A man walks into a guns hop and says "I can't shoot targets at close range with this rifle."
The shop owner replies, "No worries, you'll be able to shoot targets point blank just fine if you buy the long-barreled version."
That makes about as much sense as a bag of hammers.
So, why can you not shoot someone less than 90 meters away with a normal PPC but you can shoot them at such ranges with the extended-range PPC?
I'm gonna guess it has something to do with either Norse mythology or someone named Kerensky.
0
7 replies to this topic
#2
-
-
- The Mercenary
- 3,270 posts
Member
- LocationFrankfurt a.M.
Posted 23 September 2016 - 03:22 AM
The thing with PPCs is...as with some other weapons in MWO...whey have been implemented pretty wrong.
A PPC has no absolut minimum range (IS LRM also don't they have a safety activation range to avoid going of in the launcher or near the shooting mech) PPCs have a safety shut of range that is 90m.
A PPC fires either protons or heavier ions taken from the high energy high pressure fusion engine of the Mech by compressing and supercharging them through a number of EM-Fieldcoils creating a stream of charged particles focused on the Target.
Simply said a standart PPC is more like a brute force weapon that originaly has become possible by the use of of fusion engines. Its little brother is the Battlemech Flamer. (BM Flamers are basicaly large Plasmatorches)
You can fire a PPC below 90m in Battletech doing insame amounts of damage when you disable the Field inhibitor of the weapon, but you risk a particle feed back frying every single electronic system in your mech, possibly destroying the weapon and causing damage to the Mech.
The more advanced ER PPC has an other tech base achieving the same effect as the standart PPC but without its downsides except for the extreme heat it causes.
There are different systems described in the BT novels. Some even describe the ERPPCs a hybrid between a gas/plasma laser and a high energy particle weapon.
A PPC has no absolut minimum range (IS LRM also don't they have a safety activation range to avoid going of in the launcher or near the shooting mech) PPCs have a safety shut of range that is 90m.
A PPC fires either protons or heavier ions taken from the high energy high pressure fusion engine of the Mech by compressing and supercharging them through a number of EM-Fieldcoils creating a stream of charged particles focused on the Target.
Simply said a standart PPC is more like a brute force weapon that originaly has become possible by the use of of fusion engines. Its little brother is the Battlemech Flamer. (BM Flamers are basicaly large Plasmatorches)
You can fire a PPC below 90m in Battletech doing insame amounts of damage when you disable the Field inhibitor of the weapon, but you risk a particle feed back frying every single electronic system in your mech, possibly destroying the weapon and causing damage to the Mech.
The more advanced ER PPC has an other tech base achieving the same effect as the standart PPC but without its downsides except for the extreme heat it causes.
There are different systems described in the BT novels. Some even describe the ERPPCs a hybrid between a gas/plasma laser and a high energy particle weapon.
Edited by The Basilisk, 23 September 2016 - 04:07 AM.
#3
-
-
- The Pest
- 224 posts
Member
- LocationNorth Carolina
Posted 23 September 2016 - 05:22 AM
What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
As far as the barrel length....the 'extra length' needed for the closer range capability may be the extra shielding or 'magic dust' enclosure needed to allow this...
???
Plastic Guru
As far as the barrel length....the 'extra length' needed for the closer range capability may be the extra shielding or 'magic dust' enclosure needed to allow this...
???
Plastic Guru
The Basilisk, on 23 September 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:
The thing with PPCs is...as with some other weapons in MWO...whey have been implemented pretty wrong.
A PPC has no absolut minimum range (IS LRM also don't they have a safety activation range to avoid going of in the launcher or near the shooting mech) PPCs have a safety shut of range that is 90m.
A PPC fires either protons or heavier ions taken from the high energy high pressure fusion engine of the Mech by compressing and supercharging them through a number of EM-Fieldcoils creating a stream of charged particles focused on the Target.
Simply said a standart PPC is more like a brute force weapon that originaly has become possible by the use of of fusion engines. Its little brother is the Battlemech Flamer. (BM Flamers are basicaly large Plasmatorches)
You can fire a PPC below 90m in Battletech doing insame amounts of damage when you disable the Field inhibitor of the weapon, but you risk a particle feed back frying every single electronic system in your mech, possibly destroying the weapon and causing damage to the Mech.
The more advanced ER PPC has an other tech base achieving the same effect as the standart PPC but without its downsides except for the extreme heat it causes.
There are different systems described in the BT novels. Some even describe the ERPPCs a hybrid between a gas/plasma laser and a high energy particle weapon.
A PPC has no absolut minimum range (IS LRM also don't they have a safety activation range to avoid going of in the launcher or near the shooting mech) PPCs have a safety shut of range that is 90m.
A PPC fires either protons or heavier ions taken from the high energy high pressure fusion engine of the Mech by compressing and supercharging them through a number of EM-Fieldcoils creating a stream of charged particles focused on the Target.
Simply said a standart PPC is more like a brute force weapon that originaly has become possible by the use of of fusion engines. Its little brother is the Battlemech Flamer. (BM Flamers are basicaly large Plasmatorches)
You can fire a PPC below 90m in Battletech doing insame amounts of damage when you disable the Field inhibitor of the weapon, but you risk a particle feed back frying every single electronic system in your mech, possibly destroying the weapon and causing damage to the Mech.
The more advanced ER PPC has an other tech base achieving the same effect as the standart PPC but without its downsides except for the extreme heat it causes.
