a bullet factor)
Rate (how fast it fires)
Accuracy (barrel and weapon are modifiers of ammo accuracy) (stability of projectile is a weapon factor). (Recoil is a weapon factor and affects accuracy potential).
Heat (Generated per shot within the weapon itself before it reaches the mech.)
Reload (how frequently it can be brought to fire again, if there's a lull due to cassette change)
Cassette size (half-cassette, standard, double cassette, belt-fed, etc.)
Economics (cost, availability)
Repair ability
Durability (Materials, number of slots that need to be 'intact' for the weapon to still function)
Weight
Alignment (convergence capability)
Total damage output
Fire type (auto, singles, bursts)
Special munition compatibility (Either yes or no. If yes then list.)
Jam potential? Can unjam?
Double-fire? (As a toggleable trait, this can help control some seemingly overpowered variants; also included because of Gauss Rifles).
High/Mid/Low mount? (has value that cannot be overlooked).
Hard Point size (could vary, allowing some weapon types to have a way of slipping onto mechs that wouldn't normally be able to carry them due to a sized hardpoint system.)
Audio level? (Report level, reload level; important for being detected by sound sensors.)
Emission (flash, smoke, important for visual detection.)
Thermal visibility (through enemy scanner)
Detectability (delay until can be detected and specifically identified through traditional sensors.)
Position (has considerable factors in balancing but is a consideration not a tool).

Positive quirks.
Longer range
Faster rate of fire
More ammo
Faster reloading
Secondary reload method
Constant ammo flow
Cooling jacket (STD) or improved




Negative quirks.
Shorter range
Slower rate of fire
Less ammo
Slower reloading
Risky reload (limb must be kept straight or could break/jam)
Vulnerable belt
Insufficient or lacking cooling jacket

Uncertain quirks
Ammo conservative.
Empty shell retainer (An economic consideration, rather than empty shells becoming among the 'scrap pool' that a winning side may get, the shells are kept within the mech specifically for the purpose of reducing reload costs).
Upward ejection (aesthetic, unless shells can cause damage to infantry?)
Side ejection (aesthetic, unless shells can cause damage to infantry?)
Bottom ejection (aesthetic, unless shells can cause damage to infantry?)
Delayed ejection (aesthetic, but could have an interesting consideration for seismic or audio sensors?)

[Koniving]

ScarecrowES, on 25 September 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

You could do all of that, yes. Not sure it would be very balanced, but it can be done. We'd have to do a lot of math to see how any of that would work. You're basically talking redoing all the weapon balance and mechanics from scratch. Not sure that would be easy given the significant change in tempo you're looking at for the weapon types. What exactly are we doing with the heat system, though? Pure TT... something else? Cuz I've found a way to throw the TT system directly in, keeping everything else in MWO the same. We've been able to confirm the mechanics work, and seems to provide most if not all of your bams too.

Reserving this spot to answer when I can.

Short answer:
Two ways to do this.
Literal real-time TT, which I call Static Cooling Rate. (This is akin to Mechwarriors 1-4, except that 2 had 40 threshold, 4 had 60 threshold, 1 and 3 had 30 threshold though Pirate's Moon has 40 threshold).
That is Mech threshold 30, heatsink threshold (SEPARATE FROM MECH THRESHOLD that also fills at the same time!) = heatsink count x1 for std or x2 for double, and finally cooling rate is heatsink count /10 x1 for std or x2 for double.
Hit 30 Mech threshold, unconditional shutdown. Remain locked in shutdown until 14 heat (46.6666666667%).

Note: Per TechManual, override has absolutely nothing to do with shutdown. When a reactor is at 80% of the maximum heat, weapons are locked out as a safety feature, preventing any additional firings. While rarely done by Clan pilots, it is extremely common for Inner Sphere pilots to override this weapons lockout in order to continue firing anyway. There Is No Shutdown Override.

Heatsink threshold: used to determine coolant efficiency reductions and heatsink melting. Over heatsink threshold for 3 seconds, coolant efficiency reduction. Over for 5? Heatsink melt. Difference? Coolant can be replaced via coolant truck in battles of attrition (faction play). Melted heatsinks is permanent for battle duration.
Cooling rate is a steady and continuous rate.
Engine produces heat at 0 units for on, 1 unit for cruise, 2 units for running and 3 units for sprint.
Jumpjets produce 3 units of heat for initial jump of 12 meters up and 30 meters forward + 1 additional unit of heat per additional 6 meters height and additional 30 meters forward.
Conditions for thermal penalties; reach penalty level and maintain or exceed it for 3 seconds; suffer penalty until after 3 seconds of getting below it.

