127 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

Reno Blade, on 27 September 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

The only beef I have is the relatively fast energy replenishment making it still easy to deliver a lot of damage in a short timeframe.

yea they need to probably make the refill rate like 0.5 or something.

[FupDup]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 September 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

yea they need to probably make the refill rate like 0.5 or something.

If they make the energy bar fill too slowly then it will end up basically being a second heat bar. Heat already has a high threshold and slow draining rate.

[BLOOD WOLF]

FupDup, on 27 September 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

If they make the energy bar fill too slowly then it will end up basically being a second heat bar. Heat already has a high threshold and slow draining rate.

That's why I said 0.5/s instead of 1/s. o.5 is still relativity fast. your heat would still be the factor, but you just want to avoid the penalty. If the keep it at 1/s then just increase the penalty to a 1:2 ratio or something like that

[Wintersdark]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 September 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

yea they need to probably make the refill rate like 0.5 or something.

Even at 0.5, you're looking to have ED cap damage over time. That's currently not it's purpose, that's what the heat system does.

In fact, damage over time limitation is the whole reason the base heat system exists. Thus, the base heat system is where you should look for that.

Once you start trying to have ED do that too, you're making the two systems redundant. Then you're better off stripping ED out, and just modifying the base heat system (which is probably the better idea in the first place, Gauss notwithstanding). Currently, ED only nerfs alpha/rapid burst damage, but doesn't impact DPS on any but the most extreme mechs (I'm looking at you, KDK3). This is by design.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Wintersdark, on 27 September 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Even at 0.5, you're looking to have ED cap damage over time. That's currently not it's purpose, that's what the heat system does.

In fact, damage over time limitation is the whole reason the base heat system exists. Thus, the base heat system is where you should look for that.

Once you start trying to have ED do that too, you're making the two systems redundant. Then you're better off stripping ED out, and just modifying the base heat system (which is probably the better idea in the first place, Gauss notwithstanding). Currently, ED only nerfs alpha/rapid burst damage, but doesn't impact DPS on any but the most extreme mechs (I'm looking at you, KDK3). This is by design.

I don't think that is what ED is looking to do. ED only deals with d/s(damage per second). ED does have an influence on DPS. Of course it's supposed to reign in on those meta builds, that was the whole purpose of the penalty system, which other MW games failed to do. Since alpha rapid burst damage is practically DPS i don't know how it doesn't impact DPS. Also it's just not true that ED only nerfs the rapid burst damage mech, becuase my Atlas is impacted as well and it is the opposite of what you described.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 27 September 2016 - 09:32 PM.

[Louro]

Ultimax, on 22 September 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

My dissatisfaction goes beyond that, and is about the unneeded nerfs to weapons systems, heat sinks & modules that quite frankly mostly appeals to low/mid skill players because they think it will narrow the performance gap between themselves and players better than them.


Which is simply untrue, and laughable. They will still lose, and still feel they die too easily - and they will find something else that is apparently overpowered and needs to be nerfed.

As one of those low/mid skill players, I would be happy if I don't get rekt by just one mistake. I play lights and mediums, and I feel the game is very unforgiving. One bad move and I usually get insta-killed. The damage numbers flying around are way too much for most mediums, which can't rely on "light speed" to be safe.

[Widowmaker1981]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 September 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

I don't think that is what ED is looking to do. ED only deals with d/s(damage per second). ED does have an influence on DPS. Of course it's supposed to reign in on those meta builds, that was the whole purpose of the penalty system, which other MW games failed to do. Since alpha rapid burst damage is practically DPS i don't know how it doesn't impact DPS. Also it's just not true that ED only nerfs the rapid burst damage mech, becuase my Atlas is impacted as well and it is the opposite of what you described.

So, you want ED to cap DPS as well as burst?

Would a 75 ton mech be able to reach that DPS cap, if it built for it? What about a 55 ton mech?

Assuming that a 75 ton mech would be able to reach the DPS cap, what possible purpose is there for a mech capable of carrying a greater weapons load than said 75 ton mech? Dire Wolf being the obvious example. If you try to claim that the extra armour and structure somehow make up for its turret like movement skills, you are going to be laughed at...

[Wintersdark]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 September 2016 - 09:30 PM, said:

I don't think that is what ED is looking to do. ED only deals with d/s(damage per second). ED does have an influence on DPS. Of course it's supposed to reign in on those meta builds, that was the whole purpose of the penalty system, which other MW games failed to do. Since alpha rapid burst damage is practically DPS i don't know how it doesn't impact DPS. Also it's just not true that ED only nerfs the rapid burst damage mech, becuase my Atlas is impacted as well and it is the opposite of what you described.

