112 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Juodas Varnas, on 23 September 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

Clan Autocannons (non-ultra) aren't even supposed to be a thing.

They're supposed to be a placeholder for Clan LBXs with slug rounds, but since PGI can't figure out how to make switchable ammunition...
Seriously, don't use them. Ultras are better in every way.

Yep. Clan's got rid of standard ACs because the LB-X weapons were mutli-role in that they are supposed to be able to function just like a standard AC or fire cluster munitions.

As far as how the standard Clan AC's function in game, just about everyone used to feel the same way you do, that they would function just like IS AC in that they should fire a single shot. You should be able to choose C-ACs for that single shot damage, C-UAC's for that double tap DPS and C-LB-X for cluster shots in my opinion.

[Mcgral18]

Viktor Drake, on 28 September 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

As far as how the standard Clan AC's function in game, just about everyone used to feel the same way you do, that they would function just like IS AC in that they should fire a single shot. You should be able to choose C-ACs for that single shot damage, C-UAC's for that double tap DPS and C-LB-X for cluster shots in my opinion.

If they were larger, and took some extra weight, sure

Otherwise, they'll need an intermediary place, a buff but THAT buff.

Edited by Mcgral18, 28 September 2016 - 01:02 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

If they were larger, and took some extra weight, sure

Honestly they would be fine if the IS ACs were buffed in some way like velocity. The Clan AC's already suffer in the DPS department (and I don't mind them suffering more or getting their heat increased) thanks to them getting preemptively nerfed since their introduction.

I agree with Viktor that C-ACs being single shot would give them a unique place in the Clan arsenal, more unique than simply buffing their velocity would simply because they are still a burst weapon. Maybe if C-UACs had longer burst durations that way they could be the pulse to the C-UACs standard lasers or something that could be interesting, but even then they are competing for the same role just like standard and pulse do.

If we feel like the PPFLD version of C-ACs can never be balanced or should be a gaping hole in the Clan arsenal then the weapon itself shouldn't exist.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 September 2016 - 01:21 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Clans do not need that place filled. If you want FLD ACs, you play Inner Sphere; that is part of the whole "flavor" equation we have in this game.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2016 - 01:48 PM, said:

Clans do not need that place filled. If you want FLD ACs, you play Inner Sphere; that is part of the whole "flavor" equation we have in this game.

Then C-ACs don't need to be in the game.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 September 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 01:59 PM, said:

Then C-ACs don't need to be in the game.

An I am totally fine with that. It was always inconsistent for PGI to even pay lip service to the ammo switching nature of LB-X on the Clan side, but not the IS. I would rather they get rid of cAC than give the IS a craptastic burst - fire AC.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Question then is, what happens if we ever got future tech, which means larger UACs for the IS like the UAC10 and UAC20? Would they still be single shot then?

[Mcgral18]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Question then is, what happens if we ever got future tech, which means larger UACs for the IS like the UAC10 and UAC20? Would they still be single shot then?

A -1 compared to Clam stuff still adds up

1=ac5
2=ac10
3=uac20

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 28 September 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

A -1 compared to Clam stuff still adds up

1=ac5
2=ac10
3=uac20

That leaves the 2 sort of in a bad situation.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

That leaves the 2 sort of in a bad situation.

To be fair, even the Clan UItra 2 is in a mediocre position as it is.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 28 September 2016 - 02:55 PM, said:

To be fair, even the Clan UItra 2 is in a mediocre position as it is.

That still doesn't mean it is a good way to balance the two especially since it still leaves the normal AC2 in a bad position as well.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 03:02 PM, said:

That still doesn't mean it is a good way to balance the two especially since it still leaves the normal AC2 in a bad position as well.

Well, in order to give the IS UAC/2 a shorter burst than the Clan version, that would require us to give the Clan version a burst like it used to have. That in turn would require some sort of other buff to offset it...

Class-2 ACs are really a mess to differentiate...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 28 September 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

Well, in order to give the IS UAC/2 a shorter burst than the Clan version, that would require us to give the Clan version a burst like it used to have. That in turn would require some sort of other buff to offset it...

Class-2 ACs are really a mess to differentiate...

It is almost like having the damage of the ACs halve at each step down from the 20 was a bad idea for the purpose of an FPS....which is why Paul will never agree to it.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

It is almost like having the damage of the ACs halve at each step down from the 20 was a bad idea for the purpose of an FPS....which is why Paul will never agree to it.

It's worse because the AC/2 isn't even half, it's less than half. It should've been the AC/2.5.

And its heat didn't get divided the same as the normal pattern either, it's supposed to round down but TT rounded it up (would have been 0 if the pattern was followed).

Edited by FupDup, 28 September 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

Question then is, what happens if we ever got future tech, which means larger UACs for the IS like the UAC10 and UAC20? Would they still be single shot then?

With how big and heavy they are, I don't see why not.

The isUAC/20 has the weight of a Gauss rifle, but can't be fit into a side torso with an XL, limiting it to 'Mechs with no lower arm actuators or 'Mechs heavy enough to run it with a STD. Even a Jager is only going to be able to comfortably fit ~35 rounds, and that's only 750 damage that it will chew through rather quickly if it can survive long enough to shoot at all. For assaults, at best you would end up with something that is the short-range equivalent to the quad-10 KDK-3 before the nerf, but that checks itself with the risk inherent to closing that distance in something relatively slow and/or squishy. Ghost heat and Energy Draw both put the kibosh on running a pair of them, at any rate.

The isUAC/10 is going to be the poor-man's AC/20, which itself is a bit misleading because it would be far and away superior to the isAC/20. That being said, it's also not really boatable beyond 2 owing to the 8 slots it will consume and it won't play well with other ACs. It'll be fantastic on 'Mechs like the Jager and Rifleman. Both it and the UAC/20 will help 'Mechs like the Marauder mitigate the fact that all of their ballistics are stacked on one side, too. Still won't play nice with similarly-ranged lasers.