There are different systems described in the BT novels. Some even describe the ERPPCs a hybrid between a gas/plasma laser and a high energy particle weapon.
#4
-
-
- The Mercenary
- 3,270 posts
Member
- LocationFrankfurt a.M.
Posted 23 September 2016 - 05:45 AM
The closest to real life weapon project would either be the MARAUDER Toroidal Plasma Cannon
or the repurposed Shiva Star.
Longstory short its not a particle gun but more like a precursor to a ball lightning cannon causing an exposion of electomagnetic energy, heat and electricity at the target.
Closer to a Battletech PPC are nowadays Electrolasers that work more like longrange tasers.
They use a Laser to create a channel of ionized air sending a massive electrical charge through it, creating a directed artificial lightning that either will kill electronics in the target or stun/kill a human.
Imagine putting a TJ fusion engine as powerplant (witch might be closer to reality than most of us realize ^^) behind such a device and you've got your ERPPC.
or the repurposed Shiva Star.
Longstory short its not a particle gun but more like a precursor to a ball lightning cannon causing an exposion of electomagnetic energy, heat and electricity at the target.
Closer to a Battletech PPC are nowadays Electrolasers that work more like longrange tasers.
They use a Laser to create a channel of ionized air sending a massive electrical charge through it, creating a directed artificial lightning that either will kill electronics in the target or stun/kill a human.
Imagine putting a TJ fusion engine as powerplant (witch might be closer to reality than most of us realize ^^) behind such a device and you've got your ERPPC.
Edited by The Basilisk, 23 September 2016 - 05:58 AM.
#5
-
-
- Liquid Metal
- 580 posts
Member
- LocationBeyond the Black Stump
Posted 23 September 2016 - 05:58 AM
PPC's are effectively lightning guns, they send a large ball of magical electric flavoured pain down range to the determent of whatever it was aimed at.
Now the thing is with electricity is that it likes to follow the path of least resistance, optimistically this means it should go through the target, frying anything from electronics to the pilot before earthing itself. However if you happen to fire the weapon too close to the target then there is a very good chance that the path of least resistance is going to be the ionized stream the gun created to launch its jolty little payload. For cases like this the PPC has a 'field inhibitor' that stops the projectile forming properly under a certain range in order to prevent return lightning strikes from damaging the weapon system.
The ERPPC solves this issue with brute force. By using significantly more power and creating significantly more heat because of it, the ERPPC manages to turn it's ion stream into an ion torrent. The weapon still fires the same sized payload, but more power to the ion stream results in a longer effective range and it creates a greater directional force so wayward electrons don't accidentally find their way home. Pseudo-science at it's best.
Now the thing is with electricity is that it likes to follow the path of least resistance, optimistically this means it should go through the target, frying anything from electronics to the pilot before earthing itself. However if you happen to fire the weapon too close to the target then there is a very good chance that the path of least resistance is going to be the ionized stream the gun created to launch its jolty little payload. For cases like this the PPC has a 'field inhibitor' that stops the projectile forming properly under a certain range in order to prevent return lightning strikes from damaging the weapon system.
The ERPPC solves this issue with brute force. By using significantly more power and creating significantly more heat because of it, the ERPPC manages to turn it's ion stream into an ion torrent. The weapon still fires the same sized payload, but more power to the ion stream results in a longer effective range and it creates a greater directional force so wayward electrons don't accidentally find their way home. Pseudo-science at it's best.
Edited by CheeseThief, 23 September 2016 - 06:24 AM.
#6
-
-
- The Guide
- 23,384 posts
Welcoming Committee
Posted 23 September 2016 - 06:17 AM
Hunka Junk, on 23 September 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:
A man walks into a guns hop and says "I can't shoot targets at close range with this rifle."
The shop owner replies, "No worries, you'll be able to shoot targets point blank just fine if you buy the long-barreled version."
That makes about as much sense as a bag of hammers.
So, why can you not shoot someone less than 90 meters away with a normal PPC but you can shoot them at such ranges with the extended-range PPC?
I'm gonna guess it has something to do with either Norse mythology or someone named Kerensky.
The shop owner replies, "No worries, you'll be able to shoot targets point blank just fine if you buy the long-barreled version."
That makes about as much sense as a bag of hammers.
So, why can you not shoot someone less than 90 meters away with a normal PPC but you can shoot them at such ranges with the extended-range PPC?
I'm gonna guess it has something to do with either Norse mythology or someone named Kerensky.
Consider this. Go outside and eye something in the distance. Point your arm at it. Point at something else also in front of you at the same distance or similar. how long did that take? Now shift to something nearby but also in front of you. How much movement did it take? Longer and more, right?
Now point at moving things like an excited dog at a distance and up close as you run around.
This is why all projectile weapons with barrels have a minimum ACCURACY range penalty. It is the added difficulty of hitting a small, nimble target roughly the size of 12 meters in height or length with something that must be aimed. I've also noticed interesting behavior like min accuracy range for ACs being present on torso mounts but not always there on arm mounts as it is easier and quicker to move and adjust arms. This is why Clan autocannons tend to be on arms for omnimechs even though it requires the removal of actuators for ammo feeding. This also has a bit to do with many mechs having hand mounted weapons back in the day, giving them an edge even though arms take damage more often since the roll for hitting an enemy factors in that an enemy will always try to dodge or block.
