27 replies to this topic

[RighteousDude]

Please bear with me, I have a whole slew of ideas that all tie in together to achieve the goals that PGI and myself believe need to be attained. Firstly, energy draw should only apply to weapons on recycle, not when fired (e.g. my Clan ERLL drains 11 energy over the duration of its recycle, this would prompt a reduction in the rate of recharging energy. 11 energy over 4 seconds isn't enough to impact a 20/s recharge). I believe a reduction in heat capacity will attain a desirable result; preferably a heat capacity based on the size of your battlemech. These two points particularly would promote more diverse and versatile load-outs over boating a particular weapon type.

Secondly: Ballistic weapons: A: should have minuscule if any energy draw. Ballistic weaponry generates kinetic heat (*Gauss Rifles should as well, they are being propelled at Mach 7.4 currently in-game with no quirks or velocity adds, they're supposed to travel at mach 10.) Where the only draw on the reactor would be the electromagnetic loading mechanism. Gauss Rifles would have a special place as they would only cause energy draw while they recycle. (as they charge a series of super-capacitors that unleash massive amounts of electrical current through a string of electromagnets that propel the munition from the barrel.) And B: Ballistic Weaponry (aside from Gauss and LB) should have their ammunition generalized in much the same way as SRMS and LRMS. as well as their damage per round. This change to ballistics would increase kill time, heat generated, and enjoyment. A regular Autocannon 2 would have a low but sustainable ROF (Rate of Fire), where an AC/20 would have a much Higher ROF with lower sustainability. Ultra Auto-cannons would be quite different. UAC/2 through 20 would have the same ROF, higher than regular auto-cannons, but with (instead of just a chance to jam) an increasing chance to jam as fire is sustained., And instead with investing more weight and space in the larger gun for Higher ROF, you would receive exponentially decreased rate to jam chance. By generalizing the ammunition and damage of each round of auto-cannon ammunition you naturally increase time to kill. Allowing a generalization of damage at range, as well, would increase time to kill. the Noted effective range of weapons (SINCE BATTLETECH) has been an estimated effective range based on weapon behavioral characteristics. An AC/2 has a 700m effective range because it fires more slowly, allowing the targeting computer more time to compensate for recoil. an AC/20 has a ridiculous ROF, allowing no time for the T-com to compensate. yielding estimated effective range to be 270m, outside of that, the rounds just go EVERYWHERE. (this does not apply to energy weapons. their focal points are a real thing that causes reduced effectiveness over range.)

This brings me to what everyone should be saying, "that's just going to make SRMS OP!" Yes, I agree. My solution: As with Ballistics, missile systems should have little to no energy draw, and should only occur during recycle. To ****** the effectiveness of a 24 point SRM swarm would be to eliminate the swarm. By this, I intend : To fire a single SRM per keystroke. For example: I have 2 SRM6 on weapon group 2 (Mouse button 2) Chainfire is not enabled. Keystroke: 2 SRM fire generating (x) kinetic heat, Keystroke, 2 (4 total) SRM fire generating (x) kinetic heat, keystroke 2 (6 total) SRM fire generating (x) kinetic heat, SRM launchers empty, electromagnetic actuators begin reload (Recycle time) Consuming (x) energy of the reactor.

I would like to take a second to point out my biggest point that I want recognized through all this. I want this game to be more physically realistic. More aptly put, I would like this game to be based more on REALISTIC PHYSICS. A: Action, B: equal and opposite REACTION. If this were done thoughtfully, the game would balance itself.

Jump Jets. Firstly, most importantly, the lightest classification for a BattleMech is 20 tons, (any more light is battle armor) the light class is from 20 tons to 35 tons. A light class jump jet is a Class V, weighing .5 ton. If I put 1 Class V JJ into a 20 ton 'Mech, it can jump 10 (as an example) meters, If I put the same, single Class V JJ into a 35 ton 'Mech, it can jump 5 Meters. See, same size jumpjet for a class of 'Mech, takes you farther the lighter in that class you are. Point: Assault 'Mechs are classified at 80-100 tons. Assault 'Mechs use Class II JJ's, that weight 2 tons. I put 1 Class II JJ into an 80 ton 'mech and it jumps 10 meters. I put the same single Class II JJ into a 100 ton 'Mech and it jumps 5 meters... you see? there's a reason those JJ's weigh 1.5 tons more per jet. To balance this equation has already been done, the only assault class battlemech that can support more than 4 JJ's is the VTR-9K. What hasn't been done to balance them is they should A: Generate MORE heat, and B: while recharging consume (X) amount of energy per second. Jump jets are a feature used for MOBILITY on a battlmech not jumpsniping. Since their implementation they have hardly ever been used for their intent, and now with the nerfs to them, CANNOT be used for their intent.