For fixing AC/2, I wouldn't mind if they fired a three-round burst with a 0.1 second interval, totaling 6 damage, but with a cool-down of 2.06 seconds so the DPS is identical to the single-shot AC/2 with a cool-down of 0.72 seconds that we have now. I can think of many uses for such a weapon (doubling up gives you an economy-class Gauss Rifle, for example).

[Deadead]

Wall of text incoming:

I am a primarily clan player. All my favorite mechs are clan save my firestarter FS-9 and unless there is a prize i want during an event, i play CW on the clan side over IS almost exclusively simply because big Jade Falcon fan. also, my preferred engagement range is sub-270 with 350 being my second preference. i mostly build clan brawlers and close-mid range component cutters. i would personally benefit GREATLY from having some PPFLD options. i present all this in advanced lest someone think i am biased towards inner sphere and part of the "nerf clans plx all clans OP" crowd.

Having said that. CLANS DO NOT NEED a PPFLD AC option. DO NOT NEED. this would be SO BAD for the game.

Here is my reasoning.

Clantech has a quite a few great things going for it. longer range, lighter weapons, more Damage per ton then most IS mechs even AFTER quirk bonuses (though IS does have some ridiculous exceptions). flexibility of UAC sizes that makes this even more so. The cost of our advantage is everything runs real hot, and EVERYTHING spreads. Longer laser burns = more spread, multiple projectile uac's = more spread. srms, well... are srms (iirc PGI actually gave clan ones wider spread in a previous patch unless they changed it back) and our streaming lrms spread even MORE then IS ones do. I am ok with all this. even our ER-PPC spreads and runs hotter. almost every clan weapon follows this design philosophy.

In IS has more precise damage and cooler weapons, and sometimes a little more structure. that's it. granted that can be a lot, especially during a brawl or when actually using cover. my favorite lights are all IS for a good reason. but this is how the trade-off works.
IS gets the pinpoint and near pinpoint weapons. the cost they pay is that they are lower in damage (on average), shorter range ( on average), HEAVIER guns and harder engine choices. (std and lacking in guns for clan survivability or XL for near clanlike punch at the cost of severe fragility.)

Give us clan-tech PPFLD and there won't be a single IS player left in the game. may as well delete the innersphere.

i completely agree regular clan AC are useless. and they look/sound much better and should be useful instead of a money trap for new players.
there are other ways to make them useful. the reduced ghost heat is almost tempting enough to make the 10s and 20s attractive to me,but not quite enough.
reducing the heat on them all by half a point, changing the ghost heat, reducing number of projectiles by 1 while upping per projectile dmg to maintain the same dmg output, increasing velocity of the rounds OR reducing the delay between projectiles vs clan UAC are all great ways to do so. making them single shot tank cannons ALA the Inner Sphere is really not, and in my view a terrible terrible idea.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

The isUAC/20 has the weight of a Gauss rifle, but can't be fit into a side torso with an XL, limiting it to 'Mechs with no lower arm actuators or 'Mechs heavy enough to run it with a STD

The problem there is that the AC20 has the exact same problems, and dropping a couple medium lasers to potentially double your effective DPS is definitely worth it for a mech that is wanting to do short range poking, which is more than the CUAC20 can say.

[Y E O N N E]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 September 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

The problem there is that the AC20 has the exact same problems, and dropping a couple medium lasers to potentially double your effective DPS is definitely worth it for a mech that is wanting to do short range poking, which is more than the CUAC20 can say.

I don't disagree that the cUAC/20 is underwhelming and could certainly use some help (perhaps drop it to three round burst, too), but remember that the cUAC/20 is going to be paired with bundles of cERSL or cSPL that provide you with similar strike capability, usually on 'Mechs that can move much faster (i.e. Storm Crow).

The isUAC/20, on the other hand, is going to come with one or two MedLas on the Mediums which will run at a max of 87 kph versus the 106 of the Storm Crow. On Heavies, you can reasonably bundle it with between five and seven Medium Lasers, but your speed is going to run between 70 and 75 kph versus the 87 you would get on a Clan 'Mech doing the 7x cSPL + cUAC/20 thing, and you'll have less heat dissipation. The alphas will be similar between the two, with the Inner Sphere having better range and initial strike and the Clan having superior speed and follow-through. For Assault class, you'll lumber along at an incredible 60 kph and be out-ranged by everybody else; it's really no better than a brawler Atlas.


Honestly, it's pretty well-balanced. At every corner the IS tech set checks itself, which you can't say for Clan tech. The isUAC/20 looks super appealing on paper, but in practice it will merely make the IS somewhat more competitive with the Clans on their own merit rather than through complete reliance on weapon quirks. I think it would be a positive addition to the game.

(Also, it looks like the isUAC/20 has a range of 300, versus the 270 on the standard AC/20. This is awesome.)

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

but remember that the cUAC/20 is going to be paired with bundles of cERSL or cSPL that provide you with similar strike capability, usually on 'Mechs that can move much faster (i.e. Storm Crow).

Similar strike capability maybe, but not as good because of velocity differentials and heat cost.

Yeonne Greene, on 28 September 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

The isUAC/20 looks super appealing on paper, but in practice it will merely make the IS somewhat more competitive with the Clans on their own merit rather than through complete reliance on weapon quirks.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing that, but that is mostly because very few can mount it with an XL, and we all know how important speed is in a brawl.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 September 2016 - 06:02 PM.

[Alex Morgaine]

Ragingdemon, on 24 September 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Loves me some EDs :3