43 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

When attacking, do not Peekaboo, the defenders just need to sit pretty, and when you peekaboo, the lot of them don't even need an alpha to just core you.

Also, stop hiding, we are all going to die, the least we can do is damage, to get closer to our goal. When we push as one, at least with good lineup and builds, we are going to do heavy damage before we die.

*rant

[knight-of-ni]

but, but, but.... peekaboo'ing and then chatting "wut" when I get cored is how I'm supposed to play, right?

[Albino Boo]

Shoot the messenger and continue to try to hide the other team to death plz.

[nagdamnit]

OP doesn't understand peekaboo. When I peekaboo they cant see me. If they do see me and core me its because they have hax.

[DarklightCA]

I have no idea what the context behind this is but I assume you mean people trying to hide behind the gate when others are pushing through it? otherwise poking is a valid way to play the gamemode once inside the gate.

[Count Zero 74]

[Commander A9]

I used to crew Abrams Tanks way back when. Compare a tank to a mech, because the mechanics and concepts are very similar: mobile armored firepower with a rotating turret system.

When a tank fires from a fighting position, it drives up a short rise to expose its main gun barrel, fires on a target, then bounds back down to protect its entire hull. The tank commander or the gunner's auxiliary sight are the only "optics" exposed. This allows the crew to see targets without having to expose the entire tank.

When you peek around a corner, your intent should be to fire a few shots into an enemy and retract back before he can retaliate or damage you enough to cripple you. While you might not be able to hide in the dirt, you CAN get behind a building or large enough terrain feature.

However, in this case of MWO, you have to bound or move around the corner TOGETHER in order to be really effective.

If your enemy is entrenched, attacking him front-on-front isn't going to work, especially if he has height and cover. Better to flank and attack from the side or rear of course.

[Duatam]

A quick peekaboo can be a valid way to taunt your enemy while also dealing some damage. Of course you shouldn't do it if you know enemy has a firing line right behind the hill/corner and knows where you peek from, and never peek twice from same position.

Much bigger problem are those that stand or follow right behind the peekabooer and prevent him from backing off after the peek. Even though I peekaboo rarely, I've been in this situation many times. It's not a nice feeling when the enemy starts to return fire after peek and you realize you are not moving even though you are on full reverse throttle.

Edited by Duatam, 20 September 2016 - 05:07 PM.

[LordNothing]

my biggest rant is about all the time wasters on attack. there is a reason you bring the slowest mech first. to keep your mechs in lockstep. i hate seeing assaults on wave 2,3 and 4. because everyone just sits there waiting to form up while a king crab or mauler walks up to the murderball slowly at 40kph, meanwhile the enemy has had time to scout, they know where were coming from, and have had time to set up firing lines. also you have a finite amount of time in which to attack, so when you have 11 players waiting on that one guy who didnt listen in the lobby, and doing this every wave, you often find yourself running out of time before mechs and loosing. those unused mechs end up being wasted potential which could have turned the tables.

gate camping can die in a fire. its just a way to get killed and put your team at a disadvantage for the rest of the game. the part of your team that did not bring camping weapons just ends up sitting there waiting for you to die. they cant step in and help because they know their weapons wont do didly at that range and no point loosing armor to chip the enemy's paint. it might work in pug queue and it definitely works for the defenders, but for attackers its really just an idiot filter.

[MischiefSC]

Commander A9, on 19 September 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

I used to crew Abrams Tanks way back when. Compare a tank to a mech, because the mechanics and concepts are very similar: mobile armored firepower with a rotating turret system.

When a tank fires from a fighting position, it drives up a short rise to expose its main gun barrel, fires on a target, then bounds back down to protect its entire hull. The tank commander or the gunner's auxiliary sight are the only "optics" exposed. This allows the crew to see targets without having to expose the entire tank.

When you peek around a corner, your intent should be to fire a few shots into an enemy and retract back before he can retaliate or damage you enough to cripple you. While you might not be able to hide in the dirt, you CAN get behind a building or large enough terrain feature.

However, in this case of MWO, you have to bound or move around the corner TOGETHER in order to be really effective.

If your enemy is entrenched, attacking him front-on-front isn't going to work, especially if he has height and cover. Better to flank and attack from the side or rear of course.