Finally, I would like to point out that EVERYTHING your mech does should draw from energy. whether it be torso twisting, accelerating/decelerating, turning, running, jumping, falling, getting shot by high velocity ballistics. The higher your throttle is set, the more you turn, the more you stop/go, should all increase drain per second on your reactor. Does anyone else remember putting an XL 300 in a firemoth in MW2? I do, I overheated before I hit the top speed of 432 KPH. That was done correctly people.

Please view the fallowing Youtube.com link:


Shivaxi makes some very good points that support exactly what I'm talking about here. On that note, Get Rid Of Quirks, then make my changes. Always keep in mind : every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Edited by RighteousDude, 08 September 2016 - 08:02 PM.

[Kuaron]

[Tarl Cabot]

Edit your post and add another Enter (Return or Carriage Return for the older folks.. ) after each paragraph.. that post hurts the eyes...

[RighteousDude]

Tarl Cabot, on 08 September 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

Edit your post and add another Enter (Return or Carriage Return for the older folks.. ) after each paragraph.. that post hurts the eyes...

yea... owe. sorry, it looked far more pretty in wordpad.... also... it won't indent the paragraphs..... soo... more returns i suppose. still unedited .... doesn't help convey my intent well when it looks like that. oh well, some will notice thanks for the heads up mate.

Edited by RighteousDude, 08 September 2016 - 08:03 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Lot's of widely flung ideas up there. What I can tell you is that most if not all of those have been proposed, and most if not all are bad ideas. And that's no slight on you - many of those ideas actually seem reasonable at first glance but your assumptions about their results don't hold up under testing.

Heat capacity lowered? Only if you want to re-balance every mech and weapon in the game. You CAN institute the TT system, which breaks the heat bar back up into two bars. Has the effect of lowering heat cap without actually doing it due to the functionality of the system.

Heat cap by mech size? No. Unbalanced AF. 85-ton Warhawk Prime puts out 60 heat for 60 damage, 100-ton Kodiak-3 puts out 25 heat for 80 damage. One of those will be nerfed with a lower per-size heat cap, one will be buffed. I don't have to tell you which is which.

I could go on, but it's more of the same.

You get a gold star for effort, though.

[RighteousDude]

Thank you for your input ScarecrowES, this is exactly what I was looking for. I actually agree that they are wide topics. I believe that some of the topics bear better explanations; so I also believe that (while this is still a game) an AC/20 has the same ballistic velocity of a beebee gun in this game. I think where they really went wrong was to fallow a tabletop game rule set. So much so that it really takes away from the fact that they stated (in the very early days) that this was to be a more realistic feeling first person battlemech simulator, over just a FPS game. Shoot an I.S. AC/20 at a decal car in crimson strait sometime, from 270M, and tell me that the round isn't the same size as that car, that's 14' long, 5' tall, and 5' wide. AC/20 also has a velocity of 540 M/s? or did they bump it to 610 in a patch I missed. sorry, but I can't see bullets traveling that fast. and how are these that big? My point was there, and is again here (aside from earnestly appreciated criticism) that if you applied practical physics to everything in the game, it would balance itself. Silly I know, practicality in a sci-fy game. It is still based on at least theoretically possible feats of engineering. Yes, Fusion Reactors exist, OUR SUN is one, while we cannot as yet duplicate that process, we know it's possible. Or current Fission reactors boil a dense chemical (denser than water, can't remember what it's called) to spin a turbine that spins a 3 phase EMG (Electric Motor Generator) don't let them fool you, a generator can be a motor. Battlemech Powerplant is the same thing, with a FUSION reactor. Fused reactants generate nearly 40 fold the BTU (British Thermal Unit) per .01 to the tenth power of a gram of reactant with negligible degradation..... I could go on. there's so much there that could be so much better. Kuaron makes a good point, I'm talking to a brick wall mostly with these suggestions. But, I'm a real nerd, who believes that this REALLY nerdy game deserves something more than a CoD FPS'rs attention to detail and mechanics.