ED only caps rapid burst/alpha, and that includes your Atlas because ITS CAPPING ALPHA STRIKING. Good lord, sometimes I swear you speak a different English than everyone else. A SRM/AC20 Atlas loses zero dps to ED, but cannot output all its damage in single alpha strikes without penalty.

ED only caps overall DPS output at 20dps for ppfld. But it caps alpha damage at just 30 damage. 30 damage alphas are trivial, but exceeding 20dps is extremely hard for pretty much any mech except a very limited set of heavy assaults (again, such as the kdk3).

Thus, as it stands, EE has little impact on DPS, and a huge impact on alpha. This isn't "DPS mech" or "alpha mech", just raw output.

The reason people can't really top 20 DPS is simply because of...

Heat. That's what the heat system does. Kdk3 and it's friends sidestep that via massive tonnage allowing grouped low heat autocannons, but otherwise nobody is physically capable of getting those kinds of DPS numbers sustained because of heat. That's the role of the heat system.

Because our heat system is high cap low dissipation, it allows the DPS output to be co6ncentrated into alphas: if it's capping you at, say, 6dps, that 6DPS can be in a 60 damage alpha once every 10 seconds, or 6 points every second.

Hence why ED is here: it doesn't get involved with overall DPS output except at silly levels, but it forces you to spread your alpha damage over a couple seconds.

Thus, in the example above, you can still output 6dps, but the most you can front load it is in 30 point alphas twice every 10s. Overall damage output is the same, but alpha is curtailed, and 1.5s is enough to ensure the damage you do is absolutely spreadable.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 September 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[Louro]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 September 2016 - 04:01 AM, said:

So, you want ED to cap DPS as well as burst?

Would a 75 ton mech be able to reach that DPS cap, if it built for it? What about a 55 ton mech?

Assuming that a 75 ton mech would be able to reach the DPS cap, what possible purpose is there for a mech capable of carrying a greater weapons load than said 75 ton mech? Dire Wolf being the obvious example. If you try to claim that the extra armour and structure somehow make up for its turret like movement skills, you are going to be laughed at...

That one is easy: range versatility

[Widowmaker1981]

Louro, on 28 September 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

That one is easy: range versatility

That is incredibly naive. Range versatility is useless compared to improved ability to be where you want to be.

The actual result of capping DPS at a low enough level that 75 tonners can reach it would be the complete and total extinction of any mech heavier than that. No one (who actually has a clue how this game works) is going to slap a couple of LRMs on their Dire Wolf when their cannons reach the DPS cap, they are going to run a smaller mech that doesnt have the mobility issues, and will still have the same damage output in any given situation.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 28 September 2016 - 04:49 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Wintersdark, on 27 September 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Even at 0.5, you're looking to have ED cap damage over time. That's currently not it's purpose, that's what the heat system does.

In fact, damage over time limitation is the whole reason the base heat system exists. Thus, the base heat system is where you should look for that.

Once you start trying to have ED do that too, you're making the two systems redundant. Then you're better off stripping ED out, and just modifying the base heat system (which is probably the better idea in the first place, Gauss notwithstanding). Currently, ED only nerfs alpha/rapid burst damage, but doesn't impact DPS on any but the most extreme mechs (I'm looking at you, KDK3). This is by design.

Realistically, we shouldn't be looking at implementing a system or changes to existing systems that sacrifice overall balance and playability just for the sake of reigning in a few outliers.

The Gauss rifle is a problem across the board. PGI removed all the original risks for the weapon but kept all the rewards. Kanajashi argued up and down on Russ's twitter that ED was necessary specifically to deal with Gauss-related problems. You know what would do that better? Actually fixing the Gauss.

Same for mechs like the Kodiak-3. There's nothing OP about the mech itself. It's just a perfect storm of unintended buffs... the heat scale system itself, UAC mechanics and balancing, etc. Fix those things, and not only do you normalize the Kodiak, but every outlier of the same ilk.

One of the biggest reasons I hate ED so much, aside from the straight up broken mechanics, is that everything it is designed to do is better done by fixing the very core problem it's trying to band-aid.

[Pjwned]

Wintersdark, on 22 September 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Honestly, I'm kind of the other way around. I LIKE the weapon nerfs.

Ever since the Clan release, we've had continuous power creep. This un-creeps it a lot, and imho thats a good thing. I get people don't like nerfs, but it's something pretty necessary to get **** back where it's supposed to be.

