32 replies to this topic

[Crockdaddy]

SilentScreamer, on 23 September 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

I am a PUG loyalist so my experience in Community Warfare/Faction Play is probably very different from the large unit members. Now that last weeks faction play event is over I would like to once again pitch a proposal.

Remove Mercenary contract selection from the game. Instead allow mercenaries to only select which mech type (Clan or Inner Sphere) to drop as, then have a matchmaker automatically place the mercenaries on active planets in order get the fastest queue times. Essentially the matchmaker would keep all Mercenaries in a "bucket" instead of a planet queue and would place those mercs in order to fill in ranks of loyalists (the call to arms system already identifies those planets so the matchmaker partially exists already). Example- if 7 davions are queued against 5 kuritians there is currently no match possible. This proposal would fill both sides up to 12 using Mercenaries who queued in Inner Sphere mechs.

- the current "contract" system attempts to balance total population, not active players. (Since Liao and Marik are at +40 right now I would say contracts balances population poorly).

- Mercenary groups would no longer be able to pile up in the "faction of the moment" ( recently Clan Jade Falcon) which leads to both population balance issues and queue balance issues.

So, if the majority of active players are Mercenary the queues will automatically balance to launch matches. If the queues are dominated by one or two loyalist groups that can't queus directly ( previously Jade Falcon and Davion) this system would use mercenaries to balance those peak populations. I think the pros outweigh the cons, especially for large merc units:

1) no more contract penaly hurting c-bill earnings
2) no more waiting for your unit leader to log-in and renew your contract so you can play.
3) If your unit is queuing multiple groups you might actually get to play against each other for c-bills
4) potentially faster queue times instead of waiting for opponents as 3rd+ group in queue
5) status as neutral with respect to Clans/I.S. means you are not locked out of your Clan/I.S. mechs for a week at a time due to a contract. Finish a drop as Clan, then queue up as I.S. next drop.

Downside
1) Mercenaries do not get to pick where you fight. Only what mechs you drop in.
2) Planet control would be very hard to achieve for Mercs as they would not be able to reliably play at the same planet.

Thoughts?

**edit**
added point 5)

Coming from a 15 year House Kurita Loyal MERC Unit I could get behind this idea. Is it perfect? No ... but it does seem to solve a complex problem of buckets and how to we reward the Loyalists. Loyalists should be by far the backbone in this game. MERCS should be a very strong component as well but not the foundation. This idea could certainly be tweaked. For example, MERCS choose IS / Clan week by week rather than match by match. Something has to give on this issue for consistent match times. We can't always screw over the loyalist which is largely what happens today.

[Kael Posavatz]

Crockdaddy, on 26 September 2016 - 05:09 AM, said:

Loyalists should be by far the backbone in this game. MERCS should be a very strong component as well but not the foundation.

Except that PGI has already determined that MERCS are the backbone of this game. This goes to their decision that every player needs to be able to access every part of the game from day 1. If loyalists chose to restrict themselves, that's their choice.

[Crockdaddy]

Kael Posavatz, on 26 September 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

Except that PGI has already determined that MERCS are the backbone of this game. This goes to their decision that every player needs to be able to access every part of the game from day 1. If loyalists chose to restrict themselves, that's their choice.

You can close your eyes if you like. This game has one of two choices. Either it deepens its lore and attracts players into it for the richness and depth of the game or it dramatically speeds up queue times in Faction Play. If it can't do one or the other PGI might as well shut it down. As it is the mode is pretty weak. NS has close to 200 members whom have on average spent over 100$ into this game. Around 60 of us are founders. The lack of depth has made one of the most active and strong units in MWO into a unit that barely cares for the product anymore. WE ARE A MERC unit for the love of god but even the blind can see if you don't have a strong loyalist foundation then the ACTUAL factions are meaningless. Literally the utter ignorance of the lore and deepness of story inside of each faction plus the marginalization of Loyalist basically break Faction Play down into a simple Arena shooter with 4 re spawns. Only it isn't that great of a game mode all on its own like say Overwatch or BF would be to carry on its own. It needs LORE and it needs people whom care about their faction to make this work. So feel free to cut off your nose to spite your face.