Mech dodging is another fun topic but I won't run on a tangent for it; it is another reason heavy hitting single shot FLD tank projectiles known as Mech Rifles (where a single 190mm shell can do 6 damage versus armor or 9 damage versus structure for only 8 tons of gun at an accurate range of greater than an ac/5) are abandoned in favor of "gigantic machine guns" known as autocannons, where the largest Inner Sphere ac/20 fires 185mm armor piercing high explosive shells with a terrible accurate range of half it as well as a true range of only two/thirds the total distance for the shell at only two kilometers, and 5 damage each (the accurate range is a combination of slower projectile due to significantly shorter shells fresulting in less propellant and the high recoil of firing them four times faster than a Rifle can at an impressive rate of 1 shell per second and a cassette exchange rate of 2 seconds; though firing two salvos without proper chance to let the weapon itself cool could lead to barrel warping, feeding mechanism failure or several other potential permanent jam risks.)
Damn it on went on a side tangent trying to avoid my tangent.
Back to PPCs. PPCs have an inherent problem via 1990+ lore (lore prior to this is heavy weapon is hard to aim, barrel is two tons, cooling cables and cooling jackets are 4 tons and actual weapon functionality is 1 ton; after the lore change the weapon is 2 tons including field inhibitor, the cooling at 4 tons and the barrel at one ton.). The problem is that despite all the cooling equipment they tend to explode in your face. Thus field inhibitors. The result? Prior to firing the weapon must charge up in order to fire. Not actually charge but delay firing to acclimate the necessary particles. A Lord's Light PPC is known for a 2 second firing delay, bright light during the final half second, and the thunderous crack upon firing. It is also favored over some faster shooting PPCs as the buildup of ten units of heat is more gradual, keeping things from getting too unpleasant for the pilot as a single PPC with only 6 working standard heatsinks and movement runs the risk of causing burns on the pilot's skin...for a Griffin's PPC held in the right hand. It is that unbearably hot. Cockpit temps exceed several hundred degrees for several seconds despite all the life support and cooking systems inside the cockpit. Some pilots are known to pop the hatch to vent or even leave the cockpit entirely after firing three PPCs to avoid being cooked to death, that's with 28 singles or a cooking rate of 2.8 per second. This is why the Awesome 8Q specifically uses Kreuss PPCs, known for longer firing delays. Even then it must be fired in a pattern of 2, 1, 2, 1 to maintain fire without injury to the pilot with ten seconds between each salvo of 2 or 1.
Why would people use this weapon? For a single shot the only thing more powerful until we get past 3055 short of artillery and artillery missiles... is a Gauss Rifle. AC/20 has 5 cassettes or magazines (called Rounds to save space on ammo monitor) of anywhere from 4 to 100 shots per round. (Specific UAC/20s have mags of 2-150 shots per "round"). The Long Tom carries 10 shells per ton of ammo and can do 270 damage total in BT from explosive force. The BT Gauss Rifle has no explosive but from direct impact can and does rip through a mech with entry and exit points, delivering 12 to 19 damage (glancing/direct blows rule) in a single blow with a true range of 4,500 meters, an accurate range (without difficulty penalties) of 660 meters (same as LRMs) against targets much harder to hit than MWO's lights, and it does this despite the need to prime the weapon and at only 8 shots per ton.
Will bring up ER PPCs later.
#7
-
-
- The God of Death
- 962 posts
Member
Posted 23 September 2016 - 05:53 PM
Pacify yourself =p
wasn't all this .... moved properly to the lore section?
wasn't all this .... moved properly to the lore section?
#8
-
-
- The Guide
- 23,384 posts
Welcoming Committee
Posted 23 September 2016 - 10:42 PM
It gets moved eventually.
Back.
Some other things to address:
The lore of PPCs, unlike most weapon systems, have changed several times due to the creation of ER PPCs by a newer generation of rule makers who overlooked the reason for that minimum range but at least was bright enough to tack in additional heat. The only other weapon system whose lore has changed at least once has been LRMs.
To give an example of the LRM change and why it came about:
Akin to that, but for much simpler reasons, the fluff of the PPC changed soon after Clans were introduced. Retro-integrated into lore was the existence of ER PPCs and double heatsinks, set before the years the Battletech franchise was really set in and including that much more lore and history along with it as support for who the Clans are and why they are here. But why was the ER PPC even created? Simple, someone was frustrated with the particularly harsh minimum accurate range of the PPC and said "wouldn't it be cool if I didn't have to add 3 to my To Hit roll if someone was right in front of me?" "How would you balance it?" "Make it hotter." "Holy crap that is hot... I think that's fair. Lets do it." And thus, the ER PPC was born.
Lore-wise, the PPC's field inhibitor change is meant to explain why one has it and the other doesn't without a weight change. The standard PPC -- which even though ER PPCs were retro-introduced before what was Battletech's big timelines at the time -- did come first. It had the "problem" that if it was readied to fire too quickly the force of the blast would go in all directions and not just forward. Later they simply called this "Feedback" to encompass the fact that novelists explained different "brands" of PPC in different ways, ultimately meaning that there are PPCs that fire this kind of particle, that kind, some that fire with blue, some that fire green or yellow or orange, some that fire Hexagonal swirls (Timber Wolf, Summoner, Hellbringer, any Omnimech with the "Timber Wolf/Hellbringer" style arm), some that fire spherical balls, some that fire an effect that looks like 'tinted heatwaves in the air'...
So despite all the variations, different kinds of effects, etc., they all have one thing in common. If they get fire as fast as the cannon wants to fire, it can blow up in your face and rip the weapon apart. Or in one case rip itself right out of the torso. Fun, isn't it? Field Inhibitor delays the firing process and in doing so makes it easier to focus the weapon forward.
