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Why I'm Unhappy With The Current Pts Direction


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#81 Drunk Canuck

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 04:22 PM

View PostFupDup, on 27 September 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

Most of the weapon nerfs target laser boats specifically. The large class in particular has been hammered into the ground, with only the Clan ER surviving and maybe IS ER LL surviving.

The PTS nerfs also make the AC/5 have lower DPS than the AC/2...


Except for ya know, increasing the jam chance of UAC's, when they shouldn't even have them in the first place since that is a TT mechanic and has no place in MWO since there is no fricking dice roll. Want to make vanilla AC's viable against UAC's by removing the jam chance? Make them have a shorter cool down, while the double tap makes for better burst fire at the cost of a longer cool down.

But don't forget the Gauss having it's health nerfed into oblivion, which if it goes live, will put it at the bottom tier of weapons due to it's absurd risk of exploding compared to it's health now, which is already pretty frail.

Edited by Drunk Canuck, 28 September 2016 - 04:23 PM.


#82 Pjwned

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 04:33 PM

View PostDrunk Canuck, on 28 September 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Except for ya know, increasing the jam chance of UAC's, when they shouldn't even have them in the first place since that is a TT mechanic and has no place in MWO since there is no fricking dice roll. Want to make vanilla AC's viable against UAC's by removing the jam chance? Make them have a shorter cool down, while the double tap makes for better burst fire at the cost of a longer cool down.


Without a jam chance you would see UACs automatically doing far superior DPS at all times on top of the higher burst damage they already have, unless you halved the cooldown on ACs or doubled the cooldown on UACs.

Is that balanced when UACs are only 1 ton heavier and 1 slot bigger? No, so your idea makes no sense.

#83 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 05:17 PM

View PostPjwned, on 28 September 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

Without a jam chance you would see UACs automatically doing far superior DPS at all times on top of the higher burst damage they already have, unless you halved the cooldown on ACs or doubled the cooldown on UACs.

Or you could just remove the double tap feature all together and just make UACs burst fire ACs with a slightly higher damage potential. They don't have to do double damage.

#84 Ultimax

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 05:21 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Or you could just remove the double tap feature all together and just make UACs burst fire ACs with a slightly higher damage potential. They don't have to do double damage.


I had thought of that too.

15% higher tonnage, 25% higher crit slots - split the difference and give it higher CD for 20% higher DPS.

I mean, yeah its balanced but its also boring.

#85 Pjwned

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 06:20 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Or you could just remove the double tap feature all together and just make UACs burst fire ACs with a slightly higher damage potential. They don't have to do double damage.


That doesn't really make them ultra autocannons anymore though at that point.

I don't even see the problem with UACs as they are now, people just ***** too much about the jam mechanic even though it's essentially fine as it is.

#86 ScarecrowES

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 06:53 PM

Realistically, UACs are as good as they are because their inherent balancing risk from TT has been effectively neutered for MWO.

TT gave you a weapon that weighed only a little bit more than a regular autocannon, and took up only one more crit slot, but let you do double damage on command. To balance this, the weapon could jam, and once it was jammed it was out of commission for the rest of the game. Every double tap brought a chance that the weapon would be completely knocked out. Optional rules let you unjam the weapon, but if I remember correctly that was a minumum 3 turns jammed... so 30 seconds or so.

Even these new 8-second jams are nothing compared to TT. So in MWO, we're given a weapon that does double damage for a tiny extra cost, with very low chance to jam, and a very quick recovery if we do. Hence UACs are ridiculously OP in MWO compared to how they SHOULD be. I'm not saying we need to have the perma-jam mechanic, but losing enough time to jams to have output consistant to a slightly better standard AC should be our standard to work to. That means, in all likelihood, a jam should cost us around 3-4 full weapon cycles.

Gauss explosion mechanic? Please. These things rarely explode in MWO as it is. Nothing remotely like strapping one to your mech in TT. This is another risk mechanic that MWO all but removes from the game while keeping the reward of low heat and super range intact. The gauss has always been as good as it is for this reason... all of the reward, none of the risk. We have a lot of choices on how to deal with that... starting by adding a little heat to the weapon (keeping health and explosion chance otherwise the same from Live) balances out the reward a bit directly, and helps mitigate the gauss/ppc meta. Or you can go nuts on the explosion chance and make players think twice about carrying a gauss anywhere other players can shoot back.