BTW, I am more than well aware what PGI has determined. I've been here for over four years now. Frankly your statement is about as dumb and thoughtless as it gets. I never said MERCs weren't important, just if you want a meaningful Faction Play ... well someone has to give a F*ck about the Factions right? Right now it is the FP queue guessing game where we guess which contract to take from week to week just to find a battle. Gee that is really fun. MERCs largely don't care about factions and if this is a MERC only game then you might as well remove the Faction Play and get it over with ... then PGI can spend more money and time on balance like they have for the last four years.

[SilentScreamer]

DarklightCA, on 26 September 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Balance what populations? Last I checked most factions had very little and even less loyalists. Give the primary Unit population no access to capture planets and only act as fillers and give the primarily solo players access to planets they can't capture regardless, what could go wrong?

Think of Faction Play / Community Warfare as a sailing ship. There are currently MULTIPLE issues with the ship. Fixing any one of these problems by itself will not save the ship. PGI must find a way to address ALL the issues.

1) No wind in the sails - translation : there are not enough players active to drive the gameplay.
This could be for multiple reasons (see below). PGI temporarily boosted populations with the event 2 weeks ago, so this problem is easily fixed, at least for a short-term by offering prizes for events.

2) The crew is ready to mutiny - translation : we are loosing players over time, whether due to boredom, lack of rewards, etc.
PGI intends to fix this by adding the Quick Play modes to Faction Play, thus with Invasion, Assault, Domination and Skirmish they hope to keep players happier.

3) The ship is capsizing - translation : Faction populations (both total membership and active players in queue) are lopsided.
How can you have a balanced war when one side has more players than the rest combined? PGI has stuck by the Mercenary Contracts system, but as shown by Jade Falcon's -40% earnings and Liao/Mariks +40% earnings, contracts is NOT working well enough to even out the load. PGI has instead, suggested their 2-bucket system where Faction Play will be reduced to a generic Clan vs. Inner Sphere queue.

Like I stated above, problem #1 population is easily boosted by events. PGI has a plan for #2 boredom and #3 queue balance. Personally, I do not think PGI's solution for #3 which is "2-buckets" will fix the problem of queue imbalance, so I started this topic.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 26 September 2016 - 11:30 AM.

[DarklightCA]

SilentScreamer, on 26 September 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Think of Faction Play / Community Warfare as a sailing ship. There are currently MULTIPLE issues with the ship. Fixing any one of these problems by itself will not save the ship. PGI must find a way to address ALL the issues.

1) No wind in the sails - translation : there are not enough players active to drive the gameplay.
This could be for multiple reasons (see below). PGI temporarily boosted populations with the event 2 weeks ago, so this problem is easily fixed, at least for a short-term by offering prizes for events.

2) The crew is ready to mutiny - translation : we are loosing players over time, whether due to boredom, lack of rewards, etc.
PGI intends to fix this by adding the Quick Play modes to Faction Play, thus with Invasion, Assault, Domination and Skirmish they hope to keep players happier.

3) The ship is capsizing - translation : Faction populations (both total membership and active players in queue) are lopsided.
How can you have a balanced war when one side has more players than the rest combined? PGI has stuck by the Mercenary Contracts system, but as shown by Jade Falcon's -40% earnings and Liao/Mariks +40% earnings, contracts is NOT working well enough to even out the load. PGI has instead, suggested their 2-bucket system where Faction Play will be reduced to a generic Clan vs. Inner Sphere queue.

Like I stated above, problem #1 population is easily boosted by events. PGI has a plan for #2 boredom and #3 queue balance. Personally, I do not think PGI's solution for #3 which is "2-buckets" will fix the problem of queue imbalance, so I started this topic.

1) There has never been enough players in this gamemode, it's always been plagued by long wait times and ghost drops. That had nothing to do with mercs either. It's always been a issue with spread populations, populations spread between the 10 different factions. Making mercenaries irrelevant and using them as fillers is not going to change that.

2) This gamemode has lost a lot of people, mainly because its not a very interesting gamemode that's plagued by long wait times. It's lost it's one chance at a population boost because PGI allowed all those influx of new steam players to jump straight into that gamemode with trial mechs to get stomped on.