The problem is that PGI is handling it incorrectly, in their usual incompetent & lazy fashion of more stupid band-aid fixes instead of actually trying to understand what doesn't work and why and then fixing it properly, or in the event that they're incapable of doing that themselves (which they obviously are) then they could try listening to more people instead of making a continuous stream of nonsense changes.

Quirks are still a huge power creep problem, the mech skill tree is still a power creep problem, and weapon modules are still a power creep problem. It's possible that PGI's skill tree "rework" might address the power creep from both the skill tree and weapon modules in a satisfactory way, but my expectations for that are just as low as they were for energy draw, and quirks show no sign of being worked on properly within the next decade.

If the issue is power creep then there are 3 major sources of power creep that still need to be addressed, and guess what all this energy draw and other absolute nonsense changes on the PTS does JACK **** to address any of these 3 issues.

Edited by Pjwned, 28 September 2016 - 05:27 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Wintersdark, on 28 September 2016 - 04:23 AM, said:

ED only caps rapid burst/alpha, and that includes your Atlas because ITS CAPPING ALPHA STRIKING. Good lord, sometimes I swear you speak a different English than everyone else. A SRM/AC20 Atlas loses zero dps to ED, but cannot output all its damage in single alpha strikes without penalty.

ED only caps overall DPS output at 20dps for ppfld. But it caps alpha damage at just 30 damage. 30 damage alphas are trivial, but exceeding 20dps is extremely hard for pretty much any mech except a very limited set of heavy assaults (again, such as the kdk3).

Thus, as it stands, EE has little impact on DPS, and a huge impact on alpha. This isn't "DPS mech" or "alpha mech", just raw output.

The reason people can't really top 20 DPS is simply because of...

Heat. That's what the heat system does. Kdk3 and it's friends sidestep that via massive tonnage allowing grouped low heat autocannons, but otherwise nobody is physically capable of getting those kinds of DPS numbers sustained because of heat. That's the role of the heat system.

Because our heat system is high cap low dissipation, it allows the DPS output to be co6ncentrated into alphas: if it's capping you at, say, 6dps, that 6DPS can be in a 60 damage alpha once every 10 seconds, or 6 points every second.

Hence why ED is here: it doesn't get involved with overall DPS output except at silly levels, but it forces you to spread your alpha damage over a couple seconds.

Thus, in the example above, you can still output 6dps, but the most you can front load it is in 30 point alphas twice every 10s. Overall damage output is the same, but alpha is curtailed, and 1.5s is enough to ensure the damage you do is absolutely spreadable.

I just don't agree with how your putting things. Plus this is conjecture on a forum, so I am skeptical of your claims. Prove it in a video, not a forum post.

how is somebody reading your post supposed to confirm what you are saying? So it's not that I am speaking a different language and thanks for the insult. I am not buying what your saying simply on a theoretical post. Nobody should. We need visual proof of confirmed and repeated scenarios. I am not disputing your math, I am disputing your conclusion.

I probably also dispute you math as well. Since I know that the game is not static. If it where then maybe you would have a case.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 28 September 2016 - 06:28 AM.

[Ultimax]

Louro, on 28 September 2016 - 01:27 AM, said:

As one of those low/mid skill players, I would be happy if I don't get rekt by just one mistake. I play lights and mediums, and I feel the game is very unforgiving. One bad move and I usually get insta-killed. The damage numbers flying around are way too much for most mediums, which can't rely on "light speed" to be safe.

While I am fine with the current game, I have been supportive of Energy Draw on the PTS - the system that was meant to cut down the size of ALL ALPHAS. The limit was set at a very restrictive 30 points of damage.

This is the system that was supposed to improve everyone's lifespan in game.



What I am against are:

• All of the added Weapon Nerfs
  
• All of the Heat sink nerfs
  
• All of the potential quirk nerfs that may happen (or may not, but I'm guessing many will be cut down)

What you don't understand is that all of the mechs YOU need to kill are also going to be harder to kill for you with your now limited firepower.

There will no longer be "lucky shots" or catching a good player off guard.

Good players will seem amazing to you, great players will seem like unkillable gods of war.


Surviving longer is also a skill, you need to get better at it. Many of us were in your shoes at one point, we got better.


We can not simply NERF EVERYTHING because there is a contingent of players who simply don't want to get better at the game, I'm not saying you are one of them but if you look around there are many players here for YEARS who still have not moved past Tier 3 in a game with one of the most lax and weak player ranking systems you will come across.