#87 FupDup

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:03 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 28 September 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Gauss explosion mechanic? Please. These things rarely explode in MWO as it is. Nothing remotely like strapping one to your mech in TT. This is another risk mechanic that MWO all but removes from the game while keeping the reward of low heat and super range intact. The gauss has always been as good as it is for this reason... all of the reward, none of the risk. We have a lot of choices on how to deal with that... starting by adding a little heat to the weapon (keeping health and explosion chance otherwise the same from Live) balances out the reward a bit directly, and helps mitigate the gauss/ppc meta. Or you can go nuts on the explosion chance and make players think twice about carrying a gauss anywhere other players can shoot back.

The Gauss is already at 90% chance to explode. While I wouldn't mind 100% for the sake of consistency, it's silly to claim that they "rarely" explode.

#88 ScarecrowES

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:13 PM

View PostFupDup, on 28 September 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

The Gauss is already at 90% chance to explode. While I wouldn't mind 100% for the sake of consistency, it's silly to claim that they "rarely" explode.


I did add the qualifier "compared to TT." I know when I mount gauss in MWO, they account for maybe 1 out of 20+ deaths. I know it's so rare I'm still surprised to see it come up on my death screen. Quite a difference from TT where there's a good chance that if you mounted a gauss, it was going to kill you - unless you were very smart with the positioning of the weapon and your use of CASE. Oh, and that's another thing that was downright lethal in TT that's pitiful in MWO - ammo explosions.

Now... if gauss was guaranteed to explode if the component it was mounted in was taken out, not just on a crit... that might be something. They'd be exploding a LOT more, eh? ;)

#89 Ultimax

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:15 PM

View PostScarecrowES, on 28 September 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

To balance this, the weapon could jam, and once it was jammed it was out of commission for the rest of the game.


No one in this game would use it.

I think there is a massive disconnect in these kinds of thoughts, a single UAC 5 against a stock mech with stock armor could be devastating.

A single UAC 5 against mechs with maximum double armor and increased structure is completely ignorable.


Now imagine it could jam and no longer function? Why would anyone use that?

Why would you ever take a risk that 2 of them for 18 tons + 5 tons of ammo could suddenly no longer work?


You wouldn't, if you had any sense at all.




View PostScarecrowES, on 28 September 2016 - 06:53 PM, said:

Gauss explosion mechanic? Please. These things rarely explode in MWO as it is.



This is literally nonsense, they explode very frequently.

#90 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 08:26 PM

View PostPjwned, on 28 September 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

That doesn't really make them ultra autocannons anymore though at that point.

Who cares?

They would fulfill a unique role (which they fulfill currently) and don't have a stupid RNG mechanic to keep their DPS in line. Even then the idea of a "jam bar" that some have suggested makes more sense on RACs should we ever get them.

View PostPjwned, on 28 September 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

I don't even see the problem with UACs as they are now, people just ***** too much about the jam mechanic even though it's essentially fine as it is.

No it's not, it's only fine if you boat them to overcome jamming, that's problematic. An RNG mechanic that can easily swing so far in both bad and good ways is a bad mechanic.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 September 2016 - 08:29 PM.


#91 Deathlike

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 12:17 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

No it's not, it's only fine if you boat them to overcome jamming, that's problematic. An RNG mechanic that can easily swing so far in both bad and good ways is a bad mechanic.


It's another term for "risk-reward", where if the risk outweighs the reward.. it's not worth taking.

Unlike relying on DiceJesus, a weapon that has any sort of chance to jam permanently would simply be relegated to Command Console status (complete waste of space) for an online multiplayer game.

Name a game that has such a mechanic that works the same way... w/o the reward being crazy. Getting Clan UAC2s to have ANY chance to jam (even 1%) would make it worthless (if it wasn't already mechanically worthless AS IS).

Edited by Deathlike, 29 September 2016 - 12:18 AM.


#92 Pjwned

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 01:29 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

Who cares?


I care a little bit, I like them the way they are but I wouldn't throw a shitfit if they had to be changed; I just don't agree with changing them like that.

Quote

They would fulfill a unique role (which they fulfill currently) and don't have a stupid RNG mechanic to keep their DPS in line. Even then the idea of a "jam bar" that some have suggested makes more sense on RACs should we ever get them.


It would also be a really boring method of "balancing" them.