Different maneuverability profiles and MWO and it's heat cap system put a premium on pushing over peeking. You want to get the first shot and sustain the push to overwhelm before you heat cap. The problem with poking is that it fails when pushed - flanked, overrun, pinched.

A poke build is rarely going to stand against a push build. A push build just has to have the balls to get into a push position. Between the two strategies the push is the more consistently successful and, as such, superior.

[DarklightCA]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

Different maneuverability profiles and MWO and it's heat cap system put a premium on pushing over peeking. You want to get the first shot and sustain the push to overwhelm before you heat cap. The problem with poking is that it fails when pushed - flanked, overrun, pinched.

A poke build is rarely going to stand against a push build. A push build just has to have the balls to get into a push position. Between the two strategies the push is the more consistently successful and, as such, superior.

Trading is a lot more effective and efficient than pushing.

[Commander A9]

It depends on the situation. You can trade and peek if incoming fire is not likely to force you back, especially if your enemy is being attacked from multiple directions. But if you trade too long, you might get shredded before the inevitable push arrives.

Whereas a good push can dislodge an enemy from an entrenched position, especially if you're fit to brawl. But charge into a firing line, and you're screwed.

A good drop team and drop commander will know how to analyze a situation to decide which is best.

[DarklightCA]

Trading is dealing damage while minimizing damage taken. Pushing is exposing yourself for the sake of pushing into another team. Pushing is only ideal if you are a brawler as that's your only trick or if you are doing so at a advantage like you catch their team out of position and you can push into a 12vs6 fight.

Trading gives you so many more options to dictate a fight. Pushing into a firing line that has been trading damage into you is not going to be ideal for the team pushing even if they do have brawlers, especially if they are maintaining their range.

Out trading a team forces that team into choosing one of two options. Push you or back off. Pushing into a firing line after taking damage/casualties is fairly suicidal. Them backing off gives you more room to position and aggressively maintain lines and line of sight to pick off targets that are now out of position with no cover. Pushing with fresh mechs into a firing line is still not going to be ideal.

Either way trading gives you a lot more options/benefit. Straight pushing may work great against unorganized pug teams that fold easy but against a organized team you are likely going to get smoked.

Edited by DarklightCA, 25 September 2016 - 06:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 25 September 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

Trading is a lot more effective and efficient than pushing.

Trading is only better if the other team doesn't push/can't push or your trade build is as good at brawling as it is at pushing - for example the AC5 Mauler or Poke Bear. Even Boreal however provides plenty of avenues for pushing in with cover.

Exceptional focus fire teams are going to dominate at poking because they're going to be focusing 4v1 by habit and crippling/killing mechs for even peeking a corner. Such a team however is going to win against any non-comparable team just about regardless of the strategies they take - if you're exceptional enough at poking that you are going to get enough kills/damage to offset being in a poke build vs a concerted push you would have dominated the push as well, or any solid strategy.

For all the complaints everyone has about 'chokepoint map design' every single map actually has a number of ways to advance to brawl range with only brief exposure. Almost every single map also allows a fast attack team to break the gate before the defenders are even to a good defensive position. Again, only real exception is Boreal if you consider sniper hill 'in position'.

With brawlers packing DPS of 20 or over (even on some mediums) sustainable for ~10 seconds or burst alphas of 60-80 pts the brawl meta tends to trump. Especially on maps like Emerald Taiga where gate to defensive line is ~450-550m you've got map design that plays really well to heavy dakka brawling decks.

Absolute a top tier team that likely plays comp and has coordinated focus fire down pat can rock face all day every day with a deck that's 2 or 3 poke builds and a brawler or light. I'd argue they'd do as well in a push deck, perhaps more consistently so because only a few maps (arguably really only Boreal) play to the poke meta.

[DarklightCA]

MischiefSC, on 25 September 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

Trading is only better if the other team doesn't push/can't push or your trade build is as good at brawling as it is at pushing - for example the AC5 Mauler or Poke Bear. Even Boreal however provides plenty of avenues for pushing in with cover.

Pushing is not a means of breaking a trade. A trading team is essentially a firing line that you would be pushing into. Even if you brought brawling decks, unless you could minimize the distance between you and the other team while taking little damage you aren't going to have a lot of luck effectively pushing that.