In the game I dream this to be, a new player would ask "Hey, how come Gauss Rifles don't have any spent casings" instead of what they do now: "How do I get out of 3rd person!?"

Because really, how do I fit 7, 4 meter long slugs ANYWHERE on a battlemech that is 24 meters tall? that's just the slugs that i can see going out at a ridiculously slow velocity to ... slightly jar a jenner? what? that huge slug should knock that jenner over! practicality, apply it, don't argue it, it works. trust me, I'm always Right (eousdude)

In ending, I suppose, forget energy draw entirely. I feel that everything that you do in the mech (everything the mech does) uses the reactor. The more you do and continue to do and the more quickly you do it causes the reactor to generate more heat and e.g. electricity, which generates more heat. Thus I believe that everything should generate heat. If you're in a light with 4 CSPL traveling top speed at 129 Km/h and you engage an enemy that overpowers you, you had better run away when you get to 40% heat, because if you start running away after that, you'll overheat before you get away. Twisting, turning, jetting, dodge duck dip dive and dodge away from the big scary atlas, puts as much, if not more strain on your generator as standing still and alpha striking all 4 of those sad little pulse lasers.

Edited by RighteousDude, 08 September 2016 - 09:00 PM.

[RighteousDude]

I'm stuck between a rock and a hard spot. There's a lot of stuff that makes sense to me, to explain it would be too long, and nobody would read it. To make it short enough to read leaves out too much explanation, and leaves it too open to interpretation, and criticism. I promise I'll spend 3 months typing out and editing a full deduction of action=reaction, if you promise to spend the hour it will take to read it, and the 4 years of education to understand it. In a nut shell, it's just high school level physics. Apply them here and it will balance itself. Because applied, it becomes obvious, there's some things you just don't do.

[davoodoo]

1) game wasnt balanced around shs, they still werent adjusted for weapon cooldowns.
2)i cant remember what mw3 mw2 and mw1 had but mw4 certainly had more than 30 heat, also tt could also fire more than 30 heat...
3)heat capacity is representation of tt rules, 10 dhs, i fire 40 heat, i have 20/30 in tt and 10 dhs add 20 capacity 40/50 in mwo.
4)tt have much higher alphas than mwo, i can make atlas with 70 dmg heat neutral alpha using nothing but 3025 tech, 14 mlas and 42 shs to cool them off.

Except that i agree

Edited by davoodoo, 09 September 2016 - 12:32 PM.

[RighteousDude]

This game should not be based upon, in any way shape or form, a table top dice rolling game. RNG's (Random Number Generators) are for table top, ridiculous figures as stated above are table top. I'm not rolling any dice while playing MWO, so why are there dice rolls? make it practical. basing a real time First Person Shooting game on a turn based strategy board game is not practical.

[davoodoo]

RighteousDude, on 09 September 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

This game should not be based upon, in any way shape or form, a table top dice rolling game.

You wot mate...

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I don't think we need to completely depart from lore (TT) values. They just need to take second seat when it's crucial for balance. I don't think all ACs sharing ammunition is necessary, and I'm not sure how it improves balance.

Also be careful with that realistic physics, last time one of the techs let that into the mech bay a Timber Wolf crumpled in on itself like a tin can.

[RighteousDude]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 11 September 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

I don't think we need to completely depart from lore (TT) values. They just need to take second seat when it's crucial for balance. I don't think all ACs sharing ammunition is necessary, and I'm not sure how it improves balance.

Also be careful with that realistic physics, last time one of the techs let that into the mech bay a Timber Wolf crumpled in on itself like a tin can.