"Why a heatsink threshold at all?"
In this design, the heatsink threshold is there just to govern heatsink efficiency loss and melting, which in truth would only come up on alpha strikes or some serious DPS-oriented shenanigans like multiple UAC/20s.
Basically, as you build heat, both Mech Threshold (for movement, accuracy, etc. penalties) will fill and the heatsink threshold will fill alongside it at the same rate.
Exceed your heatsink threshold and stuff won't cool as well due to reduced cooling efficiency which is like losing a heatsink though in longer battles you can get it back with a Coolant Truck. Exceed it for 5 seconds and you melt a heatsink permanently.
It is possible to have a higher Heatsink threshold than Mech threshold, however with how fragile I would make heatsinks themselves this would really be of little comfort. Especially since Clan DHS are twice as easy to hit and damage than IS Standard, and IS DHS are three times as easy to hit as IS Standard.

Realistic Literal Tabletop based on Thermal Theory, which I call Dynamic Cooling Rate.
That is Mech threshold 30, heatsink threshold (separate from Mech Threshold but they split heat between them now) = heatsink count then x1 for std or x2 for double, Weapon Specific Thermal Threshold and finally cooling rate is heatsink count /10 x1 for std or x2 for double at maximum potential!
Hit 30 Mech threshold, unconditional shutdown. Remain locked in shutdown until 14 heat (46.6666666667%). Again no shutdown override.
Heatsink threshold: used to determine coolant efficiency reductions and heatsink melting as above. However, there's more to it described below.
Weapon Thermal Threshold: Each weapon has a thermal threshold of their given rating in which they would stop functioning for safety reasons
Cooling rate is a dynamic and changing rate. More described below.
Engine produces same heat as above.
Jumpjets produce same heat as above.

The difference for dynamic cooling rate is this:
When you produce heat, first the weapon cooling jacket starts to absorb heat; depending on the variant and health of the weapon this could be average, below average or exceed average. (Stage 1. Important only because weapons will stop functioning or take damage if they overheat.)
Heatpumps immediately will try to split that heat into the Heatsink Threshold and Mech Threshold. (Stage 2, within half a second of using weapons)
Both Heatsink and Mech Thresholds will drain into Heatsink Dissipation (aka cooling) gradually. (Stage 3, occurring as stage 2 does.)
As Heatsink Threshold fills, the rate at which it will remove heat from both Mech and Heatsink threshold is reduced proportionately.
In other words, if your heatsink threshold is 25% full, your heatsinks are dissipating at 75% of maximum speed.
Since Heatsink Threshold balances heat from the Mech Threshold, you are getting half the built up heat in a penalty tank (Mech threshold) and half in a 'storage tank' (Heatsink threshold). Abusing the 'storage tank' will of course have its repercussions but it won't feel as severe as the other more literal tabletop with direct penalties to your mech.
A Heatsink Threshold of 98% or greater will still trickle heat dissipation at a minimum of 0.1 heat/second so you'll never get thermally locked or a minimum of 0.5 heat/second if shut down (100%).
Yet... In the 'long run', this will actually be more punishing than a literal realtime tabletop heat system.

For a given scenario, lets assume you're in a Nova Omnimech aka Blackhawk if we're talking from an IS perspective.
Engine damage, 1 slot.
You're generating 1 additional heat per second of function. (tabletop 5 heat per turn).
This splits between Mech and Heatsink thresholds as 0.5 each per second.
As the Mech threshold fills, you'll start seeing mech penalties.
As the heatsink threshold fills, the cooling rate will decrease and gradually your coolant will reduce in efficiency and heatsinks will begin melting.
You're on your way to a gradual and dreadful demise.
Your own weapons could end up cooking you. Thankfully your ER MLs feature reduced power settings to help keep the heat down while providing a scary light show or you can chain fire the individual lasers. Either way works pretty well.
Movement isn't helping you. Not that the excess heat would reduce from inactivity, but the fact of the matter is the more you move the more heat you make.
Then comes another blow and either a second engine crit occurs via a lucky shot OR you lost the side torso.
You're now getting 2 heat per second (tabletop 10 heat per turn). You're a walking time bomb just waiting to go off.
Sure all this can happen in the first concept because matter-of-fact it does, however you're far more aware of it in this situation.