The RNG mechanic isn't even as bad as whiners like to make everybody else think, because a huge amount of them figure if they mount any UACs at all then that means they have to be constantly double tapped at all times, even though being a little more conservative with the double taps would mean dealing with the RNG less and more importantly not risking a jam in a bad situation.

I've seen so many people just spam the double tap whenever possible, so when I read people bitching about the RNG jam mechanic I don't really have much sympathy.

Quote

No it's not, it's only fine if you boat them to overcome jamming, that's problematic. An RNG mechanic that can easily swing so far in both bad and good ways is a bad mechanic.


That has more to do with the fact that you almost always don't want to bring only 1 AC5 (or 1 AC2 for that matter) because it doesn't really do enough DPS or burst damage to make it worth only bringing 1; you're better off bringing an AC10 in every good example I can think of.

Not that boating has nothing to do with overcoming the jams but it also has to do with the base autocannon stats too.

#93 Wintersdark

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 04:15 AM

View PostPjwned, on 28 September 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:


That doesn't really make them ultra autocannons anymore though at that point.

I don't even see the problem with UACs as they are now, people just ***** too much about the jam mechanic even though it's essentially fine as it is.
Im fine either way, really. The jam mechanic is fine, as that's a risk you choose to take, but on the other hand just being slightly improve AC's would work too... And be way better for guns like the uac2 where the whole thing is silly, and the uac20 where the line between meh and overpowered is REALLY thin when you have double firing and jamming. RNG is very tough for balancing.



View PostScarecrowES, on 28 September 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:


I did add the qualifier "compared to TT." I know when I mount gauss in MWO, they account for maybe 1 out of 20+ deaths. I know it's so rare I'm still surprised to see it come up on my death screen. Quite a difference from TT where there's a good chance that if you mounted a gauss, it was going to kill you - unless you were very smart with the positioning of the weapon and your use of CASE. Oh, and that's another thing that was downright lethal in TT that's pitiful in MWO - ammo explosions.

Now... if gauss was guaranteed to explode if the component it was mounted in was taken out, not just on a crit... that might be something. They'd be exploding a LOT more, eh? ;)


Gauss explodes basically as often as in TT, it's just taking 20 damage isn't nearly as devastating, so you won't notice so much.

Gauss DOES explode if the component is taken out, too, btw.

Whenever a component is destroyed, ammo and Gauss roll for explosion exactly as I'd they'd been destroyed via crits.

Edited by Wintersdark, 29 September 2016 - 04:15 AM.


#94 Ultimax

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 06:20 AM

View PostDeathlike, on 29 September 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

...Clan UAC2s... (if it wasn't already mechanically worthless AS IS).



To be fair, Quad CUAC 2 HBK-IICs have been used very frequently and to surprisingly good effect by several of Emp's players in both standard queue and MWOWC and having tried it I was pretty enthusiastic about its versatility and damage potential. (I'm just not enthusiastic about regularly playing mediums Posted Image )


I agree with the rest though.

#95 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 06:45 AM

View PostPjwned, on 29 September 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

It would also be a really boring method of "balancing" them.

Boring is better than frustrating or stupidly easy.

View PostPjwned, on 29 September 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

The RNG mechanic isn't even as bad as whiners like to make everybody else think

Yes, it actually it is, it is a bad balancing mechanic because of how far on the power curve it can swing. Having the ability to double 4 UAC10s three consecutive times is incredibly powerful, but having 4 UAC10s jammed after trying to fire 2 consecutive double taps is absolutely horrible in a fire fight. RNG that can swing so far around the power curve is just bad gameplay, both for the user and the receiver have a bad time.

View PostPjwned, on 29 September 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

I've seen so many people just spam the double tap whenever possible

That's the point of UACs, the jam mechanic has no regard for how often you double tap, just that you do. If I'm going to waste extra tonnage on a weapon I'm going to use double taps, and to get the most of double taps, you have to fire as often as possible to maximize DPS. If you don't think that's the way it should be used then it needs to change to incentivize the "correct" usage.

View PostPjwned, on 29 September 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

That has more to do with the fact that you almost always don't want to bring only 1 AC5 (or 1 AC2 for that matter) because it doesn't really do enough DPS or burst damage to make it worth only bringing 1;

But why make it worse, because RNG jams definitely can make it worse?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 September 2016 - 06:45 AM.


#96 Reno Blade

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 07:08 AM

Would UACs be perfect without RNG if every double tap would jam - AFTER the shot - for 2x cooldown?