(Old PPC and missile lore, as written in 1987 by the first novelist William H Keith Jr. Explains original PPC minimum range as "It's heavy and hard to manuever", note that over 90% of PPCs are mounted on arms at this stage of Battletech, often as 'hand held' weapons. LRMs are explained as ballistic launch angles, requiring a mech to tilt or aim at uncomfortable angles to hit something closer.) With this image I also make a amendment correction to my previous post, the original weight distribution isn't as specific as I gave, but 4 to 5 of the 7 tons is dedicated to the weapon's internals and cooling.
PPC charge up mechanic, created by PGI under the direction of Jordan Weisman, co-founder of FASA the original Battletech creators and current head of Harebrained Studios, makers of the current Battletech computer game.
Listen to the PPCs, watch their icons on the left and right as they 'fill' before firing, and notice the original Mechwarrior-style weapon group system. This is for PGI's Mechwarrior 5, an abandoned project due to near financial collapse with Microsoft's overlordship before PGI tried again with MWO with their own control over the license, even if it is rented. Jordan helped to guide MWO's start, but did not stick around as he dropped off to start yet another company.
Back to the video: Notice the enemy Atlas's AC is fully automatic and is definitely not doing 10 to 20 damage per shot. In fact each shot of the PPC does boatloads more damage than each individual shot of the AC, as it is in lore. There's even a Battletech mech Sprint. What is more, the PPCs are never fired at the same time as the reprecussions of that might almost certainly kill the pilot or cause some serious trouble. The video concludes with a "Stackpole", aka a seemingly nuclear explosion written by the author Stackpole, which the characters describing the event thought the explosion was nuclear. Sadly people don't always realize that novels often use character perspective to flare the experience; it was an engine containment failure and the reaction is sub-nuclear. The area of effect is actually lower than the detonation of a 1920s 2,000 lb (1 ton) bomb. Rule-wise, buildings nearby do take damage and some can be destroyed if 'soft' enough.
EDIT: after watching the video again, I noticed that what happened isn't actually a Stackpole at all. The left arm PPC is charging while the Warhammer sprints forward. Left arm is destroyed by the LRM launch. This causes an overload. The PPC is the initial cause of the explosion! This is followed by a series of secondary explosions; an ammunition cookoff. The cookoff causes engine damage. Somewhere in this, either 'all' the ammo cooked off at once or a stackpole eventually occurs. However the original cause chain reactions that followed is the PPC being destroyed during charge up. o.O; I think that's pretty neat.
Back to PPCs and ER PPCs.
ER PPCs manage to overcome the issue of exploding and need for the field inhibitor. To reflect that, it produces more heat. This is because less of the weight is dedicated to cooling equipment and more to the barrel and overall weapon casing. The barrel is 4 tons and is both considerably thicker and slightly longer. (Another reason for the lore change, 'hard to fire due to bulky and heavy' doesn't get easier if you make the barrel thicker, longer and heavier for the version that isn't hard to fire.) This focuses the blast where they want it and intentionally vents the excess in such a way that it would radiate, heating not just the heatsinks' coolant as it flows through the pumps and 'veins' of the 'Mech but also the 'Mech itself, causing that much more work for the heatsinks.
I don't tend to get into the specifics of what a weapon fires because this varies from author to author (there's over 35 variants of standard and double heatsinks if this tells you anything at all. There's 18+ variants of AC/20, 15 of which are unique compared to each other, there are over 60+ variants of Standard Inner Sphere Medium Laser, of which 44 are truly unique from each other in form, function, etc. The only things they have in common is they generally produce the same results in a 10 second cycle).
One thing that is certain: Almost every version of the PPC uses a combination of Thermal and Kinetic damage, in other words there's enough force for a canonical / lore-friendly "Recoil" when fired, and a physical "Umph" when it hits.
The PPC in the most broadest term of function and impact is best described as a combination of laser (standard not pulse; pulse lasers are laser machine guns) OR Flamer (depending on the manufacturer or more honestly, the Author) and a Mech Rifle (not to be confused with a BT Autocannon; Mech Rifles are the ones based on 21st century tank cannons).
(PPC and the logic behind the weapon possibly exploding.. as well as the one PPC that ripped itself right out of the Mech's torso and threw itself into a nearby abandoned house.
)
From Tech Manual, "Heavy Lasers"
Note: They compare the firepower to a very, VERY specific PPC, the PartiKill. This is very common, and if one took the time to learn the unique weapon variants and subvariants, this isn't just a trend to sound cool, the individual weapons may 'fit' within generic classes but they function very differently.
From Pulse Lasers under TechManual (for those wondering where I came up with "Laser Machine Guns")
Specific laser reference under Medium Lasers from TechManual
It is noteworthy the most powerful medium laser is the Rassal Blue Beam; it isn't considered the most efficient however because it causes a plethora of problems including ElectroMagnetic Interference on yourself and extra heat due to poor weight allowed for its sub-par Cooling Jacket . The price of Pinpoint Front Loaded Damage to the Nth degree.
TechManual: PPC
Bet you saw "it." Just hold it until after you read ER PPC.
ER PPC; TechManual
Tech Manual uses "discharge" as the term... and frying electronics? Doesn't match what any of us has shared, does it? It also fails to explain the explosion you must do of 10 damage if the PPC explodes on you, but note this is lore written by WizKidz and published in 2007.
