14 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

as with the removal of Quirks(hope structure ones make it back in)
i think it may be a good time to test an idea i had on Crit/Tonnage Balance,

=0=PLEASE VOTE=0=

Andi Nagasia, on 14 September 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

ok with the all the IS to Clan Balance Talks about,
and it seems like Every Discussion leads into an Epeen Contest,

Let me Bring Something up that Many feel is or isnt important,
the Tonnage and Crit differences between IS and Clan Weapons,
Weapon Balance Aside, it seems like Tonnage/Crit are their own Discussion,


=Thoughts on Balance=
This Topic is to Discuss the Balance between Faction, Tonnage and Crits,
In doing, This Topic Assumes that all Weapons are balanced Stats wise,
(they may not be but thats for another Topic not this one)
-
But why Discuss IS to Clan, Tonnage and Crits?
Because many Good Topics on Clan Balancing have been shot down on it,
Valid ideas Cast aside, because Clan Weapons are Abit smaller and Weigh less,
This Topic Seeks to Discuss this and Find a Solution to Tonnage & Crit Balance,


=Current Weapons=
=Energy=
Small Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits,
Medium Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits,
-
IS Large Lasers take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan ERLL,
IS Large Pulse take up 1 more Ton vs Clan LPL,

=Ballistic=
IS AC2 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton But 1 Less Crit vs Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS AC5 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS AC10 +Ammo take up 2 more Tons and 2 more Crit vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS AC20 +Ammo take up 2 more Tons and 2 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
IS Gauss +Ammo take up 3 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan Gauss +Ammo,

=Missile=
IS LRM5 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM5 +Ammo,
IS LRM10 +Ammo take up 2.5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM10 +Ammo,
IS LRM15 +Ammo take up 3.5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM15 +Ammo,
IS LRM20 +Ammo take up 5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan LRM20 +Ammo,
-
IS SRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 more Ton vs Clan SRM2 +Ammo,
IS SRM4 +Ammo take up 1 more Ton vs Clan SRM4 +Ammo,
IS SRM6 +Ammo take up 1.5 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan SRM6 +Ammo,
-
IS SSRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 more Ton vs Clan SSRM2 +Ammo,



=0=My Solution=0=
Lasers are mostly Fine, but for Missiles and Ballistics,
give all IS Ammo Based Weapons 1Free Ton of Ammo
this Balances out the Problem almost Completely,

=NEW Weapons=
=Energy=(No Change)=
Small Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan,
Medium Lasers/Pulse take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan,
-
IS Large Lasers take up 1 more Ton and 1 more Crit vs Clan ERLL,
IS Large Pulse take up 1 more Ton vs Clan LPL,

=Ballistic=(IS +1FreeAmmo(1FreeTon&1FreeCrit)=
IS AC2 +Ammo take up same Tonnage But 2 Less Crits vs Clan UAC2 +Ammo,
IS AC5 +Ammo take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan UAC5 +Ammo,
IS AC10 +Ammo take up 1 more Tons and 1 more Crit vs Clan AC10 +Ammo,
IS AC20 +Ammo take up 1 more Tons and 1 more Crit vs Clan UAC20 +Ammo,
IS Gauss +Ammo take up 2 more Ton vs Clan Gauss +Ammo,

=Missile=(IS +1FreeAmmo(1FreeTon&1FreeCrit)=
IS LRM5 +Ammo take up same Tonnage and Crits as Clan5 +Ammo,
IS LRM10 +Ammo take up 1.5 more Ton vs Clan LRM10 +Ammo,
IS LRM15 +Ammo take up 2.5 more Ton vs Clan LRM15 +Ammo,
IS LRM20 +Ammo take up 4 more Ton vs Clan LRM20 +Ammo,
-
IS SRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 Less Ton and 1 Less Crit vs Clan SRM2 +Ammo,
IS SRM4 +Ammo take up 1 Less Crit vs Clan SRM4 +Ammo,
IS SRM6 +Ammo take up 0.5 more Ton vs Clan SRM6 +Ammo,
-
IS SSRM2 +Ammo take up 0.5 Less Ton and 1 Less Crit vs Clan SSRM2 +Ammo,

As you can See the Weapons Now Appear more Balanced,
some Larger Ballistics and Missiles are Still down but are Much Closer,
This Also Keeps with the Idea that IS & Clan are to be Asymmetrically Balanced,
Equal But Play abit different for Flavor and Fluff of the Faction,
-
this Change also give some Smaller IS weapons Advantage over Clan,
Such as AC2s and SRM2-4, this will also Encourage Lights to take these Weapons,
Which Could really help some IS Tonnage Starved Lights, (LCT, COM, ect),