The only means where that's not the case is if you are pushing into a out of position team either by them allowing you to get into your max range while taking little damage or having a part of their team out of position to where you can push on a portion of their team rather than their full team. Also maps like Emerald do favor brawling but most maps favor mid range.

Edited by DarklightCA, 26 September 2016 - 12:11 AM.

[Red Shrike]

peekaboo'ing is most common tactic (and usually the winning tactic) in QP, so no surprise there that people try to win FW by applying the same tactic.

[sarcasm]
I mean, if it works in one place, it has to work everywhere, right?
[/sarcasm]

[DarklightCA]

Red Shrike, on 26 September 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

peekaboo'ing is most common tactic (and usually the winning tactic) in QP, so no surprise there that people try to win FW by applying the same tactic.

[sarcasm]
I mean, if it works in one place, it has to work everywhere, right?
[/sarcasm]

It's also a common tactic in competitive matches but I see your point.

[sarcasm]
Because the gamemode has a different name despite not changing anything about the gameplay does make it irrelevant.
[/sarcasm].

Edited by DarklightCA, 26 September 2016 - 12:40 AM.

[UberStuka]

You guys must not play against or with Dabs on Deck or Kottis77. Some of best IS pilots have a peekaboo play style in CW and wreck face.

[MischiefSC]

DarklightCA, on 26 September 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

Pushing is not a means of breaking a trade. A trading team is essentially a firing line that you would be pushing into. Even if you brought brawling decks, unless you could minimize the distance between you and the other team while taking little damage you aren't going to have a lot of luck effectively pushing that.

The only means where that's not the case is if you are pushing into a out of position team either by them allowing you to get into your max range while taking little damage or having a part of their team out of position to where you can push on a portion of their team rather than their full team. Also maps like Emerald do favor brawling but most maps favor mid range.

I absolutely get the effectiveness of poking and why it's the comp way to play and I'm not challenging your knowledge of how to best kill robbits in MW:O. I'm talking however about the map/mode design of FW. There's no map with more than 2 seconds of exposure for a push team to get almost entirely to objectives on attack, not even Boreal. Every map except Sulfurous an attack team gets to the gates *before* defense does. On some maps (Grim Portico, Hellbore) you don't have to get very close to the gate at all on defense to get your poke line set up but it leaves you in a poor position to defend gens if the other team objective rushes.

Light rush, split push, objective rush, FW has too many ways to deal with a poke setup for a good team. I get that amazing focus fire teams (like your own BW guys) aren't really going to miss shots and 2 seconds is plenty but it's only going to effectively give you 1 trade per mech and you're lucky to get good hits on 4 or 5 of them. The poke game was how CW phase 1 and part of 2 was played (after light zerg of objectives got nixed by better turrets and gen boxes) until various chassis nerfs and weapon balance made dakka and SRMs and brawling energy boats effective. Ski-ball entry on left gate on Boreal, hug the right edge going on left gate on Sulfurous, anything you want on Taiga, left gate down and around on Grim, south gate reach-around on Hellbore, up the middle on Vitric.

Obviously skill is always a critical factor but a good team knows how to push without peeking on every map in FW because they all favor it. Likely because the poke meta was so strong in early FW - there's a place on Boreal right around the corner from Alpha gate in the trench where the turret is most IS teams still call 'Attrition Ridge' because early on when Clans had no mechs with high mounts you'd get in there, dig in and be able to win trades against otherwise better armed Clan mechs who'd have to expose half their mech to shoot at you. Oh the glory days of 5-6 LL Stalkers. Attrition 4 up and push, camp dropzone, profit.

Anyone can beat pug teams. On Portico you can just wait for them all to get lost and wander out of bounds. Good team to good team though in FW right now (until ED puts it all back at the poke meta) the push wins most the time.

[UberStuka]

you cant deny the effectiveness of good players that can trade. it can swing a match. ex look at dabs- had he been just another random pug the match would have been a blow out.



same thing here with val



Now look at a games where teams like to push and you can see that the one mans above achived the same out come to a very close match as teams that push.

Edited by UberStuka, 26 September 2016 - 07:17 AM.