Realistically, and practically, generalizing AC ammo would reduce alpha capacity by A LOT. Instead of my AC/20 dealing 20 flat out, it would take (for example) a full 5 seconds to deal that same damage. Increasing fire duration and face time reduces shock damage and increases time to kill naturally. With that in mind, wouldn't it be more fun to have an automatic cannon instead of a default burst fire (Clan AC's) or a ridiculous large bore artillery shell (I.S. AC's)? have a dakadakadakadakadakadakadakadakadakadaka, instead of a BOOM. I believe it would fulfill all the necessary requirements of the development team and the player base. On another note, no, this game needs to have its own values for heat/damage/speed/structure/armor etc. if it wants to succeed as a Real Time First Person Shooter/simulator. This is not a Tabletop game, and should have very little to do with one. The fact that it's mechwarrior I believe is the only relation it should have to TT. It already looks different, feels different, and for balance, is different, just DO IT DIFFERENT FFS. lol

P.S. we have a better idea of what is theoretically possible than anyone did in the 70's when BattleTech was born, continuing to adhere to a shortsighted view of what is possible is ignorant at best.

Edited by RighteousDude, 12 September 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

RighteousDude, on 12 September 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

Realistically, and practically, generalizing AC ammo would reduce alpha capacity by A LOT. Instead of my AC/20 dealing 20 flat out, it would take (for example) a full 5 seconds to deal that same damage. Increasing fire duration and face time reduces shock damage and increases time to kill naturally. With that in mind, wouldn't it be more fun to have an automatic cannon instead of a default burst fire (Clan AC's) or a ridiculous large bore artillery shell (I.S. AC's)? have a dakadakadakadakadakadakadakadakadakadaka, instead of a BOOM. I believe it would fulfill all the necessary requirements of the development team and the player base. On another note, no, this game needs to have its own values for heat/damage/speed/structure/armor etc. if it wants to succeed as a Real Time First Person Shooter/simulator. This is not a Tabletop game, and should have very little to do with one. The fact that it's mechwarrior I believe is the only relation it should have to TT. It already looks different, feels different, and for balance, is different, just DO IT DIFFERENT FFS. lol

P.S. we have a better idea of what is theoretically possible than anyone did in the 70's when BattleTech was born, continuing to adhere to a shortsighted view of what is possible is ignorant at best.

I feel as though MWO should stick about as closely to TT as Mech 4 did. That is to say, close enough to see the resemblance. I also quite enjoy ACs being more than just mech Assault Rifles, whole reason i used UAC/10s in the first place was to get some burst damage instead of sustain.

[RighteousDude]

jack. that's the point. burst damage broke the game. remove the ability to burst through other means than this silly energy draw system that leaves out so much. If they implemented energy draw as "Your reactor Generates energy and heat, therefore, everything that runs on the reactor consumes energy. When it consumes energy, your reactor generates more energy, and thus, more heat to offset usage. This being EVERYTHING THAT THE MECH DOES, not just the weapons it fires." As it stands, they have to do a lot of things to balance everything out, have a full action=reaction. One way is to make AC/s and UAC/s sustain fire like lasers, it would also allow them to make AC/s UAC/s generate heat rather than draw huge amounts from the reactor, which they don't draw from the reactor.... because they don't draw from the reactor... because they're ballistics, with firing pins and loading mechanisms... so they don't draw from the reactor...... because... how many times should I say it? Gauss, and very likewise LB autocannons draw from the reactor, because they use EM discharge instead of a slug and cartridge.... slugs don't draw from the reactor... cartridges don't draw from the reactor, AC's don't draw from the reactor. after that, the only thing to do to balance them is decrease their initial damage, make them sustain. Sorry to completely disregard your argument, but I would rather this game be realistically relevant. Kinda like when they made PPC's cancel ECM.... realistic, relevant, works. They need to have it cancel BAP and CAP as well though. mess with AMS targeting. etc. they have the fundamentals, lots still to go. .... again: ACTION=REACTION. BASIC PHYSICS! USE THEM!

gauss rifles should have an earth shatter bang when fired.... they have a (In game with no quirks) muzzle velocity of MACH 7.3. that's 2000 M/s .... supposed to be 5000 M/s... MACH 15... but still.. SUPER SONIC BOOM, not this sad little "spit" noise they make now.

[RighteousDude]

also.. pulse lasers don't go WUBWUBWUBWUB.... they look and sound exactly like regular lasers.... WITH A SHORTER ON TIME! THAT'S WHY IT'S A "PULSE" LASER. ....... ..... ...... ...... is why they generate more heat with the same cool down... they're supposed to do the same damage over a lot less time for more weight and heat. not slightly more damage over slightly less time and it goes bambambam like a ballistic ..... soooo dumb. so dumb it hurts.

see, the TT game is a representation of real life for a table top game and usage of dice rolling.... when you build a game to represent a representation ......... it's really dumb. just...... really, really dumb.

sorry, that's for a theoretically possible lifelike scenario...