For the sake of it, pull out Megamek, set the following rules:
*ACs can double fire.
*Heatsink Taxing.
*Through Armor Criticals.
(Do not turn on Rolling Crits; MWO has that and if you combine that with through armor crits it is just too much to expect for a real time environment).
*Simultaineous Turn.
*Stackpole.
*Ammunition Jettison.
Now put in a bot or two and set them to be aggressive risk takers, use some mechs and enjoy.
And should you find yourself in that engine situation I described, take note of how you feel as you struggle to stay alive under those conditions. Imagine the story you can tell your friends when under this situation, and how this word of mouth of a great experience could influence them to play, which could influence yet more to play... Beats the bitter tales of MWO, doesn't it?
Also Clan or IS XL... they're both about the same in this situation and side torsos don't have to be destroyed to get into this predicament or to be destroyed.

Enjoy.

Edited by Koniving, 26 September 2016 - 11:35 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Koniving, on 26 September 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

Reserving this spot to answer when I can.

Short answer:
Two ways to do this.
Literal real-time TT, which I call Static Cooling Rate. (This is akin to Mechwarriors 1-4, except that 2 had 40 threshold, 4 had 60 threshold, 1 and 3 had 30 threshold though Pirate's Moon has 40 threshold).
That is Mech threshold 30, heatsink threshold (SEPARATE FROM MECH THRESHOLD that also fills at the same time!) = heatsink count x1 for std or x2 for double, and finally cooling rate is heatsink count /10 x1 for std or x2 for double.
Hit 30 Mech threshold, unconditional shutdown. Remain locked in shutdown until 14 heat (46.6666666667%).

Note: Per TechManual, override has absolutely nothing to do with shutdown. When a reactor is at 80% of the maximum heat, weapons are locked out as a safety feature, preventing any additional firings. While rarely done by Clan pilots, it is extremely common for Inner Sphere pilots to override this weapons lockout in order to continue firing anyway. There Is No Shutdown Override.

Heatsink threshold: used to determine coolant efficiency reductions and heatsink melting. Over heatsink threshold for 3 seconds, coolant efficiency reduction. Over for 5? Heatsink melt. Difference? Coolant can be replaced via coolant truck in battles of attrition (faction play). Melted heatsinks is permanent for battle duration.
Cooling rate is a steady and continuous rate.
Engine produces heat at 0 units for on, 1 unit for cruise, 2 units for running and 3 units for sprint.
Jumpjets produce 3 units of heat for initial jump of 12 meters up and 30 meters forward + 1 additional unit of heat per additional 6 meters height and additional 30 meters forward.
Conditions for thermal penalties; reach penalty level and maintain or exceed it for 3 seconds; suffer penalty until after 3 seconds of getting below it.

"Why a heatsink threshold at all?"
In this design, the heatsink threshold is there just to govern heatsink efficiency loss and melting, which in truth would only come up on alpha strikes or some serious DPS-oriented shenanigans like multiple UAC/20s.
Basically, as you build heat, both Mech Threshold (for movement, accuracy, etc. penalties) will fill and the heatsink threshold will fill alongside it at the same rate.
Exceed your heatsink threshold and stuff won't cool as well due to reduced cooling efficiency which is like losing a heatsink though in longer battles you can get it back with a Coolant Truck. Exceed it for 5 seconds and you melt a heatsink permanently.
It is possible to have a higher Heatsink threshold than Mech threshold, however with how fragile I would make heatsinks themselves this would really be of little comfort. Especially since Clan DHS are twice as easy to hit and damage than IS Standard, and IS DHS are three times as easy to hit as IS Standard.

Realistic Literal Tabletop based on Thermal Theory, which I call Dynamic Cooling Rate.
That is Mech threshold 30, heatsink threshold (separate from Mech Threshold but they split heat between them now) = heatsink count then x1 for std or x2 for double, Weapon Specific Thermal Threshold and finally cooling rate is heatsink count /10 x1 for std or x2 for double at maximum potential!
Hit 30 Mech threshold, unconditional shutdown. Remain locked in shutdown until 14 heat (46.6666666667%). Again no shutdown override.
Heatsink threshold: used to determine coolant efficiency reductions and heatsink melting as above. However, there's more to it described below.
Weapon Thermal Threshold: Each weapon has a thermal threshold of their given rating in which they would stop functioning for safety reasons
Cooling rate is a dynamic and changing rate. More described below.
Engine produces same heat as above.
Jumpjets produce same heat as above.