As for PGI adding in Quick Play modes, having different objectives to win a game is a smart idea but incorporating quick play modes is not. Why would anybody want to wait 30 minutes to play domination on a quick play map rather than just playing it in quick play. It's not going to make it anymore enjoyable for people.

3) That contract system shows total population not active population. Even when factions were at a more balanced population % people were still finding it hard to get games because it never represented active population so don't blame that on mercenaries.

Jade Falcon is a populated faction because FRR and Steiner usually represent a lot of actual activity and as such I'll want to contract Jade Falcon so I can get games with them. Liao and Marik have never represented much activity or have had many options to fight active factions and as such they are always going to be underpopulated.

Forcing mercenaries as fillers is not going to change that.

[SilentScreamer]

DarklightCA, on 26 September 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

1) There has never been enough players in this gamemode, it's always been plagued by long wait times and ghost drops. That had nothing to do with mercs either. It's always been a issue with spread populations, populations spread between the 10 different factions. Making mercenaries irrelevant and using them as fillers is not going to change that.

2) This gamemode has lost a lot of people, mainly because its not a very interesting gamemode that's plagued by long wait times. It's lost it's one chance at a population boost because PGI allowed all those influx of new steam players to jump straight into that gamemode with trial mechs to get stomped on.

As for PGI adding in Quick Play modes, having different objectives to win a game is a smart idea but incorporating quick play modes is not. Why would anybody want to wait 30 minutes to play domination on a quick play map rather than just playing it in quick play. It's not going to make it anymore enjoyable for people.

3) That contract system shows total population not active population. Even when factions were at a more balanced population % people were still finding it hard to get games because it never represented active population so don't blame that on mercenaries.

1) There were plenty of players for the Faction Event. Granted those were players who were merely dropped in Faction Play to complete the event. But it shows that Faction Play can have sufficient population if PGI offers motivation.

2) Adding Quick Play modes to Faction Play is PGI's idea, not mine, so I'm not even going to try to defend it.

3) See my original post.

DarklightCA, on 26 September 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

Jade Falcon is a populated faction because FRR and Steiner usually represent a lot of actual activity and as such I'll want to contract Jade Falcon so I can get games with them. Liao and Marik have never represented much activity or have had many options to fight active factions and as such they are always going to be underpopulated.

Forcing mercenaries as fillers is not going to change that.

I disagree. And as stated, I think I am offering a better idea than flushing all Factions down to I.S. vs Clan.

[DarklightCA]

SilentScreamer, on 26 September 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

1) There were plenty of players for the Faction Event. Granted those were players who were merely dropped in Faction Play to complete the event. But it shows that Faction Play can have sufficient population if PGI offers motivation.

2) Adding Quick Play modes to Faction Play is PGI's idea, not mine, so I'm not even going to try to defend it.

3) See my original post.

I disagree. And as stated, I think I am offering a better idea than flushing all Factions down to I.S. vs Clan.

1) Even with the Faction event it was still hard to find games plagued by long wait times. All that shows is that people are willing to play Faction Play for rewards. Giving out rewards is not going to maintain a active population, if you want people to play Faction Play than PGI needs to make it more unique and fun to play and that's the only way but even then there still isn't enough population in this game to support 10 factions.

2) I never said it was your idea, I even said in my post that it was PGI's idea.

How would you know what the active populations are as a loyalist? You don't go anywhere outside of Davion. I've contracted in Marik and their queue's are dead. Not only do they not have a very active population but nobody wants to fight Marik as they would rather fight on the Clan border and that's the same with Liao for the most part.

FRR and Steiner has always had the more active populations aside from when Kurita use to be a more active faction. As such Jade Falcon has always been the clan contract of choice for that very reason because contracting Jade Falcon gave you the best chance to get games, not just actual games but some decent ones as well and the populations reflect that.

This gamemode is already IS vs Clan as that's where majority of the activity is. PGI's idea is not ideal for anybody but at the very least those people in the underpopulated factions will be-able to do more than just defend other factions planets.

[SilentScreamer]

DarklightCA, on 26 September 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

How would you know what the active populations are as a loyalist? You don't go anywhere outside of Davion. I've contracted in Marik and their queue's are dead. Not only do they not have a very active population but nobody wants to fight Marik as they would rather fight on the Clan border and that's the same with Liao for the most part.