Lastly, what many players do not see are the ramifications of these weapon nerfs. This is normal, but for players that do see it, it's infuriating.


You only see how it affects one aspect of your gaming, you don't see the other aspects of how it will actually make your play more difficult (killing other mechs, a necessary component of winning).

On top of that, some of these weapon changes are reacting to gameplay elements that haven't been dominant for over nine months.


These nerfs are going to throw the current balance we have out the window, it creates new winners and losers - and I promise you within ONE OR TWO MONTHS there will be threads calling for nerfs for whatever new build takes shape and is "the most powerful" among all of the newly nerfed builds.


Because if there is one constant in this type of gaming, it is that there are players who will ALWAYS blame something other than themselves for their poor performance and perceived unfairness.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 September 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

I like how they dropped the weapons back to their reg values. I don't see how making the weapons their true values are a bad thing.

as a matter of fact the base heat on the IS ER large laser is 11 but on the PTS its 8, but the med has 4 instead of 3

The AC/20 has 1 less heat than the original values. In order to balance they need to find a balance which means increasing or nerfing.

you have an auto-negative reaction to nerfing, but buffing can also create bad situations.

Your long drawn conclusions are also probably not accurate. I am surprised you haven't learned from the countless of other threads that have attempted to make predictions, which most don't hit anywhere near to being accurate.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 28 September 2016 - 06:55 AM.

[FupDup]

BLOOD WOLF, on 28 September 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

I like how they dropped the weapons back to their reg values. I don't see how making the weapons their true values are a bad thing.

as a matter of fact the base heat on the IS ER large laser is 11 but on the PTS its 8, but the med has 4 instead of 3

The AC/20 has 1 less heat than the original values. In order to balance they need to find a balance which means increasing or nerfing.

you have an auto-negative reaction to nerfing, but buffing can also create bad situations.

Your long drawn conclusions are also probably not accurate. I am surprised you haven't learned from the countless of other threads that have attempted to make predictions, which most don't hit anywhere near to being accurate.

The issue is that a lot of the original TT values were poop. For example, the IS ERLL would be useless at its TT value of 12 heat.

I would like the IS ML to come down to 3 heat though. (Also IS SL down to just 1).

[Wintersdark]

BLOOD WOLF, on 28 September 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

I just don't agree with how your putting things. Plus this is conjecture on a forum, so I am skeptical of your claims. Prove it in a video, not a forum post.

how is somebody reading your post supposed to confirm what you are saying? So it's not that I am speaking a different language and thanks for the insult. I am not buying what your saying simply on a theoretical post. Nobody should. We need visual proof of confirmed and repeated scenarios. I am not disputing your math, I am disputing your conclusion.

I probably also dispute you math as well. Since I know that the game is not static. If it where then maybe you would have a case.

Huh? Which conclusion? That ED doesn't effectively cap dps? I'm not going to make a video to show that because it's very, very simple. A couple problem mechs aside, no mechs can hit the dps cap ED presents (as to top that you'd have to be firing over 20dps).

That's pretty straight forward, there's no room for interpretation there.

Likewise, ED puts firm caps on alpha damage and burst inside a 1.5s window.

So, a very reasonable conclusion is that the purpose of ED is to limit alpha, not dps over time. This is supported by Russ repeatedly saying (about ED and indeed even Ghost Heat) that they want to limit alphas to 30ish points. And indeed, saying the purpose of ED (and GH) is SPECIFICALLY to limit alphas.

They reduced overall damage output as well by nerfing every weapons cooldown by 15% as well, of course, but that isn't ED.

So, what do you dispute? What would you have me prove in a video, where I willing to waste that time? Or is it that you feel the role of the base heat system is not in fact to reduce overall DPS output over time? If not, what purpose does it serve?

Pjwned, on 28 September 2016 - 05:26 AM, said:

The problem is that PGI is handling it incorrectly, in their usual incompetent & lazy fashion of more stupid band-aid fixes instead of actually trying to understand what doesn't work and why and then fixing it properly, or in the event that they're incapable of doing that themselves (which they obviously are) then they could try listening to more people instead of making a continuous stream of nonsense changes.

Quirks are still a huge power creep problem, the mech skill tree is still a power creep problem, and weapon modules are still a power creep problem. It's possible that PGI's skill tree "rework" might address the power creep from both the skill tree and weapon modules in a satisfactory way, but my expectations for that are just as low as they were for energy draw, and quirks show no sign of being worked on properly within the next decade.

If the issue is power creep then there are 3 major sources of power creep that still need to be addressed, and guess what all this energy draw and other absolute nonsense changes on the PTS does JACK **** to address any of these 3 issues.