=8=Please NOTE=8=
Im not Proposing the Changing of Tonnage or Crits for Any Weapon,
Im Proposing Every IS Ammo Weapon Gain a(1) Free Ton of Ammo Internally,
this is to bring IS Weapon Tonnage and Crits closer to Clan Weapons,
(think of a Pistol with 1Shot in the Chamber, same concept)


=0=Explanations=0=
=Game Reason=
For Balance Purposes of IS Ammo Based Weapons will have 1 Ton Ammo Built into the Weapon,
This is here to Negate the Advantage of Clan Weapons Weighing less and taking up less Crits,
-
=Lore Reason=
due to the Feed Type Systems of the IS, all IS Ammo Weapons have to be Pre-loaded with Ammo,
Clans due to their Technology have be able to Negate this with Advanced Feed Systems leading to Lighter Weapons,


+Special Note+
Tonnage/Crit of IS PPC/LL/LPL could also be balanced the same way,
by giving every IS PPC/LL/LPL by having 1 HS built into the Weapon,

=0=PLEASE VOTE=0=

Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[cazidin]

PGI won't change the tonnage or critical slots used.

[Andi Nagasia]

cazidin, on 18 September 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

PGI won't change the tonnage or critical slots used.

didnt read fully, or didnt understand fully, its my fault i apologize,
as i said above im not suggesting that the Crits / Tonnage of weapons be changed,
im suggesting that all IS Ammo Based Weapons (Ballistics/Missiles) come with 1Ton of ammo Preloaded,
think of it as a 9mm gun with 1 bullet in the Chamber,
-
as all ammo based weapons need at least 1 crit & ton of ammo,
this allows all IS ammo based weapons to save a cirt & ton, as you will have 1ammo in the weapon,
so this doesnt reduce the size or weight of the weapon, it instead gives you a bonus 1Ammo,
Edit-

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 18 September 2016 - 07:51 AM.

[Gentleman Reaper]

cazidin, on 18 September 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

PGI won't change the tonnage or critical slots used.

You didn't properly read his changes, he's proposing letting IS weapons come with free ammo, offsetting the weight and/or slot advantage Clan weapons have. I don't necessarily like the idea though, I think making Clan weapons feel different is the best way to balance them without making them seem inferior.

Edit: Ninja'd

Edited by Gentleman Reaper, 18 September 2016 - 07:54 AM.

[cazidin]

Andi Nagasia, on 18 September 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

didnt read fully, or didnt understand fully, its my fault i apologize,
as i said above im not suggesting that the Crits / Tonnage of weapons be changed,
im suggesting that all IS Ammo Based Weapons (Ballistics/Missiles) come with 1Ton of ammo Preloaded,
think of it as a 9mm gun with 1 bullet in the Chamber,
-
as all ammo based weapons need at least 1 crit & ton of ammo,
this allows all IS ammo based weapons to save a cirt & ton, as you will have 1ammo in the weapon,
so this doesnt reduce the size or weight of the weapon, it instead gives you a bonus 1Ammo,
Edit-

My apologies. I misunderstood your proposal.

Still, I would vote no. This isn't how I'd balance IS and Clan Ballistics or IS and Clan Missiles.

[Y E O N N E]

For SRMS:

I've thought for a long while now that IS SRMs are worth the weight premium because they are essentially as tightly grouped Clan SRMs with Artemis without having to actually buy an Artemis upgrade. They also do slightly more damage, and when you have 8+ tubes it does matter. I'm okay with this. What needs adjusting about SRMs is SRM2 cycle time, and that's not specific to faction.

For ballistics:
Again, mostly fine; PPFLD vs. burst is a powerful differentiator. If I were to change anything, I think more prudent would be increased velocity and decreased cool-down on IS weapons to offset the fact that IS ballistics aren't easily supplemented with synchronizing energy weapons the way Clan ballistics can be (i.e. AC/10 and IS ML is not anywhere near as good a combo as cERML and cUAC/10).