That way you would have the same dps as normal ACs, but has the ability to deal double the dmg whenever needed for a single double-shot burst.

#97 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 07:50 AM

View PostReno Blade, on 29 September 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

Would UACs be perfect without RNG if every double tap would jam - AFTER the shot - for 2x cooldown?

That way you would have the same dps as normal ACs, but has the ability to deal double the dmg whenever needed for a single double-shot burst.

Then UACs would still be better because you have better burst damage with the same DPS. You would probably have to triple the cooldown at that point, which seems ridiculous just to try and balance these against normal ACs, all to keep this double tap as a feature of UACs. More interesting things can and should be done.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 September 2016 - 07:51 AM.


#98 Wintersdark

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 08:18 AM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 29 September 2016 - 06:45 AM, said:

Yes, it actually it is, it is a bad balancing mechanic because of how far on the power curve it can swing. Having the ability to double 4 UAC10s three consecutive times is incredibly powerful, but having 4 UAC10s jammed after trying to fire 2 consecutive double taps is absolutely horrible in a fire fight. RNG that can swing so far around the power curve is just bad gameplay, both for the user and the receiver have a bad time.


This.

Consider, if you will, the UAC20.

If it doesn't jam, it's dropping 40 damage every time it fires. This is pushing a single UAC20 mech to the damage potential of a dual AC20 Jag.

Now think about adding an IS UAC20. Two IS UAC20's would be brutally effective, and would swing between crushingly powerful and utterly useless depending on luck.

The jam mechanic is a poor balancing mechanic, because the swing is too large.


To illustrate why this is a problem:

Consider traditional RPG combat, with a player having a random chance to hit.

Lets assume the enemy has 100 HP.

If a player hits 100% of the time, and does 10 damage per hit, it'll take him 10 hits to kill his opponent.

If a player hits 50% of the time, and does 20 damage per hit, it'll take him (over enough fights) an average of 10 hits to kill his opponent. However, in the case of a particular match, he could kill his opponent in 5 consecutive hits (half the time as the former example) or literally never if he's sufficiently unluckly.

In the first case, the player's performance is 100% skill based; he wins or loses based on his ability to make those attacks, not RNJesus. In the second, while overall wins and losses will tend to balance themselves out, he's going to have some battles where he loses even though he outplays his opponent simply because he misses too much due to RNJesus.

Now consider a player hitting 10% of the time, for 100 damage. You're still averaging 10 hits to kill, but now potentially killing in one attack, or again possibly never.


RNJesus is great for tabletop games, where you don't have the same skill gating on aiming, but once you start adding manual aiming in a game the abstraction of the random generation is no longer necessary and instead is actively disadvantageous unless you actually want your game to have a random buffer to reduce skill level disparity. That's not necessarily bad, but it's a deliberate choice one should make, because that's the game design you want.

The same applies with damage, really. The more randomisation you put into play, the more difficult it is to balance, and the more random luck impacts the progress of a battle.

As a rule of thumb, in competitive PvP games, random number generation is a very, very bad thing. People get very annoyed when they outplay their opponent but still lose because RNJesus hates them.

#99 ScarecrowES

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 08:19 AM

View PostWintersdark, on 29 September 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

Im fine either way, really. The jam mechanic is fine, as that's a risk you choose to take, but on the other hand just being slightly improve AC's would work too... And be way better for guns like the uac2 where the whole thing is silly, and the uac20 where the line between meh and overpowered is REALLY thin when you have double firing and jamming. RNG is very tough for balancing.





Gauss explodes basically as often as in TT, it's just taking 20 damage isn't nearly as devastating, so you won't notice so much.

Gauss DOES explode if the component is taken out, too, btw.

Whenever a component is destroyed, ammo and Gauss roll for explosion exactly as I'd they'd been destroyed via crits.


Are you sure about this last part? Cuz I lose my Gauss often on mechs like my EBJ where it's in the torso, and rarely do I ever die from it. If so, that explosion is simply too weak if you can just slough it off and keep going.

#100 Wintersdark

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 08:20 AM

View PostScarecrowES, on 29 September 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

Are you sure about this last part? Cuz I lose my Gauss often on mechs like my EBJ where it's in the torso, and rarely do I ever die from it. If so, that explosion is simply too weak if you can just slough it off and keep going.


Why would you die from it? You understand it's only 20 damage, right? And it's 20 damage located in a destroyed location, so it's subject to damage transfer mechanics.





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