I agree with most of this and would like to point out I've NOT said I agree with all the PTS changes. Indeed, many are garbage.

This isn't a binary discussion.

ScarecrowES, on 28 September 2016 - 05:15 AM, said:

Realistically, we shouldn't be looking at implementing a system or changes to existing systems that sacrifice overall balance and playability just for the sake of reigning in a few outliers.

The Gauss rifle is a problem across the board. PGI removed all the original risks for the weapon but kept all the rewards. Kanajashi argued up and down on Russ's twitter that ED was necessary specifically to deal with Gauss-related problems. You know what would do that better? Actually fixing the Gauss.

Same for mechs like the Kodiak-3. There's nothing OP about the mech itself. It's just a perfect storm of unintended buffs... the heat scale system itself, UAC mechanics and balancing, etc. Fix those things, and not only do you normalize the Kodiak, but every outlier of the same ilk.

One of the biggest reasons I hate ED so much, aside from the straight up broken mechanics, is that everything it is designed to do is better done by fixing the very core problem it's trying to band-aid.

Yup, but that's not what's happening, and I'm too tired to argue that sort of thing anymore.

[Ultimax]

BLOOD WOLF, on 28 September 2016 - 06:53 AM, said:

I like how they dropped the weapons back to their reg values. I don't see how making the weapons their true values are a bad thing.

as a matter of fact the base heat on the IS ER large laser is 11 but on the PTS its 8, but the med has 4 instead of 3

The AC/20 has 1 less heat than the original values. In order to balance they need to find a balance which means increasing or nerfing.

1) Not all of those TT values are good values, there is no such thing as a "true" value.

2) TT Lasers deal their damage instantly, there is no "burn time".

3) The Weapon Cooldowns we have are also a thing of MWO, not TT. So CD buffs/nerfs are about balance here in a real time FPS environment, not a table top dice rolling environment.


If you told me these values were going live, but all of the lasers would now have a burn time of 0.1s to reflect their TT stats better, we'd probably be having a very different conversation.

Edited by Ultimax, 28 September 2016 - 11:11 AM.

[Alteran]

How many times do we address the same things over and over again in this ED forum?

The whole purpose why ED even came into being, was to address issues that a portion of the MWO population, believe to be a real concern. From what I can tell, the four issues are:

Alpha Strikes - The 'Instagibble' - Mech Configurations - Life Expectancy

Alpha Strikes - ED does not limit or prevent an Alpha Strike. You can boat up your Mech and Alpha with it, but you may red-line, shut down or self-destruct. IMO ED then fails in this. 'IF' ED prevented the Alpha Strike from firing, then and only then would ED actually address this 'problem'.

The 'Instagibble' - This is one is pure conjecture from anyone's POV. As such I'll put this in the ED fails to address it.

Mech Configurations - A portion of the posters in the ED forum continually post about how ED 'should' promote and support a mixture of weapon load-outs. ED really doesn't do this, so again, ED fails in this.

Life Expectancy - I don't know what game the people here think we are trying to play, but we are in a Death Match brawl that has a 15 minute timer. Limiting a single DPS strike to 30ish pts doesn't increase the life expectancy of any player in an MWO match. As such ED fails in this as well.

The weapon nerfs that have followed ED on the PTS is PGI band-aiding the situation as ED doesn't do a bloody thing that people here were calling for.

I truly have been head scratching for over a month about what people had hoped and expected ED to do. MWO is a DM, small area map, designed to have players in and out of a match in less than 15 minutes, but in reality in less than 10 minutes.

That is the actual problem and why we have what we have for a game.

IF MWO was designed to have a dynamic planetary map generation and extended game time of more than a few hours, then the weapon systems and ammo limitations would make sense. People would sparingly use ammo, people would be worried about how they peek and poke and heat build up over time with heat sink replenishment would be things to all consider. Yes, in the novels, heat sinks and their fluids only lasted so long in heat dissipation before they needed to be flushed with fresh fluids. Mobile repair vehicles and forward operating bases would then be something MWO could develop.

But that's not this game. Even FP is designed on the QP platform.

This is a game that has players dumping as much damage as they can, in as little time as they can, and then queued up for the next game.

ED doesn't do anything to address the issues that it was originally developed for.

[Alteran]

Oh yeah, since ED doesn't touch my DW with 6 CUAC2's, it's all good...

Until the ED or Gen forum is plastered with how OP 6 CUAC2's are, and how the Direwolf needs to be nerfed so that it can't boat them....