Wizkidz is known for this level of technical aptitude,
so whatever they didn't get from the Battletech Condopendium and other sources... seems quite contrived.
My point is the lore changes hands and companies time and time again, and changes as it goes along. So gather it all together, and remember that Battletech as a game invites you to choose what you accept.
I personally favor much of the 1980s lore as that was rooted in visits to see actual military hardware in action as well as the more 'realistic robot' TV shows, as opposed to the "borderline Super Robot" versions of those shows that came out in the 90s (I'm looking at you, Gundam).
One of the few shows from that era that kept to its true realistic roots is Patlabor.
Many of Battletech's advanced tabletop mechanics can be found in this scene, from breaking part of the "Labor" (Mech)'s body while trying to manuever in a cramped space, to the effectual difference between a Mech Rifle (the Labor's shotgun) versus an Autocannon (the weapon used by the Quads) which explains why the significantly more powerful Mech Rifle was phased out (to note, however, Autocannon rounds in Battletech explode after impact as they are HEAP, High Explosive Armor Piercing, and by AP they just 'kinda dig in' before going boom, they don't actually pierce armor as in go through it).
More advanced tabletop mechanics: Temporary blindness (flare SRMs, Spotlight, others), ECM, Pilot Consciousness and Fatigue, Melee (Kick, Grapple), unintended targets (a rule for dense areas of trees or buildings, a roll to check for accidental damage or spread of damage to unintended secondary targets; the rule is especially fun for PPCs as you must roll to check if you started an accidental fire; the flames of which generate 2 heat per 10 seconds). Pilot Injury due to impact near cockpit. Modular weapons for Mech Hands (an 'early' FASA thing that got reintroduced with the company Catalyst Games; weapons like those of the Phoenix Hawk in MWO). Infantry support. Infantry-used Anti-Material Rifle (you can kill a 'Mech with one of these provided you make shots for the cockpit). Flooding. Mech-activated switches.
That's in a very brief amount of time, too. Battletech is an amazing thing to play, but sadly while tabletop provides the most amazing freedom and realism you can hope for, the time consuming nature of including 'everything' without the use of something like Megamek to play Battletech is far more than even above-average fans can hope to spend.
----
Now that the baby is sleeping, it's time for a nap before work. Goodnight.
Back.
Some other things to address:
The lore of PPCs, unlike most weapon systems, have changed several times due to the creation of ER PPCs by a newer generation of rule makers who overlooked the reason for that minimum range but at least was bright enough to tack in additional heat. The only other weapon system whose lore has changed at least once has been LRMs.
To give an example of the LRM change and why it came about:
Spoiler
Akin to that, but for much simpler reasons, the fluff of the PPC changed soon after Clans were introduced. Retro-integrated into lore was the existence of ER PPCs and double heatsinks, set before the years the Battletech franchise was really set in and including that much more lore and history along with it as support for who the Clans are and why they are here. But why was the ER PPC even created? Simple, someone was frustrated with the particularly harsh minimum accurate range of the PPC and said "wouldn't it be cool if I didn't have to add 3 to my To Hit roll if someone was right in front of me?" "How would you balance it?" "Make it hotter." "Holy crap that is hot... I think that's fair. Lets do it." And thus, the ER PPC was born.
Lore-wise, the PPC's field inhibitor change is meant to explain why one has it and the other doesn't without a weight change. The standard PPC -- which even though ER PPCs were retro-introduced before what was Battletech's big timelines at the time -- did come first. It had the "problem" that if it was readied to fire too quickly the force of the blast would go in all directions and not just forward. Later they simply called this "Feedback" to encompass the fact that novelists explained different "brands" of PPC in different ways, ultimately meaning that there are PPCs that fire this kind of particle, that kind, some that fire with blue, some that fire green or yellow or orange, some that fire Hexagonal swirls (Timber Wolf, Summoner, Hellbringer, any Omnimech with the "Timber Wolf/Hellbringer" style arm), some that fire spherical balls, some that fire an effect that looks like 'tinted heatwaves in the air'...
So despite all the variations, different kinds of effects, etc., they all have one thing in common. If they get fire as fast as the cannon wants to fire, it can blow up in your face and rip the weapon apart. Or in one case rip itself right out of the torso. Fun, isn't it? Field Inhibitor delays the firing process and in doing so makes it easier to focus the weapon forward.
(Old PPC and missile lore, as written in 1987 by the first novelist William H Keith Jr. Explains original PPC minimum range as "It's heavy and hard to manuever", note that over 90% of PPCs are mounted on arms at this stage of Battletech, often as 'hand held' weapons. LRMs are explained as ballistic launch angles, requiring a mech to tilt or aim at uncomfortable angles to hit something closer.) With this image I also make a amendment correction to my previous post, the original weight distribution isn't as specific as I gave, but 4 to 5 of the 7 tons is dedicated to the weapon's internals and cooling.
PPC charge up mechanic, created by PGI under the direction of Jordan Weisman, co-founder of FASA the original Battletech creators and current head of Harebrained Studios, makers of the current Battletech computer game.
Listen to the PPCs, watch their icons on the left and right as they 'fill' before firing, and notice the original Mechwarrior-style weapon group system. This is for PGI's Mechwarrior 5, an abandoned project due to near financial collapse with Microsoft's overlordship before PGI tried again with MWO with their own control over the license, even if it is rented. Jordan helped to guide MWO's start, but did not stick around as he dropped off to start yet another company.
