515 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Lets talk Clan Omnis.

When first announced, the idea was a literal translation of Build Restrictions. That lasted about as long as it took for a few worthies to look at Sarna and realize that well, some Omnis had really crappy armor.

And so the concession to allow one to modify the amount of armor, but not the type, was made. The other "Locked Core" restrictions were kept in place. And this seemed... mostly kinda maybe OK, sort of, for a while. (OK, not really, please refer to my http://mwomercs.com/...w/page__st__640 Topic)

But then came the inevitable IICs and other Clan Battlemechs. With hardpoint inflation and unlocked cores, they are as a base concept, superior to Omnis, with most Quirks being used as a bandaid to keep some Omnis on top---ish.

It's past time to fix this. In virtually all cases, top Clan performers already have Endo, or Endo and Ferro, with the few exceptions being Assault Mechs, that need space more than tonnage. It's been theory crafted to death, Endo for Omnis, would not upset the apple cart, but allow a more consistent balance across the board, which in turn makes global balance easier to calculate and achieve.

Simply put, Locked Engine Size, Fixed Base Heatsinks and Lack of Hardpoint Inflation are more than sufficient to differentiate Omnis from Battlemechs.

Instead if relying on Quirks to allow a few dogs to be pigeonholed into a select few "viable" builds, most of which are not remotely close to their intended designs... unlock the dang Ferro and Endo to allow us the ability to make more diverse builds with Omnis.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 06 October 2016 - 04:11 PM.

[El Bandito]

Sure. I want to build my Hellbringer more killy, anyway.

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 02 October 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Sure. I want to build my Hellbringer more killy, anyway.

It's not like they are actually top flight unstoppable Meta Mechs, so yeah.

[Spheroid]

Didn't you at one point consider yourself a lore hound? I can't believe you are suggesting this.

Also why should PGI do this when it will eliminate any market for the future successors to these chassis that do include endo?

Crap mechs would have a point if logistics were an actual thing and IIC mechs were the frowned garrison mechs that they were in TT. Summoners and Hellbringers were very common and widely fielded. You take what is available. Too bad CW is dead.

[Bishop Steiner]

Spheroid, on 02 October 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Didn't you at one point consider yourself a lore hound? I can't believe you are suggesting this.

Also why should PGI do this when it will eliminate any market for the future successors to these chassis that do include endo?

Crap mechs would have a point if logistics were an actual thing and IIC mechs were the frowned garrison mechs that they were in TT. Summoners and Hellbringers were very common and widely fielded. You take what is available. Too bad CW is dead.

Does this game remotely look like it gives a damn about Lore?

If it did, these mechs wouldn't need Endo to compete. But since it's a MinMax paradise, with all kinds of brokeass mechanics?

Let's try to keep it real here, bro. And again, you might notice I have been stumping for the Endo thing for like..2. years.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 October 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

It's not like they are actually top flight unstoppable Meta Mechs, so yeah.

With the HBR-F coming to my stable with its lovely RT energy hardpoint, it is gonna be a prime hill humping ECM mech for me. Better at that job than the Timberwolf, or even [Night Gyr] for that matter.

Edited by draiocht, 21 October 2016 - 06:03 AM.
language

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 02 October 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

With the HBR-F coming to my stable with its lovely RT energy hardpoint, it is gonna be a prime hill humping ECM mech for me.

and yet, not too worried.

Moving on.

[Spheroid]

If you are chasing meta, why do you care. That sixty-five ton monster you seek is the Rifleman-IIC. There is no need to unlock ferro at all. That decision will NEVER be reversed. Think carefully.

Edited by Spheroid, 02 October 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[Glaive-]

Speaking of hardpoint inflation on Clan Battlemechs, that is something which should have never happened (except for certain exceptions). The Jenner IIC especially didn't need it.

[Felbombling]

I own a lot of Clan Mechs, and looking at the list of quirks on the Summoner chassis, trying to make it competitive with the Timber Wolf, tells me that this would be a good idea. The unlocking of Endo-steel won't fix the lack of hard-points the chassis suffers, though.