Edited by RighteousDude, 15 September 2016 - 12:17 PM.

[davoodoo]

RighteousDude, on 15 September 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

also.. pulse lasers don't go WUBWUBWUBWUB.... they look and sound exactly like regular lasers.... WITH A SHORTER ON TIME! THAT'S WHY IT'S A "PULSE" LASER. ....... ..... ...... ...... is why they generate more heat with the same cool down... they're supposed to do the same damage over a lot less time for more weight and heat. not slightly more damage over slightly less time and it goes bambambam like a ballistic ..... soooo dumb. so dumb it hurts.

see, the TT game is a representation of real life for a table top game and usage of dice rolling.... when you build a game to represent a representation ......... it's really dumb. just...... really, really dumb.

sorry, that's for a theoretically possible lifelike scenario...

"While offering an overall increased rate of fire, the heat output also increases accordingly. Pulse lasers increase damage because they allow vaporized armor to dissipate from the location of damage. This allows subsequent pulses to reach the target area without being diffused by the vapor."

Edited by davoodoo, 15 September 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[RighteousDude]

you realize that a LASER is equalized wavelengths of light..... right? .... i mean...... RIGHT?

there is no way to tell without super cool measuring devices, a TIME TO TARGET when you're talking about LIGHT. and you know.... the SPEED OF LIGHT.

if you want to keep the wubwub... cool... but you realize it's completely impractical right? even in theory. if you increase amplitude to the binary reflecting screen, it's going to generate more heat. why would you make it flicker ? to generate more heat? the thing isn't going to do any damage if it's not ON THE SAME SPOT FOR THE DURATION! .... let me explain thermal dynamics for you: Heat travels from HOT TO COLD. you see, heat is caused by friction, friction is the motion of molecules that make up matter, so let's say this matter is ferro-fibrous battlemech armor. to inflict thermal damage to a carbon composite material takes time... when you BLINK A LASER AT IT IT DOES NOTHING .... except generate more heat in your laser. seriously.... that's dumb. see? action=reaction. which should also be implemented to the game, for all lasers, if you can't hold the beam on 1 spot, it doesn't deal damage. wave your hand over an open flame real fast sometime... then real slow... it only burns when you pass your hand over slowly. get it?

Edited by RighteousDude, 15 September 2016 - 12:34 PM.

[davoodoo]

No it makes sense, if you put enough heat to melt armor then this melted piece doesnt protect anymore if you further flash laser at this melted blob it wont do any dmg to armor until it gets out of the way.

Edited by davoodoo, 15 September 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[RighteousDude]

davoodoo, on 15 September 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

No it makes sense, if you put enough heat to melt armor then this melted piece doesnt protect anymore if you further flash laser at this melted blob it wont do any dmg to armor until it gets out of the way.

really... wave your hand over an open flame. and tell me how that works. if you wave it too fast, there's not enough time to transfer heat.


the point I'm trying to make, aside from: ACTION=REACTION, is that an "ALL LASERS" mech is ineffective, ignorant, and useless. not "The go to easy mode" mech. and in conjunction with ENERGY DRAW, should make such mechs exactly as they should be, while not penalizing people that run versatile, diverse loadouts. like me, an lrm, some srms, some lasers, and an AC or 2, maybe even some machine guns. so.... about machineguns... they're .50 caliber. ... not a beebee gun... ffs.... so useless. only real way to fit 2k rounds into 1 slot, which I can only assume is an area of between 10 cubic centimeters and 1 cubic meter ... because, a commando has the same slot space as an atlas for some reason.... OH, because a commando is 11 meters tall and an atlas is 14 meters..... lol.... not in this game... nope nope nope. 1/4 the weight means 1/4 the size in this game..... again... action=reaction.

Edited by RighteousDude, 15 September 2016 - 12:46 PM.

[davoodoo]

RighteousDude, on 15 September 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

really... wave your hand over an open flame. and tell me how that works.

How hot is that flame??

100 degrees?? ill be fine
1000 degrees?? actually im not sure
10000 degrees?? my skin will instantly turn to crisp and fall off.