Back to the video: Notice the enemy Atlas's AC is fully automatic and is definitely not doing 10 to 20 damage per shot. In fact each shot of the PPC does boatloads more damage than each individual shot of the AC, as it is in lore. There's even a Battletech mech Sprint. What is more, the PPCs are never fired at the same time as the reprecussions of that might almost certainly kill the pilot or cause some serious trouble. The video concludes with a "Stackpole", aka a seemingly nuclear explosion written by the author Stackpole, which the characters describing the event thought the explosion was nuclear. Sadly people don't always realize that novels often use character perspective to flare the experience; it was an engine containment failure and the reaction is sub-nuclear. The area of effect is actually lower than the detonation of a 1920s 2,000 lb (1 ton) bomb. Rule-wise, buildings nearby do take damage and some can be destroyed if 'soft' enough.
EDIT: after watching the video again, I noticed that what happened isn't actually a Stackpole at all. The left arm PPC is charging while the Warhammer sprints forward. Left arm is destroyed by the LRM launch. This causes an overload. The PPC is the initial cause of the explosion! This is followed by a series of secondary explosions; an ammunition cookoff. The cookoff causes engine damage. Somewhere in this, either 'all' the ammo cooked off at once or a stackpole eventually occurs. However the original cause chain reactions that followed is the PPC being destroyed during charge up. o.O; I think that's pretty neat.
Back to PPCs and ER PPCs.
ER PPCs manage to overcome the issue of exploding and need for the field inhibitor. To reflect that, it produces more heat. This is because less of the weight is dedicated to cooling equipment and more to the barrel and overall weapon casing. The barrel is 4 tons and is both considerably thicker and slightly longer. (Another reason for the lore change, 'hard to fire due to bulky and heavy' doesn't get easier if you make the barrel thicker, longer and heavier for the version that isn't hard to fire.) This focuses the blast where they want it and intentionally vents the excess in such a way that it would radiate, heating not just the heatsinks' coolant as it flows through the pumps and 'veins' of the 'Mech but also the 'Mech itself, causing that much more work for the heatsinks.
I don't tend to get into the specifics of what a weapon fires because this varies from author to author (there's over 35 variants of standard and double heatsinks if this tells you anything at all. There's 18+ variants of AC/20, 15 of which are unique compared to each other, there are over 60+ variants of Standard Inner Sphere Medium Laser, of which 44 are truly unique from each other in form, function, etc. The only things they have in common is they generally produce the same results in a 10 second cycle).
One thing that is certain: Almost every version of the PPC uses a combination of Thermal and Kinetic damage, in other words there's enough force for a canonical / lore-friendly "Recoil" when fired, and a physical "Umph" when it hits.
The PPC in the most broadest term of function and impact is best described as a combination of laser (standard not pulse; pulse lasers are laser machine guns) OR Flamer (depending on the manufacturer or more honestly, the Author) and a Mech Rifle (not to be confused with a BT Autocannon; Mech Rifles are the ones based on 21st century tank cannons).
(PPC and the logic behind the weapon possibly exploding.. as well as the one PPC that ripped itself right out of the Mech's torso and threw itself into a nearby abandoned house.
)
From Tech Manual, "Heavy Lasers"
Quote
Introduced: 3059 (Clan Star Adder)
According to all reliable reports, scientists from one of the Home
Clans—the Star Adders—pioneered the so-called heavy laser series in
the waning days of 3059. The development dramatically increased the
size of the barrels, focusing crystals and power feeds of extant Clan lasers
to produce a weapon system capable of delivering far greater firepower
per blast. Though the heavy lasers lost much of the range advantage
enjoyed by Clan ER lasers (they actually fell closer to Spheroid standard
range profiles), the real innovation wasn’t so much the laser design itself
as the fact that its creation broke what amounted to more than a century
of technological stagnation among Kerensky’s children.
It should be noted that while Clan heavy lasers are deadly in the
extreme—a Series 6A heavy medium laser can dish out the same destructive
force as an Inner Sphere PartiKill PPC—all of that fi repower comes
with a price measured in more than just reduced range. With the increased
power, interference attributed to an intentional shielding reduction
around the laser emitters (as well as a noticeable “pre-charge” phase that
adds a subtle firing delay with every trigger pull) plays havoc with these
weapons’ accuracy.
Heavy lasers come in small, medium, and large sizes only.
According to all reliable reports, scientists from one of the Home
Clans—the Star Adders—pioneered the so-called heavy laser series in
the waning days of 3059. The development dramatically increased the
size of the barrels, focusing crystals and power feeds of extant Clan lasers
to produce a weapon system capable of delivering far greater firepower
per blast. Though the heavy lasers lost much of the range advantage
enjoyed by Clan ER lasers (they actually fell closer to Spheroid standard
range profiles), the real innovation wasn’t so much the laser design itself
as the fact that its creation broke what amounted to more than a century
of technological stagnation among Kerensky’s children.
It should be noted that while Clan heavy lasers are deadly in the
extreme—a Series 6A heavy medium laser can dish out the same destructive
force as an Inner Sphere PartiKill PPC—all of that fi repower comes
with a price measured in more than just reduced range. With the increased
power, interference attributed to an intentional shielding reduction
around the laser emitters (as well as a noticeable “pre-charge” phase that
adds a subtle firing delay with every trigger pull) plays havoc with these
weapons’ accuracy.
Heavy lasers come in small, medium, and large sizes only.