There does happen to be a little column in the "Map" tab of Faction Warfare called "Other Activity" which shows even a Davion Loyalist what the other factions are doing.

[DarklightCA]

SilentScreamer, on 26 September 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

There does happen to be a little column in the "Map" tab of Faction Warfare called "Other Activity" which shows even a Davion Loyalist what the other factions are doing.

True enough, you can see the numbers from there. As I contract Clan though and attack planets I see where that population actually is. Every battle is one more skittle team of various players from various factions choosing to defend other factions planets because they have little activity of their own.

When I contract with those factions I see how empty their faction chat is everytime I call out "I just need one more player on X planet" with no response or anybody queuing for that planet. Even forming up a 12 man in those underpopulated factions to attack the only factions they have access to like Davion only to never have anybody willing to defend against a Marik attack.

Those factions are nothing but ghost drops, long wait times unless you choose to defend planets where the activity is which is on the IS/Clan border. As such it's driven merc contracts to the only factions that present access to games.

Edited by DarklightCA, 26 September 2016 - 05:01 PM.

[Crockdaddy]

DarklightCA, on 26 September 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

1) Even with the Faction event it was still hard to find games plagued by long wait times. All that shows is that people are willing to play Faction Play for rewards. Giving out rewards is not going to maintain a active population, if you want people to play Faction Play than PGI needs to make it more unique and fun to play and that's the only way but even then there still isn't enough population in this game to support 10 factions.

2) I never said it was your idea, I even said in my post that it was PGI's idea.

How would you know what the active populations are as a loyalist? You don't go anywhere outside of Davion. I've contracted in Marik and their queue's are dead. Not only do they not have a very active population but nobody wants to fight Marik as they would rather fight on the Clan border and that's the same with Liao for the most part.

FRR and Steiner has always had the more active populations aside from when Kurita use to be a more active faction. As such Jade Falcon has always been the clan contract of choice for that very reason because contracting Jade Falcon gave you the best chance to get games, not just actual games but some decent ones as well and the populations reflect that.

This gamemode is already IS vs Clan as that's where majority of the activity is. PGI's idea is not ideal for anybody but at the very least those people in the underpopulated factions will be-able to do more than just defend other factions planets.

To be fair to Kurita there aren't many choices once Smoke Jag's are pushed back into their home planet. Kurita nominally didn't want a fight with FRR (because of CW#1 loyalties) and Davion's largely wont queue due to CW 1 , 2 dominance of Kuritan Units over Davion Units. Steiner and Kurita never really fought much because CW#1 + 2 the clans pushed hard onto the both of us. So it comes down to borders on the map and where the active population happens to lie.

I give up. Close down Faction Play already. It is largely a farce or keep a running event going to keep peoples interest.

[DarklightCA]

Kurita use to be my units first choice in a IS contract until it became apparent that there was little population in the opposite factions on the Clan border to find games. FRR was busy with other lanes and as you said it was hard to get Davion to respond to attacks likely for a mix of both reasons.

Everybody is just doing what is necessary to find games which at this point is stacking one side of the map.

Edited by DarklightCA, 26 September 2016 - 08:00 PM.

[SilentScreamer]

SilentScreamer, on 25 September 2016 - 08:37 PM, said:

Mercenary Unit Contracts have not balanced populations. If Mercs are used as gap-fillers for Loyalist queues I think we would see more activity and higher quality matches.

So let's be honest, what do we want out of Faction Play?
a) 24/7 ghost drops
b) PUG stomp extravaganza
c) balanced queues where you get matches quickly and are just as likely to face a well-coordinated Merc unit as PUGs.

Guess I have had my question answered by Gerwig.....http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/237556-queues/

Gerwig, on 28 September 2016 - 10:06 AM, said:

Wolf attacking Falcon 13/0
Liao attacking Falcon 26/46

Jade Falcon would rather ghost drop than face Clan Tech

Edited by SilentScreamer, 28 September 2016 - 04:49 PM.

[Jugger Grimrod]

"Faction Play: The Band Played On."