I don't think we need to be including a free ton of ammo. I do think all ballistic ammo should be bumped to 200 damage per ton, though. SRMs should get 120 rounds per ton.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 18 September 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Perhaps but even if the player doesnt use the Ammo they gain, thats Extra Tonnage,

its only 1 Ton, but i can tell you, with 1-2ACs(1-2Tons) or 3-4Missiles(3-4Tons), that can add up Quickly,
(3Tons separates a 250STD, from a 275STD)(3Tons separates a 325XL, from a 350XL)
(5Tons separates a 225STD, from a 225XL)(6Tons separates a 250STD, from a 250XL)
this could allow players to take a larger Engine or even an STD engine when they would use a XL other wise,

this could help smaller mechs have abit more Engine Freedom, allowing for more choices,
a CN9-AH could carry 3SRM4(3FreeTons of Ammo) +1AC20(1FreeTon of Ammo)+2Ammo, (230STD),
a CN9-AH could carry 3SRM6(3FreeTons of Ammo) +1AC20(1FreeTon of Ammo)+2Ammo, (270XL),
a LCT-3S could carry 2SRM2+2SRM4(4FreeTons of Ammo) +1SL(190XL),

[Requiemking]

Andi Nagasia, on 21 September 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Perhaps but even if the player doesnt use the Ammo they gain, thats Extra Tonnage,

its only 1 Ton, but i can tell you, with 1-2ACs(1-2Tons) or 3-4Missiles(3-4Tons), that can add up Quickly,
(3Tons separates a 250STD, from a 275STD)(3Tons separates a 325XL, from a 350XL)
(5Tons separates a 225STD, from a 225XL)(6Tons separates a 250STD, from a 250XL)
this could allow players to take a larger Engine or even an STD engine when they would use a XL other wise,

this could help smaller mechs have abit more Engine Freedom, allowing for more choices,
a CN9-AH could carry 3SRM4(3FreeTons of Ammo) +1AC20(1FreeTon of Ammo)+2Ammo, (230STD),
a CN9-AH could carry 3SRM6(3FreeTons of Ammo) +1AC20(1FreeTon of Ammo)+2Ammo, (270XL),
a LCT-3S could carry 2SRM2+2SRM4(4FreeTons of Ammo) +1SL(190XL),

As per usual, I have to say, this is a bad idea. The only weapons I could see getting free ammo, and only on certain mechs (ie Light mechs) are Class 2 ACs of all kinds.

[Wild Cat]

Skimmed through the post a few times now, but I'm kind of missing were this free ammo will be stored.

That free ton of ammo needs to be located in the mech and should be able to get hit and explode like all the other ammo does when it get hit

As much as adding 1 tonnage of extra ammo might appear to balance things out better, I'd rather see IS get's a percentage of additional ammo quirk to balance it instead, so we still have ammo that can be shot at, for I'm kind of missing this...

[PitchBlackYeti]

I think the main problem with the free ammo concept would be the question of ammo explosion, unless it was invulnerable? I think a better and simpler solution would be to give IS ammo 1,5x/ton multiplier (or 1,2x/1,3x whatever the balance overlords decide). Energy weapons can be balanced well enough with heat/cooldown/speed/duration.

And yes, a big thumbs up for removing weapon quirks altogether and restoring build variety. Structure/armor/ movement quirks will suffice.

Edited by PitchBlackYeti, 22 September 2016 - 03:21 AM.

[Koniving]

I have a very different suggestion.

Base weapon/equipment health on slots available.

All Clan items have the same or smaller Crits.
Fewer Crits makes them harder to Crit.
This one is practically a no brainier.

Difference between IS and Clan ER Large Laser?
IS is two slots. Clan is one slot.
So... twice as much health? 1.5x (50% in other words) more health.

If one slot equals 5 HP...
Then Clan ERlarge has 5 HP.
Clan large pulse, IS er large, IS large and IS large pulse all have same health (10).

Clan DHS, 10 health.
IS DHS, 15 health.

The list goes on.
This also means Clan ACs and LB-X benefit from more health over uacs.
That gets a bit high though so let's go with +50% per additional slot
So if health is 5 plus (additional slots * 2.5) for this example...
Then the IS PPC is 10 health (5+(2*2.5)) and Clan ER PPC is 7.5 health (5+(1*2.5)).
Then the IS AC/20 is (5+(11*2.5)) 32.5 and the Clan AC/20 / LBX 20 is (5+(8*2.5)) 25 health while Clan UAC/20 is (5+(7*2.5)) 22.5 health.
And finally IS/Clan medium, mpl, small, SPL, and Clan ER Large are all 5 health.
Problem here is Gauss rifles can mess stuff up.
Big stuff can get really wonky.
Simple fix... Cut 4 slots from health calculation.
Clan Gauss 5 +((5-4)*2.5)=7.5 health and IS Gauss 5+((6-4)*2.5) = 10 health. Extremely fragile for their size but not completely rendered useless either. If necessary can be adjusted to cut 5 slots from HP calculation, making Clan Gauss 5 hp and IS 7.5 hp.