Note: They compare the firepower to a very, VERY specific PPC, the PartiKill. This is very common, and if one took the time to learn the unique weapon variants and subvariants, this isn't just a trend to sound cool, the individual weapons may 'fit' within generic classes but they function very differently.
From Pulse Lasers under TechManual (for those wondering where I came up with "Laser Machine Guns")
Quote
The pulse laser uses rapid-cycling, high-energy pulses to generate multiple
laser beams, creating an effect comparable to machine-gun fire. But
because the staggered pulses give the protective ablation products from
combat armor a chance to disperse—to expose fresh armor to subsequent
pulses—the result is a burst of fire that is more effective and accurate.
laser beams, creating an effect comparable to machine-gun fire. But
because the staggered pulses give the protective ablation products from
combat armor a chance to disperse—to expose fresh armor to subsequent
pulses—the result is a burst of fire that is more effective and accurate.
Specific laser reference under Medium Lasers from TechManual
Quote
Indeed, by the end of the Fourth Succession War, there remained almost fifty distinct
standard laser models still in active production, with Martell’s
medium laser line—considered by far the most efficient for the tonnage—
manufactured on as many as six worlds.
standard laser models still in active production, with Martell’s
medium laser line—considered by far the most efficient for the tonnage—
manufactured on as many as six worlds.
It is noteworthy the most powerful medium laser is the Rassal Blue Beam; it isn't considered the most efficient however because it causes a plethora of problems including ElectroMagnetic Interference on yourself and extra heat due to poor weight allowed for its sub-par Cooling Jacket . The price of Pinpoint Front Loaded Damage to the Nth degree.
TechManual: PPC
Quote
The energy-based equivalent of the Gauss rifle, the particle projector
cannon (PPC for short) is one of the most powerful non-ballistic
weapons ever devised for the modern battlefield. Consisting of a
magnetic accelerator, firing high-energy proton or ion bolts, PPCs can
flay armor through kinetic and thermal damage. While popular belief
may hold that PPCs are an electromagnetic weapon, it’s worth mentioning
that even though most PPC bolts look like a fl ash of manmade
lightning, the actual electrical component of a PPC attack is little more
than an intense burst of static.
In widespread use today are two primary PPC types: the standard
and extended-range (or ER) versions. [Once again, Professor Habeas
was unaware of the advent of three new PPC types the Draconis
Combine had managed to produce for export. Even as he was putting
the fi nal touches to this document, the Combine had begun to share
their light and heavy PPC models with the Free Worlds League as part
of a secret tech trade. –EB]
----
Introduced: 2460 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: Circa 2820 (Clan only)
The standard PPC is the favored “big gun” of lighter ’Mech classes and
long-distance raiders that can’t aff ord to pay the tonnage for big ballistics
like the Gauss rifl e or autocannon/20. Once considered the apex of energy
weapon technology, these particle cannons have excellent reach for the
tactical battlefield and can vaporize about two tons of standard militarygrade
armor in just three solid hits. Unfortunately, they are less effective at
ranges of less than 90 meters, as the particle fi elds at this range are deliberately
inhibited by the weapon design. This feature—hardwired to every
standard PPC model from the Donals produced in the Taurian Concordat
to the Parti-Kills made on New Earth—is an electronics safety feature,
intended to prevent the unfocused static of a discharging PPC from
overloading the firing unit’s electronics. The enhancements that make
ER models possible overcame this drawback, though the original models
have remained popular for their lower cost and centuries of reliability.
The Clans discontinued use of the standard PPC after developing their
own ER version, which is lighter and more compact than the original
design. Akin to their treatment of standard autocannon and laser weapons,
the heirs of Kerensky apparently relegated the somewhat “advancedstandard”
models they had designed to the scrap heaps or solahma duty
sometime around the 2820s, leaving only a handful to survive to the
modern era—typically on DropShip hulls.
cannon (PPC for short) is one of the most powerful non-ballistic
weapons ever devised for the modern battlefield. Consisting of a
magnetic accelerator, firing high-energy proton or ion bolts, PPCs can
flay armor through kinetic and thermal damage. While popular belief
may hold that PPCs are an electromagnetic weapon, it’s worth mentioning
that even though most PPC bolts look like a fl ash of manmade
lightning, the actual electrical component of a PPC attack is little more
than an intense burst of static.
In widespread use today are two primary PPC types: the standard
and extended-range (or ER) versions. [Once again, Professor Habeas
was unaware of the advent of three new PPC types the Draconis
Combine had managed to produce for export. Even as he was putting
the fi nal touches to this document, the Combine had begun to share
their light and heavy PPC models with the Free Worlds League as part
of a secret tech trade. –EB]
----
Introduced: 2460 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: Circa 2820 (Clan only)
The standard PPC is the favored “big gun” of lighter ’Mech classes and
long-distance raiders that can’t aff ord to pay the tonnage for big ballistics
like the Gauss rifl e or autocannon/20. Once considered the apex of energy
weapon technology, these particle cannons have excellent reach for the
tactical battlefield and can vaporize about two tons of standard militarygrade
armor in just three solid hits. Unfortunately, they are less effective at
ranges of less than 90 meters, as the particle fi elds at this range are deliberately
inhibited by the weapon design. This feature—hardwired to every
standard PPC model from the Donals produced in the Taurian Concordat
to the Parti-Kills made on New Earth—is an electronics safety feature,
intended to prevent the unfocused static of a discharging PPC from
overloading the firing unit’s electronics. The enhancements that make
ER models possible overcame this drawback, though the original models
have remained popular for their lower cost and centuries of reliability.