Having said that, the Clan Mechs do appear to be superior to the majority of Inner Sphere Mechs, so I'm not certain that unlocking Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous Armour would be a good thing for game balance. Balance within the Clan pool of Mechs, sure, but not overall.

[El Bandito]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 October 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

and yet, not too worried.

Moving on.

Perhaps, but there is always the 2xCUAC10 + 4xCUAC5 Dire Whale, once it can unlock Endo. That thing will create a new tin can opening record. And once again the forums will be filled with tears. And once again Paul will blanket nerf the wrong issue.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 October 2016 - 09:46 AM.

[dervishx5]

In the past this would have triggered me.

Considering the nature of the game and how shallow it is, well...

[Gamuray]

StaggerCheck, on 02 October 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

I own a lot of Clan Mechs, and looking at the list of quirks on the Summoner chassis, trying to make it competitive with the Timber Wolf, tells me that this would be a good idea. The unlocking of Endo-steel won't fix the lack of hard-points the chassis suffers, though.

Having said that, the Clan Mechs do appear to be superior to the majority of Inner Sphere Mechs, so I'm not certain that unlocking Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous Armour would be a good thing for game balance. Balance within the Clan pool of Mechs, sure, but not overall.

I mean, they could introduce drawbacks... Agility or internal structure health debuffs when you use endo. Ferro.... hm... potential for crits on the armor or higher crit chance on internals once armor is removed?

Of course, the drawbacks for IS would need to be less severe than that for Clan mechs, since clans mech upgrades take up half the space of IS upgrades, with the same weight savings.

Oh yeah, and drawbacks to "upgrades" would also make it an actual decision... more weight, or more durability/agility? Meh, just some ideas.

[Yellonet]

Clan mechs already OP, so what the hell, eh?

[Mcgral18]

Gamuray, on 02 October 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

I mean, they could introduce drawbacks... Agility or internal structure health debuffs when you use endo. Ferro.... hm... potential for crits on the armor or higher crit chance on internals once armor is removed?

You mean Structure buffs and increased armour caps from STD structure and FF armour

[Gamuray]

Mcgral18, on 02 October 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

You mean Structure buffs and increased armour caps from STD structure and FF armour

Well... sure, does the same thing. I guess buffing the standards increases TTK... so we can go with that!

[Graugger]

Hey while we're at it let's lock all IS mechs to having stock weapons.

[Lucian Nostra]

StaggerCheck, on 02 October 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

I own a lot of Clan Mechs, and looking at the list of quirks on the Summoner chassis, trying to make it competitive with the Timber Wolf, tells me that this would be a good idea. The unlocking of Endo-steel won't fix the lack of hard-points the chassis suffers, though.

Having said that, the Clan Mechs do appear to be superior to the majority of Inner Sphere Mechs, so I'm not certain that unlocking Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous Armour would be a good thing for game balance. Balance within the Clan pool of Mechs, sure, but not overall.

Exactly, to balance the clan mechs you need to first balance them against eachother. Every time they blanket nerf the clans because of the Timber Wolf or some other meta machine, mechs like the endo poor feel it the most because they are already sub-par choices. Bringing all clan mechs into line with each other in terms of construction is a start to balancing the clans as a whole.

The Nova, Mad Dog, Hellbringer, Summoner, and Gargoyle could really use it. Mechs like the Warhawk and Executioner would love to swap that FF for Endo.

If not than they should go back to the IS mechs and lock the structure types. Let those that have endo reign supreme over those that don't have endo for literally no reason

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 02 October 2016 - 09:54 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Hello it's me your friendly neighborhood modderman,
As with Bishops previous topic long ago I once again heed the call and support his message,

[Coralld]

I say no because its going to create far more balance problems then it will solve.

This game already has enough issues as it is, pouring gasoline on the fire in the name of "balance" is short sighted and ill-thought out because of the law of unintended consequences.

Edited by Coralld, 02 October 2016 - 10:08 AM.