Tonnage can also be used as a modifier.
if Clan and >10 tons -2 slot per ton. in HP calculation. IS, and > 12 tons, -1 slot per additional ton in HP calculation. Adjust as necessary. This would also stave off the power of the big guns, too, the 10s and 20s and the Clan advantage here.

Discuss?

I'm favoring the first slot base hp 5 +(additional slot count*50%first slot base hp) = health formula out of my two formulas, so...
For fun: HP on Clan XL versus IS XL:
5+(11*2.5) = 32.5 hp. 5+(13*2.5) = 37.5 hp.
Current universal engine health: 15. Hp.
Note: canonical value for engine disable is 3 slots, or 7.5 hp. One Clan ST = 5 engine hp auto-crit. One IS ST = 7.5 auto-crit. Regular Crits with engine damage doing something would mean the ability to destroy mechs by engine without having to blow torsos entirely.

Edited by Koniving, 22 September 2016 - 04:56 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Wild Cat, on 21 September 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

Skimmed through the post a few times now, but I'm kind of missing were this free ammo will be stored.

That free ton of ammo needs to be located in the mech and should be able to get hit and explode like all the other ammo does when it get hit

As much as adding 1 tonnage of extra ammo might appear to balance things out better, I'd rather see IS get's a percentage of additional ammo quirk to balance it instead, so we still have ammo that can be shot at, for I'm kind of missing this...

think of it as a Gun with 1in the Chamber,
or a Light Machine Gun with ammo in the Belt,

Andi Nagasia, on 14 September 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

=0=Explanations=0=
=Game Reason=
For Balance Purposes of IS Ammo Based Weapons will have 1 Ton Ammo Built into the Weapon,
This is here to Negate the Advantage of Clan Weapons Weighing less and taking up less Crits,
-
=Lore Reason=
due to the Feed Type Systems of the IS, all IS Ammo Weapons have to be Pre-loaded with Ammo,
Clans due to their Technology have be able to Negate this with Advanced Feed Systems leading to Lighter Weapons,

in this Case Clan have Advanced Feed Systems, that can Pull ammo From AmmoBoxes to weapons,
but IS mechs dont have these Feed Systems, so their ammo has to be Belt Feed into the Wepaons,
-
this can also Explain why IS weapons are Heavier and Clan Weapons are Lighter,
(this isnt the Lore Reason, this is a Lore Esk Reason that could work within Lore)

Source Mystic, on 21 September 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

SINCE WHEN DOES CLAN HAVE BETTER BALLISTICS ???

THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO HAVE BETTER LASERS

BUT I WOULD THINK I.S. WOULD HAVE THE ADVANTAGE ON BALLISTICS SINCE IT IS THE LOW TECH OPTION.

im Hoping with this Change, C-UACs will get some love, Reduced Jam Chance, or Jam time,
not saying that Clan haves better Ballistics, im saying i want this so Clan Ballistics can get a Buff,

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

(i.e. AC/10 and IS ML is not anywhere near as good a combo as cERML and cUAC/10).

I think that has something to do with how bad the IS ML looks compared to the cERML. I would love for higher velocities overall so more weapons can sync with things including lasers.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 22 September 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

I think that has something to do with how bad the IS ML looks compared to the cERML. I would love for higher velocities overall so more weapons can sync with things including lasers.

It's many things.

It's the fact that cERML and cUAC/10 have much more comparable optimum ranges than isML and isAC/10.

It's that I can fire the cUAC/10 twice in the time it takes the cERML and isML to burn, which is faster than an isAC/10 can fire.

It's that I can pay 15.5 tons to deal 41 damage at 445 meters with reasonable ammo supply while I must pay at least 20.5 tons to deal 40 points at a mere 297 meters without ditching the 10. I will also run way hotter.


While more velocity overall would be nice (though totally unrealistic and, ultimately, not strictly necessary since longer burns can achieve a similar re-synchronization), it would also exacerbate the disparity since my cUAC/10 effectively becomes a 20-damage laser within its power zone. There is nothing good that will come of that.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 22 September 2016 - 04:24 PM.