The Clans discontinued use of the standard PPC after developing their
own ER version, which is lighter and more compact than the original
design. Akin to their treatment of standard autocannon and laser weapons,
the heirs of Kerensky apparently relegated the somewhat “advancedstandard”
models they had designed to the scrap heaps or solahma duty
sometime around the 2820s, leaving only a handful to survive to the
modern era—typically on DropShip hulls.
Bet you saw "it." Just hold it until after you read ER PPC.
ER PPC; TechManual
Quote
Introduced: 2760 (Terran Hegemony)
Extinct: 2860 (Inner Sphere)
Recovered: 3037 (Draconis Combine)
The extended-range version of the particle projector cannon was
one of the last weapons advancements of the Star League, debuting
just seven years before the start of Stefan Amaris’ coup. Essentially
achieving its superior range through sheer brute force, the ER version
of the PPC runs fifty percent hotter than its standard-model
progenitor, but gains a third more range and is eff ective from muzzle
to maximum range—all for the same tonnage and bulk. (The Clan version, by comparison, is a bit more compact and one ton lighter, but
gains an extra fi fty percent of thermo-kinetic damage at no signifi cant
increase in reach.)
ER PPCs reached their apex in the fi nal days of the Star League with
Terra-based Martinson Armaments’ Kinslaughter H-Class, mounted on the
SPT-N2 Spartan. The Draconis Combine managed to revive the technology
shortly before the War of 3039, but only a handful of these weapons
reached the fi eld during that confl ict. By the time of the Clan Invasion,
this re-proven technology was back in broad production, with Ceres Arms,
Defi ance Industries and Johnston Industries all among the chief producers
of the upgraded models.
Extinct: 2860 (Inner Sphere)
Recovered: 3037 (Draconis Combine)
The extended-range version of the particle projector cannon was
one of the last weapons advancements of the Star League, debuting
just seven years before the start of Stefan Amaris’ coup. Essentially
achieving its superior range through sheer brute force, the ER version
of the PPC runs fifty percent hotter than its standard-model
progenitor, but gains a third more range and is eff ective from muzzle
to maximum range—all for the same tonnage and bulk. (The Clan version, by comparison, is a bit more compact and one ton lighter, but
gains an extra fi fty percent of thermo-kinetic damage at no signifi cant
increase in reach.)
ER PPCs reached their apex in the fi nal days of the Star League with
Terra-based Martinson Armaments’ Kinslaughter H-Class, mounted on the
SPT-N2 Spartan. The Draconis Combine managed to revive the technology
shortly before the War of 3039, but only a handful of these weapons
reached the fi eld during that confl ict. By the time of the Clan Invasion,
this re-proven technology was back in broad production, with Ceres Arms,
Defi ance Industries and Johnston Industries all among the chief producers
of the upgraded models.
Tech Manual uses "discharge" as the term... and frying electronics? Doesn't match what any of us has shared, does it? It also fails to explain the explosion you must do of 10 damage if the PPC explodes on you, but note this is lore written by WizKidz and published in 2007.
Wizkidz is known for this level of technical aptitude,
so whatever they didn't get from the Battletech Condopendium and other sources... seems quite contrived.My point is the lore changes hands and companies time and time again, and changes as it goes along. So gather it all together, and remember that Battletech as a game invites you to choose what you accept.
I personally favor much of the 1980s lore as that was rooted in visits to see actual military hardware in action as well as the more 'realistic robot' TV shows, as opposed to the "borderline Super Robot" versions of those shows that came out in the 90s (I'm looking at you, Gundam).
One of the few shows from that era that kept to its true realistic roots is Patlabor.
Many of Battletech's advanced tabletop mechanics can be found in this scene, from breaking part of the "Labor" (Mech)'s body while trying to manuever in a cramped space, to the effectual difference between a Mech Rifle (the Labor's shotgun) versus an Autocannon (the weapon used by the Quads) which explains why the significantly more powerful Mech Rifle was phased out (to note, however, Autocannon rounds in Battletech explode after impact as they are HEAP, High Explosive Armor Piercing, and by AP they just 'kinda dig in' before going boom, they don't actually pierce armor as in go through it).
More advanced tabletop mechanics: Temporary blindness (flare SRMs, Spotlight, others), ECM, Pilot Consciousness and Fatigue, Melee (Kick, Grapple), unintended targets (a rule for dense areas of trees or buildings, a roll to check for accidental damage or spread of damage to unintended secondary targets; the rule is especially fun for PPCs as you must roll to check if you started an accidental fire; the flames of which generate 2 heat per 10 seconds). Pilot Injury due to impact near cockpit. Modular weapons for Mech Hands (an 'early' FASA thing that got reintroduced with the company Catalyst Games; weapons like those of the Phoenix Hawk in MWO). Infantry support. Infantry-used Anti-Material Rifle (you can kill a 'Mech with one of these provided you make shots for the cockpit). Flooding. Mech-activated switches.
That's in a very brief amount of time, too. Battletech is an amazing thing to play, but sadly while tabletop provides the most amazing freedom and realism you can hope for, the time consuming nature of including 'everything' without the use of something like Megamek to play Battletech is far more than even above-average fans can hope to spend.
----
Now that the baby is sleeping, it's time for a nap before work. Goodnight.
Edited by Koniving, 23 September 2016 - 11:05 PM.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