The difference for dynamic cooling rate is this:
When you produce heat, first the weapon cooling jacket starts to absorb heat; depending on the variant and health of the weapon this could be average, below average or exceed average. (Stage 1. Important only because weapons will stop functioning or take damage if they overheat.)
Heatpumps immediately will try to split that heat into the Heatsink Threshold and Mech Threshold. (Stage 2, within half a second of using weapons)
Both Heatsink and Mech Thresholds will drain into Heatsink Dissipation (aka cooling) gradually. (Stage 3, occurring as stage 2 does.)
As Heatsink Threshold fills, the rate at which it will remove heat from both Mech and Heatsink threshold is reduced proportionately.
In other words, if your heatsink threshold is 25% full, your heatsinks are dissipating at 75% of maximum speed.
Since Heatsink Threshold balances heat from the Mech Threshold, you are getting half the built up heat in a penalty tank (Mech threshold) and half in a 'storage tank' (Heatsink threshold). Abusing the 'storage tank' will of course have its repercussions but it won't feel as severe as the other more literal tabletop with direct penalties to your mech.
A Heatsink Threshold of 98% or greater will still trickle heat dissipation at a minimum of 0.1 heat/second so you'll never get thermally locked or a minimum of 0.5 heat/second if shut down (100%).
Yet... In the 'long run', this will actually be more punishing than a literal realtime tabletop heat system.

For a given scenario, lets assume you're in a Nova Omnimech aka Blackhawk if we're talking from an IS perspective.
Engine damage, 1 slot.
You're generating 1 additional heat per second of function. (tabletop 5 heat per turn).
This splits between Mech and Heatsink thresholds as 0.5 each per second.
As the Mech threshold fills, you'll start seeing mech penalties.
As the heatsink threshold fills, the cooling rate will decrease and gradually your coolant will reduce in efficiency and heatsinks will begin melting.
You're on your way to a gradual and dreadful demise.
Your own weapons could end up cooking you. Thankfully your ER MLs feature reduced power settings to help keep the heat down while providing a scary light show or you can chain fire the individual lasers. Either way works pretty well.
Movement isn't helping you. Not that the excess heat would reduce from inactivity, but the fact of the matter is the more you move the more heat you make.
Then comes another blow and either a second engine crit occurs via a lucky shot OR you lost the side torso.
You're now getting 2 heat per second (tabletop 10 heat per turn). You're a walking time bomb just waiting to go off.
Sure all this can happen in the first concept because matter-of-fact it does, however you're far more aware of it in this situation.

For the sake of it, pull out Megamek, set the following rules:
*ACs can double fire.
*Heatsink Taxing.
*Through Armor Criticals.
(Do not turn on Rolling Crits; MWO has that and if you combine that with through armor crits it is just too much to expect for a real time environment).
*Simultaineous Turn.
*Stackpole.
*Ammunition Jettison.
Now put in a bot or two and set them to be aggressive risk takers, use some mechs and enjoy.
And should you find yourself in that engine situation I described, take note of how you feel as you struggle to stay alive under those conditions. Imagine the story you can tell your friends when under this situation, and how this word of mouth of a great experience could influence them to play, which could influence yet more to play... Beats the bitter tales of MWO, doesn't it?
Also Clan or IS XL... they're both about the same in this situation and side torsos don't have to be destroyed to get into this predicament or to be destroyed.

Enjoy.

We're very much on the same page with versions of that, I think... you might want to check out my proposal for the mostly-direct ED to TT conversion. I've got it pared down to as close to TT as I can get within MWO's systems, heat penalties and all. The math works out great as a direct replacement for the current system.

http://mwomercs.com/...tt-heat-system/

[Sader325]

Penalties without explosions and damage. I like it.

[ScarecrowES]

Sader325, on 26 September 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

Penalties without explosions and damage. I like it.

That's the idea. We could still do damage mechanics, obviously, but nothing so random and arbitrary as those types in TT. Exceed too high a penalty cap above shut down - explode. Spend a lot of time accumulating heat penalties - cook the pilot.

No need to have random ammo explosions like TT. Point is more to make it harder to fight rather than cause you harm.